| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 90 91 92 93 94 95 96 97 98 99 100 101 102 103 104 105 106 107 108 109 110 111 112 113 114 115 116 117 118 119 120 121 122 123 124 125 126 127 128 129 130 131 132 133 134 135 136 137 138 139 140 141 142 143 144 145 146 147 148 149 150 151 152 153 154 155 156 157 158 159 160 161 162 163 164 165 166 167 168 169 170 171 172 173 174 175 176 177 178 179 180 181 182 183] > | Should “native language” claims be verified? Thread poster: XXXphxxx (X)
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[Edited at 2012-06-27 15:53 GMT]
| | | | Kirsten Bodart 
United Kingdom
Local time: 04:27
Dutch to English
+ ...
| Changing the system | Jun 27, 2012 |
Would be a good idea, but you have to make sure it is clear to outsourcers. If some Dutch outsourcers keep liking 'Dunglish', then surely others are not going to get the hang of a 'native proficiency' option (good idea, but outsourcers have to know that they want a translator with that option). They want it quick, they want it easy and they want it good. Too many categories to choose from, and they cease to care.
If outsources don't care for the 'native proficiency' tag, then you are takin... See more Would be a good idea, but you have to make sure it is clear to outsourcers. If some Dutch outsourcers keep liking 'Dunglish', then surely others are not going to get the hang of a 'native proficiency' option (good idea, but outsourcers have to know that they want a translator with that option). They want it quick, they want it easy and they want it good. Too many categories to choose from, and they cease to care.
If outsources don't care for the 'native proficiency' tag, then you are taking work away from those rare cases who do have native proficiency.
You can change your tag system, but you can't change the outsourcer.
Repeated fraud, I don't think is possible once your N-icon has been taken away, because once you have declared your native language(s), that item is fixed and you have to submit a support request if you want to change it. So, no yes-no game there.
I think in some instances it would be difficult for people to determine what their native language is. The UK has a particular 'problem' with this, because it has got so many immigrants and has had them for so long. Because of that, English has acquired such a lot of foreign words other languages would stay away from, but it also means that there are a vast number of people who essentially have two languages they lead their life in, from childhood or kindergarten even.
That is not to say, of course, that you have to have people who disregard the linguistic rules we all agree are rules (there are some we don't agree on, I gather ), though. There are boundaries.
You also have to make sure this system is applicable to all languages, not only English (where the greatest problems occur, probably). ▲ Collapse
| | | | Balasubramaniam L.
India
Local time: 07:57
Member (2006)
English to Hindi
+ ...
SITE LOCALIZER | Another thought -what about machine translation... | Jun 27, 2012 |
... are we going to demand that the machines that do the translation be native in the target language, or would the stipulation be that the proprietor of the MT engine (owner of Google Translate for example) be native in the languages in which the engine does the translations?
No, I am not joking, the way computer translation is progressing and improvement in the quality of machine translation that can be seen in the current MT engines day by day, that day may not be far when machin... See more ... are we going to demand that the machines that do the translation be native in the target language, or would the stipulation be that the proprietor of the MT engine (owner of Google Translate for example) be native in the languages in which the engine does the translations?
No, I am not joking, the way computer translation is progressing and improvement in the quality of machine translation that can be seen in the current MT engines day by day, that day may not be far when machine translation becomes so capable as to do most of the routine translations and only editing and vetting tasks would be left for human hands.
Which would make much of this discussion redundant, unless taken up in the vein of the first paragraph.
[Edited at 2012-06-27 15:48 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Ty Kendall
United Kingdom
Local time: 03:27
Hebrew to English
| "Taking birth" | Jun 27, 2012 |
Balasubramaniam L. wrote:
nativity doesn't necessarily confer proficiency.....
What all this boils down to is that the real yardstick is proficiency in the language you use and not whether your mother spoke it or not.
How can you say that nativity doesn't confer proficiency and then base your entire argument on the reverse notion that proficiency confers nativity??
And finally, coming to the issue of ethics - is it ethical to declare yourself native in a language in which you are not? We are all here to make a living out of what we do (earn money), and if giving yourself a certain label gets you more profit or earnings, the current capitalistic value system certainly gives you the moral authority to give yourself that label
Let me get this straight. It's ethical to lie as long as money is involved???????? Seriously?
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Ty Kendall
United Kingdom
Local time: 03:27
Hebrew to English
| Not so complicated...... | Jun 27, 2012 |
Kirsten Bodart wrote:
I think in some instances it would be difficult for people to determine what their native language is. The UK has a particular 'problem' with this, because it has got so many immigrants and has had them for so long. Because of that, English has acquired such a lot of foreign words other languages would stay away from, but it also means that there are a vast number of people who essentially have two languages they lead their life in, from childhood or kindergarten even.
Even in this scenario, I'm sorry but it's not difficult to identify a native language.
I can tell you from experience what happens in this situation for many immigrants to England:
1st generation: remain native speakers of whatever language was spoken from whence they came. Some learn English to a relatively proficient degree, some never learn a word.
2nd generation: the children of the first generation by the time they reach secondary school are invariably English native speakers. They might have spent the first 4 years of their life with their xx language speaking families, but the pervasive nature of English in an English environment + education in English almost always means that English becomes the dominant language, especially in writing. The other language becomes a "home language", something they can speak well at home for informal situations but not so well for anything remotely professional. In addition, without concerted efforts by themselves or their parents to maintain it, the other language either remains a rusty relic of immigration or fades away completely.
3rd generation: are almost always English native speakers. Most 3rd gen immigrants I know barely know a word of their ancestral language, some have a basic level which they use to barely understand their grandparents, but that's about it.
Not every immigrant will fit into this pattern, but many do. To peddle the belief that hoardes of immigrants are going to be "fuzzy cases" just isn't true.
| | | | Balasubramaniam L.
India
Local time: 07:57
Member (2006)
English to Hindi
+ ...
SITE LOCALIZER | Lying is an integral component of all marketing strategies | Jun 27, 2012 |
Ty Kendall wrote:
Let me get this straight. It's ethical to lie as long as money is involved???????? Seriously?
Not only money, if any gain is involved.
Don't get on a moral high horse, it is not worth it.
The truth is, lying (as you call it), is an integral part of all marketing and advertising, and our profiles are nothing but marketing statements, just like product advertisements.
A lie artfully presented becomes a winning marketing ploy.
We are all taught not to lie, but honestly, how many of us don't depend on lies and other immoralities in our lives to survive and to progress?
Think of the biblical question of that man casting the first stone that has committed no sin.
If nativity is blanketed out by the moral brigade, it is certain to surface by some other name as long as that label confers some professional or monetary advantage.
In the end, as I said, it is proficiency and quality of service that counts. Let the members claim the Moon in their profiles, but in the end it is what they deliver that will get them the next project.
No point in flagellating about non issues like nativity.
[Edited at 2012-06-27 16:09 GMT]
| | | | Ty Kendall
United Kingdom
Local time: 03:27
Hebrew to English
| I think professionalism has left the building.... | Jun 27, 2012 |
I think we'll have to agree to disagree, as I couldn't disagree more. And if nativity is a non-issue, what are the past TWENTY-TWO pages all about?
| | | | Balasubramaniam L.
India
Local time: 07:57
Member (2006)
English to Hindi
+ ...
SITE LOCALIZER | If natives are so proficient in their languages, why are there grammar and style books? | Jun 27, 2012 |
Ty Kendall wrote: Balasubramaniam L. wrote:
nativity doesn't necessarily confer proficiency.....
What all this boils down to is that the real yardstick is proficiency in the language you use and not whether your mother spoke it or not. How can you say that nativity doesn't confer proficiency and then base your entire argument on the reverse notion that proficiency confers nativity??
I have answered this question in my post.
If nativity is the hallmark of a translator, every human being (who speaks one or the other language at native level) would be a translator or a writer. But we know by experience that only a few become good translators and writers.
If every native person were born with irrefutable linguistic abilities in his native language, there would be no need for grammar books, style books, dictionaries, and stringent strictures against wrong usage, mistakes and the like - the native speaker would know every nuance of the language automatically and would not need any of these.
That there are all these things, proves that native speakers come with grave failings in their proficiency of their native languages which they have to correct by assiduous study, training, aptitude, talent, experience, etc. The process they follow to master their languages can be equally effectively adopted by other people and they can gain comparable competency over these languages which for most commercial and professional translation purposes can be considered to be adequate. Most professional translation that we do are culture-neutral and can be done by any one having proficiency in the target language, even if he is not native in the language.
While native competency may be an advantage in certain areas of translation (such as literature of culturally specific cases), it can also be a disadvantage in certain other areas. I had give an example of this in my post, non-Indian English native-speaker writing an ad copy meant for the Indian market - an Indian non-native English user would do a better job of this, as he has locale knowledge which a native-English speaker sitting in London would lack.
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Ty Kendall
United Kingdom
Local time: 03:27
Hebrew to English
| No logic or sense | Jun 27, 2012 |
Balasubramaniam L. wrote:
If nativity is the hallmark of a translator, every human being (who speaks one or the other language at native level) would be a translator or a writer.
There's absolutely no logic in this line of thinking whatsoever.
If every native person were born with irrefutable linguistic abilities in his native language, there would be no need for grammar books, style books, dictionaries, and stringent strictures against wrong usage, mistakes and the like - the native speaker would know every nuance of the language automatically and would not need any of these.
That there are all these things, proves that native speakers come with grave failings in their proficiency of their native languages which they have to correct by assiduous study, training, aptitude, talent, experience
Erm, I think you're confused. The fact that there are a plethora of PRESCRIPTIVE grammar books around most definitely does not mean that us natives can't speak or write our own language. That's ridiculous. A grammar book (if it's DESCRIPTIVE) is just a reflection of the internalised rules inherent in every native speaker's brain. If it's prescriptive, it's just a collection of Victorian nonsense and superstitions. End of.
Most professional translation that we do are culture-neutral and can be done by any one having proficiency in the target language, even if he is not native in the language
Culture neutral? Really? Most translation I do is not culture neutral. Your distinctions also disregard the chasm between native-like and actual native.
Typo*
[Edited at 2012-06-27 16:48 GMT]
| | | | Balasubramaniam L.
India
Local time: 07:57
Member (2006)
English to Hindi
+ ...
SITE LOCALIZER | Could you point out culture in "click on the "Next" button to see the full picture"? | Jun 27, 2012 |
Ty Kendall wrote: Most professional translation that we do are culture-neutral and can be done by any one having proficiency in the target language, even if he is not native in the language Culture neutral? Really? Most translation I do is not culture neutral. You're distinctions also disregard the chasm between native-like and actual native.
Ninety percent of all translations I do are of the above type.
| | | | Balasubramaniam L.
India
Local time: 07:57
Member (2006)
English to Hindi
+ ...
SITE LOCALIZER | Not so ridiculous | Jun 27, 2012 |
[quote]Ty Kendall wrote:
Balasubramaniam L. wrote: If every native person were born with irrefutable linguistic abilities in his native language, there would be no need for grammar books, style books, dictionaries, and stringent strictures against wrong usage, mistakes and the like - the native speaker would know every nuance of the language automatically and would not need any of these.
That there are all these things, proves that native speakers come with grave failings in their proficiency of their native languages which they have to correct by assiduous study, training, aptitude, talent, experience That's ridiculous.
Don't skirt the issue. Explain why there are grammar books and why native speakers have to train in the use of their native languages if being native is like a charm as you seem to claim which confers some thing unique upon the native, that non-natives cannot in this world ever acquire.
My friend, times have changed, you can't hide behind bogies like nativity to protect your turf, you have to excel in your language and that requires hard work. Unfortunately for you, non-natives too have an immense capacity for hard-work and many of them are not short of talent either.
| | | | Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 03:27
Member (2008)
Italian to English
Balasubramaniam L. wrote:
Don't skirt the issue. Explain why there are grammar books and why native speakers have to train in the use of their native languages if being native is like a charm as you seem to claim which confers some thing unique upon the native, that non-natives cannot in this world ever acquire.
My friend, times have changed, you can't hide behind bogies like nativity to protect your turf, you have to excel in your language and that requires hard work. Unfortunately for you, non-natives too have an immense capacity for hard-work and many of them are not short of talent either.
There are quite a few infelicities and mistakes in the above post. The funniest one is "bogies". Bogies are a component of passenger train carriages. It would have been even funnier (but somewhat disgusting) if you had said "bogeys".
[Edited at 2012-06-27 16:59 GMT]
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Ty Kendall
United Kingdom
Local time: 03:27
Hebrew to English
| I can't believe I'm dignifying this but.... | Jun 27, 2012 |
The reason there are grammar books etc. is because linguists like to study and write about such things. Simple. No conspiracy. Nothing.
It certainly isn't because natives NEED them to be proficient in their own language.
I don't need to argue the case for nativity. As Phil Hand pointed out earlier in the thread, the debate is closed. Nativity is accepted as a useful criterion in language/translation.
Work as hard as you like, no amount of study will make a... See more The reason there are grammar books etc. is because linguists like to study and write about such things. Simple. No conspiracy. Nothing.
It certainly isn't because natives NEED them to be proficient in their own language.
I don't need to argue the case for nativity. As Phil Hand pointed out earlier in the thread, the debate is closed. Nativity is accepted as a useful criterion in language/translation.
Work as hard as you like, no amount of study will make anyone native in a language they aren't native in to begin with. ▲ Collapse
| | | | XXXphxxx (X)
United Kingdom
Local time: 03:27
Portuguese to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | Is there a debate about this? | Jun 27, 2012 |
Balasubramaniam L. wrote:
I had give an example of this in my post, non-Indian English native-speaker writing an ad copy meant for the Indian market - an Indian non-native English user would do a better job of this, as he has locale knowledge which a native-English speaker sitting in London would lack.
I'm not sure any of us have argued against this. I would only translate into UK English. I'm constantly being offered jobs into U.S. English. The answer every time? Sorry, no can do.
I'm not sure what the problem is here. Your declared sole native language is Hindi. Nobody is taking issue with that.
[Edited at 2012-06-27 17:48 GMT]
| | | | Michele Fauble
United States
Local time: 19:27
Member (2006)
Norwegian to English
+ ...
| Grammar books for natives | Jun 27, 2012 |
Balasubramaniam L. wrote:
If natives are so proficient in their languages, why are there grammar and style books?
Native speakers have implicit knowledge of the rules of their native language. They follow these implicit rules when speaking and writing. Linguists write grammar books (descriptive grammars) attempting to make explicit what these implicit rules are.
A native speaker may have learned a version of the native language with some implicit rules that differ from those used in the standard written language. Grammar books (prescriptive grammars) are written to help these native speakers use the standard language correctly.
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