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| Plain English | Sep 19, 2012 |
If a client asks for a native speaker translator, it is because he hopes that the language usage of the translator will be the same or similar to the average or most commonly occuring usage of the text's intended readership, but it is really often a case of hit and miss. It is far better for a client if his text is translated in a way that seems somewhat normal to larger numbers of his readership than a way that seems highly normal to only a smaller number of his readers.
Sounds like what's wanted is 'plain English' (or plain Dutch or whatever) which is easy for non-natives to understand. But can non-natives write plain English? I suspect most can't.
Regards,
Olly
| | | | Balasubramaniam L. 
India
Local time: 09:22
Member (2006)
English to Hindi
+ ...
SITE LOCALIZER | It means this: | Sep 19, 2012 |
Giles Watson wrote: Balasubramaniam L. wrote:
It will be useful to keep in mind that not all natives of a language develop native-level proficiency in their language.
Interesting. Does this mean that, for example, a pear is not a pear if it fails to achieve some arbitrary level of pear-like deliciousness?
(I will substitute pear with "date" as I don't know the geographical requirements of pear.)
If the date palm (which grows best in desert environment) is grown in colder climates, it may grow, but it will be stunted, may not even bear fruits.
Similarly, if a native is taken out of his native area he may not turn up that much of a native.
Coming back to the pear, if the seed of the pear is defective, it may not grow up to be a healthy pear tree (or bush).
Similarly, if the native is lacking in language learning attributes, intelligence, education and a host of other factors, he will not acquire high-levels of proficiency in the native language.
| | | | Ty Kendall
United Kingdom
Local time: 04:52
Hebrew to English
| These extended analogies are getting silly now, and borderline offensive | Sep 19, 2012 |
Balasubramaniam L. wrote:
(I will substitute pear with "date" as I don't know the geographical requirements of pear.)
If the date palm (which grows best in desert environment) is grown in colder climates, it may grow, but it will be stunted, may not even bear fruits.
Similarly, if a native is taken out of his native area he may not turn up that much of a native.
Coming back to the pear, if the seed of the pear is defective, it may not grow up to be a healthy pear tree (or bush).
Similarly, if the native is lacking in language learning attributes, intelligence, education and a host of other factors, he will not acquire high-levels of proficiency in the native language.
I think we really have veered way off course when we are calling native speakers "pears" and talking about what happens if their "seed is defective" (equating it with a lack of intelligence, linguistic defects etc).
Giles' original analogy was good enough, trying to extend it to make some kind of point (although it escapes me) has not achieved the desired result and is actually encroaching on very shaky ground best avoided in my opinion.
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Ty Kendall wrote:
I think we really have veered way off course when we are calling native speakers "pears"
Indeed, this discussion has gone pear-shaped.
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| | | This is important! | Sep 19, 2012 |
Balasubramaniam L. wrote:
Similarly, if a native is taken out of his native area he may not turn up that much of a native.
I'll skip the details, but one Brazilian once went to Bariloche, Argentina, and fell in love with the blue spruce. He secured one healthy seedling, got all the governmental certificates and licenses required, and had it planted in the Serra Gaúcha, the mountains in Brazil's southernmost state. In about a week, it had become completely green , like all the native ones there. (Pictures taken from anywhere on the web to illustrate, not of that particular tree.
Now and then I need to hire local voice talent in foreign languages. I recall one case of EN and another of ES. In both I went browsing the local voice databases, looking for native speakers. I found just too many who - from the samples they provided - were obviously native speakers, however they had acquired a Brazilian accent over time, which was unacceptable for the intended purposes.
I had a great friend and my best client for 20+ years, she passed away a couple of years ago. Originally American, she married a Brazilian, moved here in her twenties after having secured a degree in Journalism, and lived in Brazil for the remaining two-thirds of her life. Her business kept her going to the USA 2-4 times every year, and she spoke Portuguese quite well, though with an extremely heavy EN-US accent.
Once, in a presentation she gave - incidentally in her birthplace, Detroit, MI - she used a Brazilian expression in English, asking "Now, who will peel the pineapple?", quite naturally, and making a pause for spectators to respond. The large audience as a whole didn't get it, nobody knew what they were expected to answer, so she was prompted to explain it.
For those here who don't know it, it's the best way to describe tackling a difficult, unpleasant, sticky, and often risky situation, worse than just "cracking a tough nut", one possible EN 'translation'. To peel a pineapple, you must use a sharp and relatively large knife, often applying some considerable effort, while performing precision movements (otherwise you might waste a significant part of a delicious fruit). The leaves have sawtooth edges, and the crust is somewhat prickly to hold from the outside. The inside oozes sticky juice that covers your hands, asnd makes them slippery. Then you'll use that rather large knife's point to cut out any prickly "eyes" left, if you did a good peeling job.
Bottom line is that the fruit is delicious, yet the peeling job is tough. And no civilized human will eat a pineapple with its crust. (I think not even animals will eat the leaves.)
She told me this entire story to make sure that if "to peel the pineapple" ever gets added to an EN dictionary, she should get her due credit.
The point here is that a true native EN speaker (which she definitely was!) constrained to her original birthplace would never think of a pineapple upon having to describe such a situation. Meanwhile a non-native PT speaker in Brazil (her case too) would immediately fetch this concept that most Brazilians can relate to.
Likewise, the EN expression birds of a feather would require some lengthy explanation to be translated into Portuguese. The equivalent to "Birds of a feather flock together" in PT is said literally in the form of "Tell me who you walk with, and I'll tell you who you are", yet there is some difference in context comparable to the pineapple vs. tough nut one.
So this is what can be achieved from demanding absolutely a native speaker, and, for it to be effective, it should be further required that the individual still lives (apart from occasional travel) in their country of origin.
Meanwhile a truly competent translator, thoroughly skilled in both languages, will find an elegant and effective way to play down such local language quirks, regardless of what's their L1, and regardless of where they live.
After WWII my father moved to Brazil and one of his brothers moved to Australia. My father learned Portuguese, my uncle learned English. They corresponded (this was decades before the Internet) in their native Polish. Some 30 years after they split, when I got married, my uncle flew here. To their astonishment - as my father said they had been delivered in the same room, three years apart and some 60 years before, and went to the same schools - I often had to intervene in their conversation (in Polish) to interpret EN-PT!
So my final answer to the OP is that Proz has no business in verifying native language claims. Nevertheless prospective outsourcers should verify ALL translators' self-claims, as part of their due diligence process. What if... yes, the translator is indeed a native speaker as stated, however their 3 decades' experience is only... 3 months?
| | | | | May this may that | Sep 19, 2012 |
"Similarly, if a native is taken out of his native area he may not turn up that much of a native. "
Yes of course he may, but then he hopefully hasn't chosen translation as a career. All these examples of exceptions to the rule are fine, but they don't change the rule. Moreover, translators will hopefully be exceptions to the rule themselves, the rule in this case being that most people are terrible writers of any language. That's why many writers - be they novelists, journalists, ... See more "Similarly, if a native is taken out of his native area he may not turn up that much of a native. "
Yes of course he may, but then he hopefully hasn't chosen translation as a career. All these examples of exceptions to the rule are fine, but they don't change the rule. Moreover, translators will hopefully be exceptions to the rule themselves, the rule in this case being that most people are terrible writers of any language. That's why many writers - be they novelists, journalists, translators or whatever - write. They're good at it. Obviously you need to write like a native speaker to be a good writer and obviously native speakers are by far the most likely to write like native speakers. All the rest are exceptions. What is the issue here anyway???
[Edited at 2012-09-19 12:02 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Ty Kendall
United Kingdom
Local time: 04:52
Hebrew to English
| Olly - are you telepathic or something? | Sep 19, 2012 |
Olly Pekelharing wrote:
"Similarly, if a native is taken out of his native area he may not turn up that much of a native. "
Yes of course he may, but then he hopefully hasn't chosen translation as a career. All these examples of exceptions to the rule are fine, but they don't change the rule. Moreover, translators will hopefully be exceptions to the rule themselves, the rule in this case being that most people are terrible writers of any language. That's why many writers - be they novelists, journalists, translators or whatever - write. They're good at it. Obviously you need to write like a native speaker to be a good writer and obviously native speakers are by far the most likely to write like native speakers. All the rest are exceptions. What is the issue here anyway???
[Edited at 2012-09-19 12:02 GMT]
Took the words right out of my mouth...or brain
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| Which seed, is defective, Ty. Are you talking about genetics? | Sep 19, 2012 |
Ty Kendall wrote: Balasubramaniam L. wrote:
(I will substitute pear with "date" as I don't know the geographical requirements of pear.)
If the date palm (which grows best in desert environment) is grown in colder climates, it may grow, but it will be stunted, may not even bear fruits.
Similarly, if a native is taken out of his native area he may not turn up that much of a native.
Coming back to the pear, if the seed of the pear is defective, it may not grow up to be a healthy pear tree (or bush).
Similarly, if the native is lacking in language learning attributes, intelligence, education and a host of other factors, he will not acquire high-levels of proficiency in the native language. I think we really have veered way off course when we are calling native speakers "pears" and talking about what happens if their "seed is defective" (equating it with a lack of intelligence, linguistic defects etc). Giles' original analogy was good enough, trying to extend it to make some kind of point (although it escapes me) has not achieved the desired result and is actually encroaching on very shaky ground best avoided in my opinion.
There ani't no seeds in language -- only words, and grammatical structures, acquired at an early age, or a little bit later. Some more standard, others more causal or typical of idiolects.
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... circles, tangents, ignorance and fruit... just in the last few pages.
Since everyone has, in some way, contributed to it, I thought it only polite to draw your attention to a blog post wot I dun. I know there have been attempts to take this discussion off-site to find a solution, because I've been invited to join, and refused on the grounds I believe this particular issue should be discussed openly here and resolv... See more ... circles, tangents, ignorance and fruit... just in the last few pages.
Since everyone has, in some way, contributed to it, I thought it only polite to draw your attention to a blog post wot I dun. I know there have been attempts to take this discussion off-site to find a solution, because I've been invited to join, and refused on the grounds I believe this particular issue should be discussed openly here and resolved here if resolution is possible. So this is not that. Just my own thoughts surrounding this issue.
http://cbavington.com/blog/2012/09/19/in-the-summertime/
I should probably get on with other stuff now; I hate to admit defeat or seem to be lacking in perseverance (notwithstanding my initial cynicism anyway) but if I were Henry, I wouldn't respond either after the nonsense posted since the weekend, which alone probably vindicates his decision to let this burn itself out. (I assume that is his decision, anyhow!)
I suspect I may not have responded to all the "@Charlie" or counter arguments quoting my words of wisdom on here. If that is the case, a) I apologise and b) if you really want a response, nudge me and I'll respond. Unless you want to discuss Scandinavian fruit. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Ty Kendall
United Kingdom
Local time: 04:52
Hebrew to English
| The trouble with examples | Sep 19, 2012 |
José Henrique Lamensdorf wrote:
I had a great friend and my best client for 20+ years, she passed away a couple of years ago. Originally American, she married a Brazilian, moved here in her twenties after having secured a degree in Journalism, and lived in Brazil for the remaining two-thirds of her life. Her business kept her going to the USA 2-4 times every year, and she spoke Portuguese quite well, though with an extremely heavy EN-US accent.
But she wasn't a translator or an interpreter, was she? So she was a native speaker who had lived for a long time outside of her native language country and who clearly had some L1 attrition/L2 interference. Any decent translator would ensure than no non-nativisms slip into their output (and most translators are linguistically aware enough to know they employ non-nativisms).
I don't see anything new here. Nothing that wasn't discussed very early on in the thread.
What you're talking about is the blind pursuit of native translators (coz you might get a dud one who has lived abroad for ages and who has forgotten their language). I think this is actually quite rare in reality - many of the examples given involve non-linguists, for example.
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Ty Kendall wrote: José Henrique Lamensdorf wrote:
I had a great friend and my best client for 20+ years, she passed away a couple of years ago. Originally American, she married a Brazilian, moved here in her twenties after having secured a degree in Journalism, and lived in Brazil for the remaining two-thirds of her life. Her business kept her going to the USA 2-4 times every year, and she spoke Portuguese quite well, though with an extremely heavy EN-US accent. But she wasn't a translator or an interpreter, was she? So she was a native speaker who had lived for a long time outside of her native language country and who clearly had some L1 attrition/L2 interference. Any decent translator would ensure than no non-nativisms slip into their output (and most translators are linguistically aware enough to know they employ non-nativisms). I don't see anything new here. Nothing that wasn't discussed very early on in the thread. What you're talking about is the blind pursuit of native translators (coz you might get a dud one who has lived abroad for ages and who has forgotten their language). I think this is actually quite rare in reality - many of the examples given involve non-linguists, for example.
... her work (too complex to describe, I won't go into details here) involved A LOT of complex translation and writing (and speaking) all day in both languages, though she was not a freelance translator for hire.
I happen to know Brazilians living in US, UK, Canada, Australia for decades who are translators, duly accredited by acknowledged organizations (ATA, NAATI, etc. and not CTP-like outfits) to translate into their conceptually non-native English. Likewise I know 'foreigners' who moved to Brazil decades ago, learned the language, and are now very competent translators into their conceptually non-native Portuguese.
My point is that the "native speaker" qualification alone, as it is prominently displayed on Proz profiles, no matter how punctilliously and thoroughly ascertained, leads to no universally reliable conclusion whatsoever.
| | | | | Only Sweden Swedish gooseberries has | Sep 19, 2012 |
Charlie Bavington wrote:
Unless you want to discuss Scandinavian fruit.
"Blott Sverige svenska krusbär har" (Carl Jonas Love Almqvist 1838)
OK - I admit it's slightly OT.
| | | | XXXphxxx (X)
United Kingdom
Local time: 04:52
Portuguese to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | Let's get that from the horse's mouth | Sep 19, 2012 |
Charlie Bavington wrote:
I should probably get on with other stuff now; I hate to admit defeat or seem to be lacking in perseverance (notwithstanding my initial cynicism anyway) but if I were Henry, I wouldn't respond either after the nonsense posted since the weekend, which alone probably vindicates his decision to let this burn itself out. (I assume that is his decision, anyhow!)
No time like the present. I'll let you know if I get a reply although I have requested that he post to the thread.
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