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Should “native language” claims be verified?
Thread poster: XXXphxxx (X)
BeaDeer (X)
BeaDeer (X)  Identity Verified
English to Slovenian
+ ...
SLA for other languages Sep 14, 2012

[quote]Ty Kendall wrote:

BeaDeer wrote:
Not necessarily true for all languages.


I was referring to English.

[quote]
I have misunderstood what you were saying.
My bad



Moreover, puntuation "errors" are not a result of incomplete acquisition, like non-native errors.


I did not argue they were.


 
José Henrique Lamensdorf
José Henrique Lamensdorf  Identity Verified
Brazil
Local time: 07:14
English to Portuguese
+ ...
In memoriam
An interestng aspect on having more than one language Sep 14, 2012

BeaDeer wrote:
Not necessarily true for all languages. Take Slovenian, for example - Slavonic group, highly inflected (six cases for nouns, adjectives and pronouns, three genders, four tenses, the dual number in addition to the singular and plural, the verb has 8 patterns with specific endings), and yet word endings are not the most difficult language items for us to learn. The most difficult, if not impossible to get 100% right, because we have none, are the articles (although there are workarounds, even when you can't be 100% sure).


This is a very concise explanation of why I failed to learn any usable Polish, in spite of having heard it spoken at home every day for the first 25 years of my life.

I guess that after someone has mastered this complex framework in one Slavic language, it should be easy to adapt it to another, and eventually speak and write it like a native.

I worked for a Norwegian boss in a Swedish company in Brazil. I couldn't tell when he was speaking Norwegian to his secretary or Swedish to one of the managers; they sounded the same to me. Of course, we communicated in English. I was told that nobody could tell which one was his native language.

I don't know what happens to this regard in Iberia, but the situation is sort of replicated in South America: Brazil (where Portuguese is spoken) is surrounded by Spanish-speaking countries. While for a moderately educated Brazilian it's quite easy to understand any variant of Spanish, the reverse isn't true. Spanish speakers have a hard time understanding BR Portuguese.

A fellow translator, I think from Colombia, once explained the reason to me: While PT-BR has most - if not all - the sounds used in ES, the reverse isn't true. So they can't convert into meaning sounds they can't recognize (until they learn, of course).

It is worth mentioning that there is a flock of false cognates between ES-PT, most often leading to hilarious situations.

Bottom line is that it's extremely difficult for a native ES-speaker to completely efface their accent in Portuguese. The other way around may be easier. My elder son learned Peruvian Spanish, and was taken for a 'local' in Lima.

This 'sounds' thing is widespread. When I commented on it with a Japanese JP language teacher here in Brazil, he told me, "You can drill me for half an hour on how to say any phrase in Korean, and I won't be able to enunciate it in a way that any Korean will understand. I don't 'have' their sounds.

More food for thought on this native speaker issue...


 
Michele Fauble
Michele Fauble  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 03:14
Member (2006)
Norwegian to English
+ ...
Norwegian vs Swedish Sep 14, 2012

José Henrique Lamensdorf wrote:

I worked for a Norwegian boss in a Swedish company in Brazil. I couldn't tell when he was speaking Norwegian to his secretary or Swedish to one of the managers; they sounded the same to me. Of course, we communicated in English. I was told that nobody could tell which one was his native language.


It is very unlikely he spoke Swedish. Norwegian and Swedish are mutually comprehensible. (The mutual comprehensibility of Scandinavian languages is more similar to the European Portuguese vs Brazilian Portuguese situation than the Portuguese vs Spanish situation.) I've never heard of a Norwegian learning Swedish except in cases where the Norwegian moved to Sweden and lived there for a long time.

[Edited at 2012-09-14 19:08 GMT]


 
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XXXphxxx (X)
XXXphxxx (X)  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 10:14
Portuguese to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Goodness, that's rather a huge leap! Sep 14, 2012

José Henrique Lamensdorf wrote:

I guess that after someone has mastered this complex framework in one Slavic language, it should be easy to adapt it to another, and eventually speak and write it like a native.


Not a chance. I'd say I once mastered Russian. If I understand you correctly, you're saying this means I could then "adapt" that knowledge and speak and write Polish, Ukrainian, Bulgarian, Czech etc "like a native". Not a chance, not in a million years. The same applies to natives. I don't understand how you come to that conclusion and by the same token assume that an ES speaker could never fully master PT?


Bottom line is that it's extremely difficult for a native ES-speaker to completely efface their accent in Portuguese. The other way around may be easier. My elder son learned Peruvian Spanish, and was taken for a 'local' in Lima.


While I agree that it is well known (in the circles) that ES is more easily understood by a PT but not the other way round, I beg to differ with your assessment that a PT speaker could quite easily pass for a native ES speaker. I'm sorry, but that's a complete fallacy.


 
BeaDeer (X)
BeaDeer (X)  Identity Verified
English to Slovenian
+ ...
@José Henrique - The 'sounds' thing Sep 14, 2012

José Henrique Lamensdorf wrote:
I guess that after someone has mastered this complex framework in one Slavic language, it should be easy to adapt it to another, and eventually speak and write it like a native.


Well, it shows that you are a perfectionist, always striving for excellence.
Foreigners often do learn to speak their second language better, with greater care, than many an average native speaker, why not professional translators

It is worth mentioning that there is a flock of false cognates between ES-PT, most often leading to hilarious situations.


You'd have to be extra careful not to get those mixed up in the Slavic group. The lexicons are very similar, but the amount of false cognates is enormous, and the semantic shifts astounding. For example, "bezcenny" (with an accent in Czech) means "priceless" in Polish and "worthless" in Czech; "prost" means "free" in SL but "vulgar" in Serbian; "sklad" means "harmony" in Croatian, Serbian, Bosnian, "storehouse" in Russian and "stack" or "stack of layers" in SL. And so on. A mixup could be dangerous, not just hilarious.

This 'sounds' thing is widespread. When I commented on it with a Japanese JP language teacher here in Brazil, he told me, "You can drill me for half an hour on how to say any phrase in Korean, and I won't be able to enunciate it in a way that any Korean will understand. I don't 'have' their sounds.


Thank you for the lovely anecdote. The "sounds' thing" - so true!

I do think that there are always those little things that point to the person's native language if one listens closely, be it a vowel that is a tad too short or too long, an L that is a bit too dark, a consonant too soft, whatever, but so much depends on the individual and one's ability for learning, and how important or unimportant would those be in the larger scheme of things, in the order of priorities, is another question.



























[Edited at 2012-09-14 21:11 GMT]


 
José Henrique Lamensdorf
José Henrique Lamensdorf  Identity Verified
Brazil
Local time: 07:14
English to Portuguese
+ ...
In memoriam
Bull's eye! Sep 14, 2012

Michele Fauble wrote:

José Henrique Lamensdorf wrote:

I worked for a Norwegian boss in a Swedish company in Brazil. I couldn't tell when he was speaking Norwegian to his secretary or Swedish to one of the managers; they sounded the same to me. Of course, we communicated in English. I was told that nobody could tell which one was his native language.


It is very unlikely he spoke Swedish. Norwegian and Swedish are mutually comprehensible. (The mutual comprehensibility of Scandinavian languages is more similar to the European Portuguese vs Brazilian Portuguese situation than the Portuguese vs Spanish situation.) I've never heard of a Norwegian learning Swedish except in cases where the Norwegian moved to Sweden and lived there for a long time.


The man was born in Norway, lived there until he was about 25. Then he moved to Sweden, and lived there until he was 50, when he came to Brazil.

Actually they might have a similar "logic thing" (I describe it in the last item of [url=http://www.lamensdorf.com.br/ptxbr.html]this page[/utl]) between SV-NO as we have between PT-BR. I was told that the Swedes tell similar jokes about the Norwegians. I wouldn't know.


 
José Henrique Lamensdorf
José Henrique Lamensdorf  Identity Verified
Brazil
Local time: 07:14
English to Portuguese
+ ...
In memoriam
@Lisa Sep 14, 2012

Lisa Simpson, MCIL wrote:
José Henrique Lamensdorf wrote:
I guess that after someone has mastered this complex framework in one Slavic language, it should be easy to adapt it to another, and eventually speak and write it like a native.


Not a chance. I'd say I once mastered Russian. If I understand you correctly, you're saying this means I could then "adapt" that knowledge and speak and write Polish, Ukrainian, Bulgarian, Czech etc "like a native". Not a chance, not in a million years. The same applies to natives. I don't understand how you come to that conclusion and by the same token assume that an ES speaker could never fully master PT?


Maybe the alphabet has a role in that. I wouldn't know. I know that Polish x Czech x Ukranian are close enough, maybe as much as Portuguese and Italian.

They (native ES speakers) can certainly master PT. The most difficult part of it is losing that last trace of the accent. I know people who have been living in Brazil for decades, speak flawless PT, but still have some ES accent left.

However I know one Argentinean translator, her husband is on the Proz staff, maybe you know her too, who speaks wonderful, accent-free PT-BR. Yet she claims to have learnt it all - or most - of it in Argentina.

José Henrique Lamensdorf wrote:
Bottom line is that it's extremely difficult for a native ES-speaker to completely efface their accent in Portuguese. The other way around may be easier. My elder son learned Peruvian Spanish, and was taken for a 'local' in Lima.


Lisa Simpson, MCIL wrote:

While I agree that it is well known (in the circles) that ES is more easily understood by a PT but not the other way round, I beg to differ with your assessment that a PT speaker could quite easily pass for a native ES speaker. I'm sorry, but that's a complete fallacy.


I didn't say it was easy. Though my elder son is an IT wizard, languages are not his forte; his English is pretty lame, more of it having been learned at work than in classes. Yet he studied Spanish for several years (Peruvian teacher), and has been using it daily at work.

[Edited at 2012-09-14 21:41 GMT]


 
Ty Kendall
Ty Kendall  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 10:14
Hebrew to English
Misconception Sep 14, 2012

BeaDeer wrote:
Foreigners often do learn to speak their second language better, with greater care, than many an average native speaker


I don't think that's exactly right...foreigners tend to learn a very different 'language' from the one spoken by native speakers.

Just because native speakers don't go around obeying all the rules of prescriptive grammar and don't bat an eyelid at using spoken grammar (when speaking), it doesn't mean they are more "careless" than a non-native producing sentences that their grammar teacher would be proud of. (See what I did there - dangling preposition).

I remember the first time I encountered "real Hebrew" as she is spoken after many years of study. It was a rather rude awakening as a non-native speaker.
These native Hebrew speakers were so lazy and careless! They thought nothing of using feminine numerals with masculine nouns, chopping off parts of sentences, all sorts!
Their spelling brought a tear to my eye (not the good kind) and it just seemed that they revelled in breaking every rule I'd ever been taught about forming Hebrew sentences.

So-called 'careless' speech seems to be a sign of a proper native speaker...and nothing screams non-native like stilted, bookish language.

[Edited at 2012-09-14 22:04 GMT]


 
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rjlChile (X)
rjlChile (X)
Local time: 07:14
Indeed... Sep 15, 2012

Ty Kendall wrote:

So-called 'careless' speech seems to be a sign of a proper native speaker


... the apparently 'careless' speech of a true native speaker (or writer, come to that) is very often carefully crafted (albeit instinctively) as part and parcel of the wider process of effective communication.

When a reader is oblivious to such subtleties in our use of language we can be sure that (s)he is not a native speaker - or, at the very least, that his/her learning process in our language was very different to our own.

Robin


 
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Balasubramaniam L.
Balasubramaniam L.  Identity Verified
India
Local time: 15:44
Member (2006)
English to Hindi
+ ...
SITE LOCALIZER
This discussion is not about English alone Sep 15, 2012

rjlChile wrote:
Having English as one’s native language, for example, is just such a natural asset; and in the modern world it is widely considered as being of high value (and not only in the context of translation). Faced with this unpalatable truth, folk who aren’t blessed with English as their native language but nonetheless need to use the language as a tool for getting on in life, form two groups.
...
Robin


I must point out that this discussion is not about English, but languages in general. English is just a subset of the issue, although it is a prominent subset. Your arguments of childlike jealousy being the prime motivator of this debate is at best childish.


 
Balasubramaniam L.
Balasubramaniam L.  Identity Verified
India
Local time: 15:44
Member (2006)
English to Hindi
+ ...
SITE LOCALIZER
Kindred languages are more easily mastered Sep 15, 2012

This is apropos the side discussion on picking up closely related languages like Norwegian and Swedish.

There is a lot to be said about the ease with closely related languages are picked up by people. This is routinely observed in a place like India where a number of closely related languages are spoken and these languages often have overlapping geographical areas.

If is often difficult to make out the native language of a person by just listening to his Hindi, for in d
... See more
This is apropos the side discussion on picking up closely related languages like Norwegian and Swedish.

There is a lot to be said about the ease with closely related languages are picked up by people. This is routinely observed in a place like India where a number of closely related languages are spoken and these languages often have overlapping geographical areas.

If is often difficult to make out the native language of a person by just listening to his Hindi, for in diction, word choice, and other yardsticks, the spoken output seems perfect, especially if the person happens to be a Gujarati, Punjabi, Marathi, or the speaker of one of the other north Indian languages which are very close to Hindi. Some of these languages even share the same script and all of them have a very large pool of common vocabulary which could be as high as 70% common - as all of them draw heavily from Sanskrit for their word pool.

The point I am making is that when two languages are structurally so close to each other as say Hindi and Punjabi, or Marathi and Gujarati, or Malayalam and Tamil, or Telugu and Kannada, or the above case of Norwegian and Swedish, then I think it is easier for a person knowing one language at native level to pick up the other language even at a later stage in his life.

It is at least not as difficult for a Punjabi to learn to speak Hindi, as it would be for a Chinese to speak Hindi. The level of difficulty would be measurably different for both these sets of people.

In other words, you can't apply the same language learning yardstick indiscriminately over every language combination and say that is equally difficult to learn all languages as a second language.

I would be less suspicious of a Marathi or a Punjabi speaker claiming native language competency in Hindi than of a Chinese or a Portuguese speaker claiming native language competency in Hindi.

The case of English is similar. English belongs to the same linguistic group as Hindi and the other north-Indian languages like Punjabi, Marathi, etc. - the Indo-Aryan group of languages. So structurally they are all very similar. Further, most Indians have an exposure spanning several centuries to English and it is extensively used in India in administration, business and higher education. All these contribute to Indians picking up English fairly early in their life and many of them develop their knowledge of English in later years by further study or continued professional use.
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Should “native language” claims be verified?






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