| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 90 91 92 93 94 95 96 97 98 99 100 101 102 103 104 105 106 107 108 109 110 111 112 113 114 115 116 117 118 119 120 121 122 123 124 125 126 127 128 129 130 131 132 133 134 135 136 137 138 139 140 141 142 143 144 145 146 147 148 149 150 151 152 153 154 155 156 157 158 159 160 161 162 163 164 165 166 167 168 169 170 171 172 173 174 175 176 177 178 179 180 181 182 183] > | Should “native language” claims be verified? Thread poster: XXXphxxx (X)
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BeaDeer (X) 
English to Slovenian
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| My dentist also calls his work an art and, properly done, it is. But he does it to make a living | Jul 2, 2012 |
LilianBoland wrote:
I don't really like when people call translation a business -- it is art, more than anything else.
[Edited at 2012-07-01 15:01 GMT]
[Edited at 2012-07-01 15:13 GMT]
Yes, it is an art, when done properly, no argument on that.
But have you ever seen a good artist that does not know their craft.
I haven't.
[Edited at 2012-07-02 08:55 GMT]
[Edited at 2012-07-02 12:18 GMT]
[Edited at 2012-07-02 12:18 GMT]
| | | | Samuel Murray
Netherlands
Local time: 17:26
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
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| @Alan w.r.t. whether you are near native | Jul 2, 2012 |
Alan Wang wrote:
I am lately given to the tantalizing delusion that I might qualify for "near native status" when it comes to translating from Chinese to English.
I hope you don't mind, but I'd like to comment on your near-nativeness in English by analysing your introduction on your ProZ.com profile page. I would not evaluate your forum posts because forum posts are written quickly and conversationally, but a translator's profile page is usually tweaked until perfection, so what he writes in his profile page is what he believes is correct language, don't you agree? I would not evaluate a résumé as strictly either, since résumés tend to be written according to marketing rules (odd phrase sequences to move keywords to the start of the sentence, etc).
Your text:
Technical translation: I worked as a technical translator for 8 years (from 2000~[1]2007) at a[2] appliance maker[3], where my job description was to translate patents (English to Chinese), inter-company contracts and product testing and certification norms, and [4]design and edit user manuals, etc. After that, I worked briefly at a translation agency as a translator, proofreader and project manager. As a project manager, my first job was a[5] engine control system[6] manual (Chinese to English). I coordinated 3 person's[7] work and translated a third of the manual. Since end 2007[8], I became[9] a freelance translator.
My comments (I'm non-native in English, and I use South African English):
1. The tilde is not used in ZA English at all, except in mathematical texts (but not in the meaning "to"), though I suspect that it may be acceptable in US English. By the way, I prefer not to use a hyphen for "to" if I have used "from", but that is just my preference and I understand that some people do not regard that as an error.
2. an.
3. My feeling is that "maker" should be used for a human or a single machine only. The word you need to use here is "manufacturer".
4. I would have included the word "to" after "and".
5. an.
6. In my mind of minds I can "hear" an "s" here, which is not a possesive (systems manual, not system manual), but that is just a feeling I have.
7.1 The plural of person is persons, not person's.
7.2 I would use "persons" only in very formal or officialese types of texts. Here, "people" would be more appropriate.
8. I understand that "since end 2007" is acceptable in some Englishes, but in ZA English that would have to be "since [the] end of 2007".
9. Should be either "Since the end of 2007, I have been" or "At the end of 2007, I became".
Now its time for the native English speakers in this thread to tell me (for interest sake) which of my comments above are false positives, and if I had missed anything. I'd also like to know which of these errors are "non-native" errors as opposed to simply schoolboy errors (perhaps Phil can tell us, since he is the Chinese-English translator here).
[Edited at 2012-07-02 08:40 GMT]
| | | | Michele Fauble
United States
Local time: 08:26
Member (2006)
Norwegian to English
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| Non-native errors | Jul 2, 2012 |
Samuel Murray wrote:
Now its time for the native English speakers in this thread to tell me (for interest sake) which of my comments above are false positives, and if I had missed anything. I'd also like to know which of these errors are "non-native" errors as opposed to simply schoolboy errors (perhaps Phil can tell us, since he is the Chinese-English translator here).
Only 7 and 8,9 (in fact, the last sentence as a whole) are unequivocally non-native errors.
| | | | | That's not me who attacks :-) | Jul 2, 2012 |
Lisa Simpson, MCIL wrote: Catherine GUILLIAUMET wrote:
But, it has nothing to do with the new verification of "nativeness" procedure that you are asking for.
If it has something to do with your present demands, then why all this fuss ? Applying for the Certified Pro system should be sufficient, but it is not, apparently.
Catherine My comment was not directed at you but was a comment on the site. You misunderstood. My issue is with the lack of distinction between a Certified Pro and the rest and the fact that everyone on this site should actually be a "Certified Pro" (as a minimum) otherwise the name of the site is a complete misnomer. It has everything to do with verification of "nativeness" but I believe site rules don't allow me to discuss this any further so there it must end, Jared touched upon it in his contribution to this thread.
Strangely, I am not obviously alone to have understood that your sentence : The Certified Pro system has been in place for how many years (?) and yet this very regular and long-standing site user isn't aware that this distinction is already there. was applying to me.
I'm not sure who is misunderstanding and attacking, here
But it does not matter. At least, I answered with humour, not with invectives and false accusations as a header.
But, really, this is superficial and does not deserve interest.
Catherine
[Edited at 2012-07-02 09:02 GMT]
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Samuel Murray
Netherlands
Local time: 17:26
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
| Non-native errors are language-specific | Jul 2, 2012 |
Michele Fauble wrote: Samuel Murray wrote:
I'd also like to know which of these errors are "non-native" errors as opposed to simply schoolboy errors (perhaps Phil can tell us, since he is the Chinese-English translator here). Only 7 and 8,9 (in fact, the last sentence as a whole) are unequivocally non-native errors.
Thanks, Michele, but I think that non-native errors are mostly language-specific. For example, some languages don't have articles in places where English has articles, so if a translator who speaks such a language leaves out an article in a place where there should have been one, then we can speculate that it might have been due to interference from his other language. But if all of his languages are langauges with articles in those places, then leaving out an article in English would not be due to language interference but simply sloppiness.
I'm pretty sure that not writing a space after a comma in e.g. "7 and 8,9" is not typical in any of your source languages, so it is safe to infer that leaving out the space is not due to some kind of influence of your source languages but simply because you were in a hurry, so for you it would not be a non-native error (although for someone else it may well have been one).
[Edited at 2012-07-02 09:51 GMT]
| | | | XXXphxxx (X)
United Kingdom
Local time: 16:26
Portuguese to English
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TOPIC STARTER | Let me try and explain one last time | Jul 2, 2012 |
Catherine GUILLIAUMET wrote: Lisa Simpson, MCIL wrote: Catherine GUILLIAUMET wrote:
But, it has nothing to do with the new verification of "nativeness" procedure that you are asking for.
If it has something to do with your present demands, then why all this fuss ? Applying for the Certified Pro system should be sufficient, but it is not, apparently.
Catherine My comment was not directed at you but was a comment on the site. You misunderstood. My issue is with the lack of distinction between a Certified Pro and the rest and the fact that everyone on this site should actually be a "Certified Pro" (as a minimum) otherwise the name of the site is a complete misnomer. It has everything to do with verification of "nativeness" but I believe site rules don't allow me to discuss this any further so there it must end, Jared touched upon it in his contribution to this thread. Strangely, I am not obviously alone to have understood that your sentence : The Certified Pro system has been in place for how many years (?) and yet this very regular and long-standing site user isn't aware that this distinction is already there. was applying to me. I'm not sure who is misunderstanding and attacking, here
Yes, it does apply to you, but if you had read my previous thread you would see my point that I do not see that there a clear distinction between Certified Pros and everyone else at the moment. Even someone like you, who has been on the site since its inception and is a regular user cannot see the distinction. I don't think many/any of us can (including myself). Off-topic but hopefully clarified now.
| | | | Samuel Murray
Netherlands
Local time: 17:26
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
| The distinction is clear (but what does it matter)? | Jul 2, 2012 |
Lisa Simpson, MCIL wrote:
My point [is] that I do not see that there a clear distinction between Certified Pros and everyone else at the moment.
I'm not sure I follow. I'm sure red pee members get more jobs that the rest of us, simply because there is an option in the search function to exclude non-red pee members. Red pee members are also indicated very clearly using a highly visible red pee sign on their profiles and everywhere that their names are listed or mentioned. To become a red pee club member requires that your peers validate that you are an acceptably good translator -- i.e. you can't just become a red pee member by your own actions, and Staff can't just make you one either (unless you're one of the first in your language combination).
As far as I understand, native language verification is not part of red pee club membership, but it could be made part of it. The red pee club is a small club at this time (e.g. 45000 Spanish translators in total, but fewer than 500 Spanish red pee members in total), so introducing mandatory native language checking for existing members in addition to new ones should not be out of the question.
| | | | | I think this is all insane | Jul 2, 2012 |
I think this is all insane -- some peoples' writing has been dissected on the forum -- I am not sure if this is even allowed according to the rules. Do you understand how hard it is for somebody who speaks Chinese for the first few years of their life to learn English, of acceptable quality. I think outsourcers should choose people based on the overall impression, but most importantly they should ask people to translate 100 words of the text they are about to translate, before making the final d... See more I think this is all insane -- some peoples' writing has been dissected on the forum -- I am not sure if this is even allowed according to the rules. Do you understand how hard it is for somebody who speaks Chinese for the first few years of their life to learn English, of acceptable quality. I think outsourcers should choose people based on the overall impression, but most importantly they should ask people to translate 100 words of the text they are about to translate, before making the final decision. The problem is some outsourcers want only someone who has been speaking one language from their birth, since they think this will assure that the text will be acceptable, which might not always be true, and those outsourcers have no way of verifying that, or don't want to spend additional money on it, to find out whether the text is acceptable -- the way it has been written, in a rare language, especially. Lack of editors at outsourcing companies is the main reason for all of that.
I think if people had to pay for language verification, most bilingual, talented people, would most likely leave ProZ. There is no reliable way of verifying someone's native language, anyhow, other than using methods the police would use in serious crime investigations, maybe. My suggestion was not to remove the native language category in profiles -- it is perfect the way it is, although more than two native languages would be better, some people speak more than two on a native level. What I meant was that outsourcers should not be able to use native language as a restriction on quoting. This way if there are any people who lie about their native language for quoting purposes they will have no reason to be doing it.
[Edited at 2012-07-02 10:58 GMT]
[Edited at 2012-07-02 10:59 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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Michele Fauble
United States
Local time: 08:26
Member (2006)
Norwegian to English
+ ...
Samuel Murray wrote:
Thanks, Michele, but I think that non-native errors are mostly language-specific.
They often are, but need not be. There are quite a few non-native errors in English that are found in the speech/writing of non-native English speakers from a variety of native language backgrounds. A real example:
past tense of did + past tense of main verb, e.g. "did you went?"
A native English speaker does not need to know the native language of the speaker to know that this is a non-native error.
Samuel Murray wrote:
I'm pretty sure that not writing a space after a comma in e.g. "7 and 8,9" is not typical in any of your source languages, so it is safe to infer that leaving out the space is not due to some kind of influence of your source languages but simply because you were in a hurry, so for you it would not be a non-native error (although for someone else it may well have been one).
It would not be a non-native error in any case since spelling and punctuation are not part of what makes one a native speaker.
[Edited at 2012-07-02 11:23 GMT]
| | | | Alan Wang
China
Local time: 23:26
English to Chinese
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| near-nativeness? | Jul 2, 2012 |
Samuel Murray wrote:
I hope you don't mind, but I'd like to comment on your near-nativeness in English by analysing your introduction on your ProZ.com profile page.
Thank you for the nitpicking and also Michele's clarification. Appreciate it, and I mean it. I got the feeling that you are a grammarian or have taught English grammar. Just a guess.
Not surprisingly, I am a little bit surprised when you say you are non-native in English. If you are the standard of near-nativeness, I guess my idea of it just needs to be enlightened.
[Edited at 2012-07-02 11:04 GMT]
| | | | Robert Forstag
United States
Local time: 11:26
Spanish to English
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| Constructive ambiguity? | Jul 2, 2012 |
Lisa Simpson, MCIL wrote:
[My issue is with the lack of distinction between a Certified Pro and the rest and the fact that everyone on this site should actually be a "Certified Pro" (as a minimum) otherwise the name of the site is a complete misnomer.
Good point. Although I thought introduction of that program was a step in the right direction, it in effect constituted an implicit admission that there are many users/members of the site who are "not exactly pros" (especially given the emphatic assertion that the badge by no means conferred any kind of "elite" status).
In any case, I think it reasonable that verification of native claims of more than one language be required of those in this program. Otherwise, it would seem a bit of a mockery.
Lisa Simpson, MCIL wrote:
The problem is that it's very unclear what the ultimate goal of the [Certified Pro] programme is, nor do I see any clear distinction between Certified Pros and everyone else at the moment. I doubt outsourcers do either.
I'm in doubt myself, especially in light of the recent introduction of agencies in the program according to criteria that have been defined in only the vaguest of terms. (The most recent announcement of this innovation included a list of factors that "may" be considered. Of course, "may" also implicitly means "may not" so such a qualification renders the very idea of criteria meaningless.)
[Edited at 2012-07-02 13:39 GMT]
| | | | Samuel Murray
Netherlands
Local time: 17:26
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
| Spelling and punctuation | Jul 2, 2012 |
Michele Fauble wrote:
It would not be a non-native error in any case since spelling and punctuation are not part of what makes one a native speaker.
I think that that comment brings us back to the definition of "native speaker". In my view, unless there is reason to doubt the reading and writing abilities of the speaker, writing according to his language's norms would be a clear tag for nativeness.
After all, many languages include commas where there are pauses, and non-native speakers may pause in the wrong places. And many languages have commas in places where there are no pauses but where grammar conventions require them. Spacing with punctuation also often shows that a person is not a native speaker (for example in some languages there is a space before the questionmark, but not in English).
Spelling and punctuation would only not be a mark of nativeness if the person is a poor writer or had little education, but that does not apply to translators.
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| The source of Evil has to be eliminated to solve the problem | Jul 2, 2012 |
The reason why some people might be lying is because they want to quote on jobs they are convinced they could do, but the native restriction prevents them form quoting. If this obstacle is eliminated people will have no reason to lie. Why would people lie otherwise? To get jobs they cannot handle? I think this would be unreasonable.
| | | | | A right ol' conundrum and no mistake | Jul 2, 2012 |
Broadly agree.
Phil Hand wrote:
Things I've learned over the past week:
1) Verification, even of just second languages, would be a massive task, if applied to all members.
True, and I happen to think that the same rules should apply to "N" languages of all types, which makes it worse.
2) The current "challenge" system is not obviously functional - The current challenge system is repellent.
I'm not sure too many people knew we could challenge anyway, before this thread.
There again, I am notoriously myopic.
Agree about the repellent thing, but...
4) We can't be trusted to judge nativeness ourselves.
Although some kind of consensus/community would perhaps be best (i.e. not just one or two people deciding). I rate the chances of the resources being found to develop any form of ideal solution (yours, mine, or anyone else's) as being precisely nil.
I) Verification as a paid-for member service. This would take the pressure off the site staff.
How? It's still extra work they don't do now. Just because fewer people would be in the "catchment area", there's still shed loads of work involved in any procedure worthy of the name, surely?
An option I suggested right back at the beginning of the thread: do verification of second native languages by verifying a credential. You can have a second native language if you show you have a university degree earned in the country of your second language.
Yup, I talked about this too, in the context of being challenged, but with the proviso that it would be evidence, not proof. (By which I mean it would help in your case, but would not be necessary or sufficient in and of itself.)
| | | | Ty Kendall
United Kingdom
Local time: 16:26
Hebrew to English
| Industry demands native language | Jul 2, 2012 |
LilianBoland wrote:
The problem is some outsourcers want only someone who has been speaking one language from their birth, since they think this will assure that the text will be acceptable
The 'problem'?
This is a bit like me saying "the problem with that modelling agency is that they only want someone who is quite good looking, or has some quirky look about them, they think this will make a successful model..."
Who am I to go tell them they actually need a really ugly person, someone with a face only a mother could love?
Every industry has its requirements, usually for good reasons (i.e. good looking models sell products better, native speakers of the target language *more often than not* write the target language better).
I think if people had to pay for language verification, most bilingual, talented people, would most likely leave ProZ. There is no reliable way of verifying someone's native language, anyhow,
No they wouldn't and yes there is: error analysis.
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