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Should “native language” claims be verified?
Thread poster: XXXphxxx (X)
Bernhard Sulzer
Bernhard Sulzer  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 00:52
English to German
+ ...
a bizarre incident Jul 30, 2012

Charlie Bavington wrote:
...

I honestly don't care if you sound like Schteve McLaren.
Or indeed if you lost your tongue in a bizarre lawnmower accident.

It's writing what counts. It's writing that triggered the topic. Sure, other attributes or factors might indicate that written output is likely to be of the required standard, but doesn't guarsntee it. Why not just test the thing we're actually interested in?




would be seen as an exception. If you still have your tongue, you can have a chat. It helps as a verification tool. I'm pretty sure of it.

Bernhard

[Edited at 2012-07-30 19:53 GMT]


 
Nicole Schnell
Nicole Schnell  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 21:52
English to German
+ ...
In memoriam
@Lilian Jul 30, 2012

You need to travel a little bit. Please do not forget that NYC and California, for that matter, are considered the least American places on this continent. If you never got out of your Brooklyn and if you are so used to your slang, you probably should be a bit cautious regarding generalizations such as:

LilianBoland wrote:
I don't think 90% of Americans could tell if somebody is a
British English native speaker or if the person is from
another country and just has a very good command of the
language.




LilianBoland wrote:
To Nicole: You must live in a very conservative part of the United States, or a conservative neighborhood, at least. Most of young people in New York speak slang, in everyday life. The rap took it over. I cannot even tell who is speaking anymore, if I don't look at the person. Perfect rap.


That's very sad. Rap was fashionable in the early 80s, right? They still try to speak in rhymes in NYC? My NYC clients don't.
Conservative part of the US? No, as a matter of fact I live in the most liberal city in the US.

You really need to get out more often.


 
Natalie
Natalie  Identity Verified
Poland
Local time: 05:52
Member (2002)
English to Russian
+ ...

MODERATOR
SITE LOCALIZER
Er... Jul 30, 2012

LilianBoland wrote:
I am one of the best legal and literary translators from Polish (only legal from Polish) and Russian


Sorry, but whose exactly opinion is it?


 
LilianNekipelov
LilianNekipelov  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 00:52
Russian to English
+ ...
Hi, Nicole Jul 30, 2012

I haven't been to your city -- this is true because I have never been to any other US time zone, so this is for sure. I know the whole East Coast quite well. There isn't a state on the East Coast I have not been to. This is the situation mostly in New York, whatever I described. I am sure your clients speak standard English -- it is spoken everywhere in offices in New York. I was just talking about young people, that most of them really speak the rap kind of language in everyday life. There is n... See more
I haven't been to your city -- this is true because I have never been to any other US time zone, so this is for sure. I know the whole East Coast quite well. There isn't a state on the East Coast I have not been to. This is the situation mostly in New York, whatever I described. I am sure your clients speak standard English -- it is spoken everywhere in offices in New York. I was just talking about young people, that most of them really speak the rap kind of language in everyday life. There is nothing wrong with it. They must speak more standard English in school, although I am not sure about that -- it must be required, right? When I went to college about twenty years ago, even the Hip Hoppers spoke standard English, but retaining something of their own. The language in Boston is slightly more conservative -- I used to work there for a while about fifteen years ago but I haven't been there for at least ten years. I don't know if the situations has changed. Many people in New York take Americans from certain parts of the country for Brits. I am not talking about very educated, linguistically knowledgeable people, but about average people in the street, young people especially, used to their backyard idiolects.Collapse


 
LilianNekipelov
LilianNekipelov  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 00:52
Russian to English
+ ...
Hi, Natalie Jul 30, 2012

Most of my clients.

 
Luis Arri Cibils
Luis Arri Cibils  Identity Verified
Local time: 23:52
English to Spanish
+ ...
On tests, native or dominant languages and fraudulent misrepresentations Jul 30, 2012

Being “native language” allegedly the result of an “early brain wiring”, and the consequence of said wiring being an instinctive recognition of how something is said in that language, subjecting the individual to a “rapid fire” situation, such as an oral communication, where instinct is paramount, probably is the best way to determine “nativeness.”

Granted, those of us who have lived for an extended period of time in a country where our native language is not spoken
... See more
Being “native language” allegedly the result of an “early brain wiring”, and the consequence of said wiring being an instinctive recognition of how something is said in that language, subjecting the individual to a “rapid fire” situation, such as an oral communication, where instinct is paramount, probably is the best way to determine “nativeness.”

Granted, those of us who have lived for an extended period of time in a country where our native language is not spoken might have acquired a “funny” accent, or words and sentences might come instinctively to our mind in the local language. However, knowledgeable evaluators would be able to ignore these interferences to reach their determination regarding our true native language. In spite of my nearly 40 years living in the US, I am sure that a native Spanish speaker would have no problems in finding me a native Spanish speaker.

However, that is not really the issue, as somebody has already pointed out on this thread: We are translators; it is the quality of our written production the significant factor, the factor to be examined, if at all. And our writings give us time to check what we say, to overcome instinctiveness. Should we verify instinct or end result? Are just ERRORS and not ERRATAS what must be measured? Or is the grand total of ERRORS plus ERRATAS the significant factor to distinguish between professional translators and charlatans? In other words, do we want to check “nativeness” or “proficiency,” “native” language or “the dominant” language?

This last distinction is not obvious. If you visit the ATA website, in particular the Advanced Search (for translators) page, you will see the following: Native language, a drop down menu to select it, and then, between parentheses, an explanation: “This is the dominant target language.” Say what?!

Yet, all that lack of definition does not justify ignoring the clients´ legitimate requests to state one’s native language, it does not allow the translator to assert, straight face, “if you would not have asked, I would not have had to lie”.

Native language is a significant parameter, which has exceptions. To lie about it is an egregious misrepresentation, one that in other more regulated professions would be considered false advertisement, subject to severe sanctions.

For example, in Texas, lawyers cannot assert in their ads that they are specialists, say, in Family Law, even though they have been practicing Family Law since they finished Law School, unless they are certified as Family Law specialists by the Texas Board of Legal Specializations.

Furthermore, we are seeing “pornographic” claims of “nativeness”, contradicted by the claimant’s own written production. We should say: I might not really know how to define pornography, but I definitely recognize it when I see it, and sanction the pornographers accordingly, maybe not allowing them to declare any native language and, thus, being excluded from any search that specifies a desired native language. I frankly believe that no test would be necessary, as these fraudsters would change their profiles as soon as they are aware of the sanctions.

Greetings/saludos from a translator who has no turf to protect. A translator must be really desperate to claim “nativeness” in Spanish, when he or she lacks it,
Luis


[Edited at 2012-07-30 22:18 GMT]
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LilianNekipelov
LilianNekipelov  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 00:52
Russian to English
+ ...
You cannot measure, nor would you even be allowed to measure Jul 30, 2012

anybody's nativeness because it is almost equivalent to ethnicity or the culture the person identifies with. You could establish somebody's L1, especially for scientific research purposes, but in the case of translation you can only go by the quality of translation -- this is for the client to decide if the quality of the translation is something that is acceptable by their standards. This is why I think clients should simply require short tests-- the clients not the site. Even native speakers o... See more
anybody's nativeness because it is almost equivalent to ethnicity or the culture the person identifies with. You could establish somebody's L1, especially for scientific research purposes, but in the case of translation you can only go by the quality of translation -- this is for the client to decide if the quality of the translation is something that is acceptable by their standards. This is why I think clients should simply require short tests-- the clients not the site. Even native speakers of a particular language could produce terrible translations. A sample test is a great thing -- not too long, no more than a page, 100-200 words.Collapse


 
Bernhard Sulzer
Bernhard Sulzer  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 00:52
English to German
+ ...
NL verification was identified as necessary, we need constructive contributions, please! Jul 30, 2012

LilianBoland wrote:
...

Any nativeness verifications are not allowed according to US law, and this is an American site. This would be against the US Constitution to check nativeness of a US citizen. If you want to call your language L1 -- this is a totally different story. You need a license as an educational institution to conduct any tests, and any nativeness test might be considered, or rather will be considered, a violation of human rights.
....




[Edited at 2012-07-30 19:09 GMT]

[Edited at 2012-07-30 19:43 GMT]


Lilian,

Don't be mad but I had to chuckle. We really wasted our time here over 80 pages when you now tell us that native language verification (is that what you mean by "nativeness verification") is not allowed according to US law. It's also against the US constitution - because it infringes on our rights to say and do whatever we want?
Well, as long as Proz.com agrees with you, I guess there's nothing we can do about it.
But I have a feeling they really don't.

I am "verified" in German, for now, granted without having taken a test here on this site.
Please understand that "native language" is a criterion on this site, and the majority of writers here as well as Proz.com staff have acknowledged the need to improve "verification" procedures because there are well founded concerns regarding dishonest declarations of native languages, especially with respect to English.

One of the suggestions (by Proz.com) to verify your native language is by meeting with other competent native speakers at a Powwow. Nothing wrong with that. To verify something you need facts, to know facts you need to check the facts. It's up to Proz.com to adopt procedures for that. Written and/or oral verification procedures. There is nothing in the constitution that will prevent them from doing that. If you're verified as a native speaker here on Proz.com that doesn't mean the governments of this world have to accept it. It's all about us here, it's about if WE accept it or not. I don't accept it if anybody here can just simply claim any native language they want. I am trying to help make sure that doesn't happen. All that happens here at Proz.com does have an impact on the translation market and possibly on my own business and lifelihood. That's why I am invested. But surely only to a certain breaking point.

Proz.com can ask to verify information about its members such as name and address and other things if that's required for their business, there is nothing in the laws that would prevent them from doing that. They don't force you to use Proz.com. They can ban you from the site if you violate their rules. By using Proz.com you agree to abide by their rules. Proz.com is not a state-run institution, it's a business. Again, nobody forces you to use it.

But if you want to make constructive contributions to this thread, then try to follow the many good suggestions and ideas brought forward here and give it some serious thought before posting.

B

[Edited at 2012-07-30 23:38 GMT]


 
Kay Denney
Kay Denney  Identity Verified
France
Local time: 05:52
French to English
well... Jul 30, 2012

Just a couple of weeks in an Internet free world and I had loads of pages to catch up on!
I would just like to add something about this quote

Bin Tiede wrote:

Phil Hand wrote:
The problem in my pair is more on the supply side than on the demand side. It'll get better, it just needs lots and lots of time and effort.

Hi Phil,

Germans and Chinese communicate with each other mostly in English. It is not necessary, neither for the Germans nor for the Chinese, that the English should have the native fluency. If you get the terms correct and your writing is understandable, they would consider it a good translation.

The target audience (most of them) ist not even able to tell the difference, why do you bother so much?

Bin


In this particular case, maybe it doesn't matter, in which case the German or the Chinese guy simply does not tick the "native" box when filling out his request to post a job.

Although as others have pointed out (unlike many, I have read the whole thread), there are cases when it might matter. And if there is a comprehension problem caused by a mistake in English, are the Germans and Chinese going to agree that what was written means what they want it to mean rather than what a native English speaker would understand? Then supposing they had to send the document on to a Swede and a Brazilian?

When in doubt, you have to fall back on real native English as she is spoke to establish the correct meaning.

(BTW not sure if I thanked Writeaway for explaining why I get het up about my language getting mangled by non natives who think their English is perfect, I was truly appreciative)

@ Samuel your English is great, I was surprised to see in another thread you misspelled boycott

I have a suggestion for a test anyway:
http://www.thepoke.co.uk/2011/12/23/english-pronunciation/

(there are about three words I'm not altogether sure of in there)


 
Nicole Schnell
Nicole Schnell  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 21:52
English to German
+ ...
In memoriam
Will there be a budget for the evaluation? Jul 30, 2012

I will be happy to pay up to 5 dollars or so in addition to my annual membership fees. The evaluation should be conducted by a person who is NOT a ProZ.com member.
The benefits of being advertised in an environment that can proudly represent fully evaluated translators only is priceless, and ProZ.com will be able to gain a unique lead in the market - which will benefit all of us because we don't have to compete with black sheep any longer and we can crank up our rates.

For th
... See more
I will be happy to pay up to 5 dollars or so in addition to my annual membership fees. The evaluation should be conducted by a person who is NOT a ProZ.com member.
The benefits of being advertised in an environment that can proudly represent fully evaluated translators only is priceless, and ProZ.com will be able to gain a unique lead in the market - which will benefit all of us because we don't have to compete with black sheep any longer and we can crank up our rates.

For the verification of US English I will be happy to provide the address of a Professor of English at a Midwest university.
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LilianNekipelov
LilianNekipelov  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 00:52
Russian to English
+ ...
No, I don't think you can do it according to US law Jul 30, 2012

Even universities are not allowed to conduct any kind of studies like that -- except purely linguistic studies related to language acquisition and inventing new teaching methods. You can only test the competence of a person -- not the nativeness of anything -- only something that can be scientifically e evaluated. You could check someone's grammar, vocabulary writing style, but you cannot mingle with their ethnic origin or nativeness. Would a person from England accept somebody's English from In... See more
Even universities are not allowed to conduct any kind of studies like that -- except purely linguistic studies related to language acquisition and inventing new teaching methods. You can only test the competence of a person -- not the nativeness of anything -- only something that can be scientifically e evaluated. You could check someone's grammar, vocabulary writing style, but you cannot mingle with their ethnic origin or nativeness. Would a person from England accept somebody's English from India as native? There are a lot of problems with verifications of that kind.
What about lawyers, or scientists in the US, let's say, who were born somewhere else. They produce pleadings and write dissertations in English. If this kind of verification of nativeness was allowed in the US, many people might not be allowed to practice law or publish in English. This is not just a problem related to translators.
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Natalie
Natalie  Identity Verified
Poland
Local time: 05:52
Member (2002)
English to Russian
+ ...

MODERATOR
SITE LOCALIZER
Sorry, but ... Jul 30, 2012

LilianBoland wrote:
Most of my clients

OK, but I need to say it is a bit ...immodest. One of the best - among whom? Among how many other translators? For how many clients? Who provided the comparison?

LilianBoland wrote:
You cannot measure, nor would you even be allowed to measure
anybody's nativeness because it is almost equivalent to ethnicity or the culture the person identifies with. You could establish somebody's L1, especially for scientific research purposes...


I am a native speaker of Russian, and I will certainly know if somebody's Russian (both spoken and written) is native or not. I don't do any scientific research: if I get a translation for editing, I am able to immediately recognize if it has been done by a native speaker or not.


-- this is for the client to decide if the quality of the translation is something that is acceptable by their standards.


Quite often the client does not know the target language - how on earth can s/he decide? One of my good clients asked me if Russian is a right-to-left or a left-to-right language - how would he be able to assess the nativeness of my Russian?


 
Natalie
Natalie  Identity Verified
Poland
Local time: 05:52
Member (2002)
English to Russian
+ ...

MODERATOR
SITE LOCALIZER
Looks like... Jul 30, 2012

LilianBoland wrote:
No, I don't think you can do it according to US law


Looks like you are completely missing the point. Read the posting by Bernhard above: it explains everything quite clearly.


 
Nicole Schnell
Nicole Schnell  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 21:52
English to German
+ ...
In memoriam
He, he. This reminds me: Jul 30, 2012

LilianBoland wrote:
Many people in New York take Americans from certain parts of the country for Brits. I am not talking about very educated, linguistically knowledgeable people, but about average people in the street, young people especially, used to their backyard idiolects.


At a bar in New York some hero who overheard my German accent asked me if I were Scottish. Yeah, rrrrrightttt. You guys over there apparently hear way too many accents.


 
Marina Steinbach
Marina Steinbach
United States
Local time: 00:52
Member (2011)
English to German
I clicked. Jul 30, 2012

Angie Garbarino wrote:

Marina Steinbach wrote:


Alexandra Villeminey ist native in Spanish and German (both languages are in orange).
How did she manage to do that?


That it could be a bug, infact by clicking on the icons, the following message appears:


"
Spanish

Alexandra Villeminey has declared that this is his or her only native language"


German

Alexandra Villeminey has declared that this is his or her only native language




try clicking Marina...


[Edited at 2012-07-30 19:03 GMT]


I clicked and read the following:

"8.6 - What definition of "native speaker" is used? [Direct link]
Rather than imposing a definition of "native", the PNS program leaves the definition to members. When declaring one's own single language, a definition is not required.

In the case of those declaring multiple native languages, the speech will be deemed native if several other ProZ.com Native Speakers find it to be native (according to their own definitions.)"


(Reference: http://www.proz.com/faq/proz_com_native_speaker_credential.html#what_definition_of_native_speaker_is_used_)

Therefore, I don’t think that it’s a bug...


 
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Should “native language” claims be verified?






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