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| And definite unverifiedness... (?!) | Jun 27, 2012 |
... just chucking this in again from yesterday - what happens when someone claims a "native" tongue, that claim is checked, and then shown to be false?
What about an "N" with a big red cross through it ?
| | | | Kirsten Bodart 
United Kingdom
Local time: 22:46
Dutch to English
+ ...
| That list with headings | Jun 27, 2012 |
Could be a good solution, but then we should verify first and then put it in practice. Our grey icons have been there now for 4 years, our identity has obviously been checked (I don't know how), but languages not. I mean, do we send Proz a copy of our passports or do we ask the embassy to certify our existence and birth language?
The question remains, though, how you would really verify.
| | | | XXXphxxx (X)
United Kingdom
Local time: 21:46
Portuguese to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Kirsten Bodart wrote:
Could be a good solution, but then we should verify first and then put it in practice. Our grey icons have been there now for 4 years, our identity has obviously been checked (I don't know how), but languages not. I mean, do we send Proz a copy of our passports or do we ask the embassy to certify our existence and birth language?
The question remains, though, how you would really verify.
Let's take one step at a time. Jared has already explained that the verification process is being decided. That is another discussion now. Feel free to start a new thread on that. In the meantime, I don't see any problem for you. You declare Flemish, which you have told us is your native language, and English, which I understand from your profile is currently there by virtue of your partner, is registered by him under a separate profile. Simple.
| | | | Kirsten Bodart
United Kingdom
Local time: 22:46
Dutch to English
+ ...
| You are overlooking a vast number of people here | Jun 27, 2012 |
writeaway wrote:
A native speaker is just that. Either one is a native speaker of a language or one isn't. It's not something that can be added on at random because one feels they are as good as or even better than people who are genuine native speakers.
No one is saying people can't claim native proficiency. The 'About Me' space on the profile page offers every opportunity for that.
Lots of us have been living in foreign languages for years and speak them fluently. Being able to write them (at a professional level) is another thing altogether.
And fwiw, English has LOTS of rules. Really it does........ Written English in particular. That's where the rules really matter. Many non-natives who cheerfully claim to be EN native speakers seem to be blissfully unaware of this fact. Which may explain why verb tenses, syntax, definite/indefinite articles, prepositions etc. give them away as soon as they start writing...
I agree that you can't wave the native tag around at random, but you are overlooking a vast number of immigrants who have spoken their second laguage since childhood and who frankly don't know what their native language actually is. They possibly know that second language better than the one they speak with their mother or father. Particularly if they were not really taught to read and write it to a great degree.
The use of prepositions is not a rule, nor is the use of articles. There must be studies that were made about the use of the preposition 'from' and what its wider meaning is (what is the link between 'prevent from' and 'come from', for example), but it is not a rule. There are some rules, I concede, of course there are, but not in the same vast numbers as German has them.
There must be studies asking why the Russian preposition 'do' goes with the genitive case and 'na' with the prepositional (if it is used in a static sense). The do + gen. is a rule, the fact that we use prevent with from is not, it's a vocabulary thing.
The fact that we leave out definite or indefinite articles or use plurals instead of singulars is not a rule, it is just a fact. There are some directions you can follow, but some of them are vague. I have heard both, 'Cars were invented in the 19th century,' and 'The car was invented in the 19th century.' From native speakers.
If people have enough talent, they can learn this.
As to Joseph Conrad:
His language may have been influenced by his Polish background. However, it cannot have been so bad that it was disturbing, otherwise he had not reached the point where he is being fought over between the Polish and the English. There are native writers who wrote in a worse style than he. If native writers admired him, I don't think his English can have been abysmal.
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Kirsten Bodart wrote:
our identity has obviously been checked (I don't know how)
When you pay for membership with a credit card, I believe that counts as the i/d check, assuming you pay with your own card, presumably. There may be other ways, but I'm fairly sure that is one of them.
[Edited at 2012-06-27 10:08 GMT]
| | | | Robert Forstag
United States
Local time: 16:46
Spanish to English
+ ...
| Unverified claims of more than one lang. should be clearly indicated on profiles | Jun 27, 2012 |
Paul Stevens wrote: Jared wrote: Hi Lisa, Lisa Simpson, MCIL wrote:
Thank you Jared, so pending any decisions on how to sort out the current confusion and mess, may I suggest that everyone chooses one native language (their choice, they can choose whatever they feel is correct for them) and any further ones remain "Pending verification"? The path has already been laid for the native speaker credential, and the grey icons in essence represent that verification has not been made. Those who wish to declare only one native language in the meantime are able to do so-- if two have been declared, the icons will be grey. Clicking on the icons shows further information. I see no reason to change this at the moment and I feel it would be more productive for me to focus on some of the improvements I've made mention of here instead. Jared Jared, I agree 100% with Lisa's proposal and would respectfully suggest that the coloured icons are not nearly as clear-cut as what Lisa is suggesting, quite simply because (IMO) a large percentage of members and outsourcers have no idea what the various colours for the icon actually mean and probably wouldn't bother clicking on them to find out more. Hence the impression is created that the person whose profile it is is assumed to be a native in more than one language without proper verification in the second and, if applicable, subsequent language(s). Surely you wouldn't want such ambiguity to continue to exist, would you? [Edited at 2012-06-27 08:23 GMT]
Completely agree with this. Because of the high incidence of fraud with respect to the matter in question, it is important to not leave room for ambiguity on this critical issue, and to place the burden of proof of verification on those making such claims.
Individuals claiming more than one native language would then have three choices:
1.
Remove the claims of more than one language as native.
2.
Retain the additional claims with unverified status (and deal with this with their clients/potential clients as they wish).
3.
Seek verification through whichever system is eventually put in place by the site.
[Edited at 2012-06-28 11:16 GMT]
| | | | Robert Forstag
United States
Local time: 16:46
Spanish to English
+ ...
| Remove false claim and block future changes to native status on profiles | Jun 27, 2012 |
Charlie Bavington wrote: ... just chucking this in again from yesterday - what happens when someone claims a "native" tongue, that claim is checked, and then shown to be false? What about an "N" with a big red cross through it ?
This would seem to be the proper way to deal with established false claims of nativeness on profiles. Charlie's suggestion, while it has its merits, strikes me as overly punitive....
***
And the other side of the coin:
In my view, challenges to native status that are not upheld by staff ought not to constitute verification. Why not? Because there is a difference between not meeting the criteria for being blatantly non-native, on the one hand, and being considered a verifiable native speaker, on the other.
[Edited at 2012-06-27 10:52 GMT]
| | | | Sheila Wilson
Spain
Local time: 21:46
Member (2007)
English
+ ...
| There are rules - but natives don't need them | Jun 27, 2012 |
Kirsten Bodart wrote:
The use of prepositions is not a rule, nor is the use of articles.
...
The fact that we leave out definite or indefinite articles or use plurals instead of singulars is not a rule, it is just a fact.
Taking the definite articles side of that statement, there most certainly are rules that cover use or non-use. Unfortunately for non-native learners, it seems to be almost impossible to get it right all of the time, whatever their overall level. Of course, when you're talking at normal speed it is very, very easy to put in a "the" where it shouldn't be, or to leave it out. The chances that your listener will pick up on it are slim. It sounds fine. It's only when it goes down on paper that it becomes a glaring error that needs to be corrected.
Native normally-educated learners are really lucky. Not only do they ALWAYS get it right, they often don't have a clue what the rules are! I myself had never even thought about it until my teacher training at the age of 40.
I think we're getting off-topic again here but this grammar point does serve to demonstrate the point that writeaway was making (correct me if I'm wrong) regarding a "real" native speaker, who may or may not know that these rules exist, whilst applying every one of them every time, and a proficient speaker / near-native speaker (whatever) who has either learnt every rule and applies most of them most of the time, or has learnt by living in the country and gets it right by "feel" most of the time.
Sheila
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Kirsten Bodart
United Kingdom
Local time: 22:46
Dutch to English
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| Ah, I would not mind | Jun 27, 2012 |
Lisa Simpson, MCIL wrote:
Let's take one step at a time. Jared has already explained that the verification process is being decided. That is another discussion now. Feel free to start a new thread on that. In the meantime, I don't see any problem for you. You declare Flemish, which you have told us is your native language, and English, which I understand from your profile is currently there by virtue of your partner, is registered by him under a separate profile. Simple.
If it were not for the world generally disagreeing about whether Flemish is a language. To the Flemish, it is not, to the Dutch it is a weird form of their language (and its speakers actually know Dutch better, but that left to one side) and to the Penguin Dictionary it is a language. There are very few job postings for Flemish. I haven't seen one for several months now (6 months +), so I would forego all those postings for native Dutch as well as all the directory searches. Bad idea.
@Charlie:
Thanks for clarifying that. We did indeed pay with a credit card.
[Edited at 2012-06-27 10:48 GMT]
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Robert Forstag wrote: Charlie Bavington wrote: ... just chucking this in again from yesterday - what happens when someone claims a "native" tongue, that claim is checked, and then shown to be false? What about an "N" with a big red cross through it ? This would seem to be the proper way to deal with established false claims of nativeness on profiles. Charlie's suggestion, while it has its merits, strikes me as overly punitive....
It wasn't entirely serious - I suspect the majority would agree with you.
Personally, I'm thinking that if people don't want to be tagged as the suppliers of misleading or untrue information, how about they stick to telling the truth, but I'm a simple soul like that.
Nonetheless, some kind of technical solution would I feel be needed - I wasn't entirely reassured by Jared's "we'll keep an eye on them in future" from yesterday in terms of preventing people just claiming the same (second) native language again a few weeks later, if a claim is found to be false.
(Although clearly there are other, wider solutions that avoid this issue - only having one, or no, "N" languages falls into this category - and such ideas are worth considering.)
| | | | XXXphxxx (X)
United Kingdom
Local time: 21:46
Portuguese to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Kirsten Bodart wrote:
If it were not for the world generally disagreeing about whether Flemish is a language. To the Flemish, it is not, to the Dutch it is a weird form of their language (and its speakers actually know Dutch better, but that left to one side) and to the Penguin Dictionary it is a language. There are very few job postings for Flemish. I haven't seen one for several months now (6 months +), so I would forego all those postings for native Dutch as well as all the directory searches. Bad idea.
You may therefore be one of those exceptions and you could take this up with site staff separately. Surely one verified language is still better than two unverified ones? The fact that you don't even mention your native language shows that the current system is severely flawed. In any event, a directory search would seem to indicate that there are several pages of Flemish native speakers so you can probably stop worrying about it not being a language.
| | | | Diana Coada (X)
United Kingdom
Local time: 21:46
Portuguese to English
+ ...
Michele Fauble wrote:
To claim a language as a native language is to make a claim about the age at which it was acquired and the circumstances under which it was acquired. A native language is acquired at a young age and as a member of a community of native speakers.
By your definition, Polish children who came to the UK at the age of 5-10 and then went back to Poland at the age of 10-15 would be native speakers of English. NO WAY.
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XXXphxxx (X)
United Kingdom
Local time: 21:46
Portuguese to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | Hopefully the last time this point needs to be addressed | Jun 27, 2012 |
@ Kirsten
Let’s say we go along with your argument that English is as devoid of rules as you claim, then would the ensuing logic not be that it is therefore more difficult to master the language to a convincing native standard? If there are no rules that one can simply swot up on then one’s knowledge has to be gleaned entirely from regular and long-standing usage in a native environment from earliest childhood.
Anyway, I just wanted to add my bit to that discussion which, ... See more @ Kirsten
Let’s say we go along with your argument that English is as devoid of rules as you claim, then would the ensuing logic not be that it is therefore more difficult to master the language to a convincing native standard? If there are no rules that one can simply swot up on then one’s knowledge has to be gleaned entirely from regular and long-standing usage in a native environment from earliest childhood.
Anyway, I just wanted to add my bit to that discussion which, in any event, is entirely off-topic and irrelevant to any discussions on displaying a native language tag.
[Edited at 2012-06-27 12:05 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Phil Hand
China
Local time: 04:46
Chinese to English
| 5-15 is a reasonable window for acquisition | Jun 27, 2012 |
A child who arrived in the UK at age 5 and acquired the language for 10 years could be a native by the age of 15. 5-10? Much less likely.
Two things:
1) The language would have to be kept up for it to be relevant for translation purposes. If the child left at 15 and didn't use English for the next 10 years, I would think it very possible that they would lose the language. Dunno what the research has found on that.
2) This sounds to me like one of the grey areas that no-one on P... See more A child who arrived in the UK at age 5 and acquired the language for 10 years could be a native by the age of 15. 5-10? Much less likely.
Two things:
1) The language would have to be kept up for it to be relevant for translation purposes. If the child left at 15 and didn't use English for the next 10 years, I would think it very possible that they would lose the language. Dunno what the research has found on that.
2) This sounds to me like one of the grey areas that no-one on Proz has any business trying to police. I would certainly be happy to just accept all the borderline cases rather than argue about them. The value for us is stopping the obvious misrepresentation that makes a mockery of the Proz "native" category. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Diana Coada (X)
United Kingdom
Local time: 21:46
Portuguese to English
+ ...
I haven't spoken Romanian on a daily basis since I left Moldova as a teenager. I also spoke Russian fluently till the age of 10-12. Would I be able to claim it as my native language? By some people's definition - I would be. I haven't spoken a word of Russian since I was 14-15 more or less. My university studies were done in English and Portuguese. I have a first degree. I have been speaking PT since I was a teenager. I have been speaking English since I was 7. I've been in the UK for 5 years an... See more I haven't spoken Romanian on a daily basis since I left Moldova as a teenager. I also spoke Russian fluently till the age of 10-12. Would I be able to claim it as my native language? By some people's definition - I would be. I haven't spoken a word of Russian since I was 14-15 more or less. My university studies were done in English and Portuguese. I have a first degree. I have been speaking PT since I was a teenager. I have been speaking English since I was 7. I've been in the UK for 5 years and I have spoken English on a daily basis since I was 17. If I stay here for another 10 years, who's to say I can't add EN as my native as well? Why should YOU or PROZ decide what my native language is and what language I feel most comfortable with?
[Edited at 2012-06-27 13:06 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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