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Should “native language” claims be verified?
Thread poster: XXXphxxx (X)
Robert Forstag
Robert Forstag  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 09:48
Spanish to English
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Entirely agreed Jun 27, 2012

Phil Hand wrote:

I would certainly be happy to just accept all the borderline cases rather than argue about them. The value for us is stopping the obvious misrepresentation that makes a mockery of the Proz "native" category.


Quite right. From a practical point of view, the emphasis needs to be on identifying and removing the obvious cases of misrepresentation. These are, by definition, easy to identify.

It is possible to acknowledge, and live with, borderline and ambiguous cases, without recognition of their existence being used as an excuse to do nothing.


 
Phil Hand
Phil Hand  Identity Verified
China
Local time: 21:48
Chinese to English
Erm, it's just a website Jun 27, 2012

Diana, it seems like you're imagining Proz to be more important than it really is! No-one can "decide" what your native languages are. Certainly not a bunch of people on some website who've never met you.

But we (including you, I hope) could collectively come to an agreement about what we want it to mean when someone declares on Proz "my native language is X". Like I say, I think the best way to make sure we can all agree is to allow all borderline cases. If you spent your first 10
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Diana, it seems like you're imagining Proz to be more important than it really is! No-one can "decide" what your native languages are. Certainly not a bunch of people on some website who've never met you.

But we (including you, I hope) could collectively come to an agreement about what we want it to mean when someone declares on Proz "my native language is X". Like I say, I think the best way to make sure we can all agree is to allow all borderline cases. If you spent your first 10 years speaking Romanian, are a competent speaker of Romanian (that's an important point for a translator's website: any outsourcer will assume that someone who says she is native in X means that she still speaks X), and you want to declare that you are a native speaker of Romanian on Proz - well, I wouldn't want to stop you. And I would urge everyone else to go with it as well.

Hmm.

Actually, that's interesting. So it sounds like I'm edging towards a distinctively Prozian (translator-related) understanding of "native" here.
1. Don't get into acquisition window debates - as long as it's vaguely childhood-related, it'll do.
2. Insist that the language must be current to count for Proz purposes, because outsourcers have no interest in languages you've forgotten!

Anyway, as I've stressed a number of times: you're not the person whose conduct I would like to change. I would like to catch the blatant lies - someone who has never spent an extended time in an English (it's often English) environment, but who claims English as a native language.

I'm going to keep repeating this until people start getting it. If my fingers start bleeding, then I'll buy Dragon.
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XXXphxxx (X)
XXXphxxx (X)  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 13:48
Portuguese to English
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TOPIC STARTER
Diana, you’re not the only one Jun 27, 2012

Phil Hand wrote:

Diana, it seems like you're imagining Proz to be more important than it really is! No-one can "decide" what your native languages are. Certainly not a bunch of people on some website who've never met you.



I agree with Phil, plus I would like to add that this site is full of people with complicated backgrounds and multiple language influences (me included); it’s one of the reasons so many of us are linguists. However, I repeat what I’ve essentially said to Kirsten above. By all means put Romanian down as your native language, I’m not sure anyone would dispute that and you’d still be better off than you are with the two unverified languages you have at present.


 
BeaDeer (X)
BeaDeer (X)  Identity Verified
English to Slovenian
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Tiny suggestion Jun 27, 2012

>On a normal professional language site (I'm thinking of the professional associations),
everyone would have some form of verified credentials and would know only to translate into their native language – there would hardly be an argument.
This isn't the case here, <

I said as much earlier in the discussion (albeit possibly in a different thread?).

>anybody can join this site, anybody can become a translator overnight; it's not a question of the bar bein
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>On a normal professional language site (I'm thinking of the professional associations),
everyone would have some form of verified credentials and would know only to translate into their native language – there would hardly be an argument.
This isn't the case here, <

I said as much earlier in the discussion (albeit possibly in a different thread?).

>anybody can join this site, anybody can become a translator overnight; it's not a question of the bar being low, it simply doesn't exist. <

Proz does offer customers the option to choose folks with verified (submitted to Proz) recognized (officially valid) credentials.
Members can also apply for the process of peer verification (if I understand the red button thing correctly?).

>For this reason, I suppose, the site has allowed members to declare their native languages so that outsourcers at least know that they are getting a translator translating into their "native language", it's up to them to trust the credentials (whether verified or not) and experience declared on the individual’s profile. One of the main grumbles on the site is poorly paid jobs, however if we cannot offer some guarantee of quality (currently non-existent) then that's all we're going to continue to attract; it's a downward spiral and in fact, it's no longer even spiralling, it's just plummeting. <

What about introducing an option for declaring one's proficiency, independently of the proposed native-verification scale, for those working into L2? Near-native proficiency, professional proficiency and perhaps link that with specialisms/working areas?

(No bricks, please, I already have a couple from another thread)





[Edited at 2012-06-27 13:26 GMT]
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Romana Vlcek
Romana Vlcek  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 14:48
Member
English to German
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Native Language versus Native Speaker Competence Jun 27, 2012

I am not able to even write a private letter without mistakes in my "native language", which is Czech. However, I do have "native speaker competence" in German, which I started to learn at age 7.

I have been a professional translator, translating INTO GERMAN (not my native language), for 25 years. Already at university where I partly regained some knowledge of my "native language" Czech, the administrators were intelligent enough to distinguish between "native language" (DE: Mutter
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I am not able to even write a private letter without mistakes in my "native language", which is Czech. However, I do have "native speaker competence" in German, which I started to learn at age 7.

I have been a professional translator, translating INTO GERMAN (not my native language), for 25 years. Already at university where I partly regained some knowledge of my "native language" Czech, the administrators were intelligent enough to distinguish between "native language" (DE: Muttersprache) and what they called "Bildungssprache" (the language in which you have acquired your school education and in which you are proficient).

Unless the administrators of this forum learn to make the same distinction, the forced indication of a verified "native language" would immediately lead to wrong assumptions and misunderstandings in cases like mine. If I was forced to truthfully enter my real native language into that window, instead of the language in which I am proficient, potential clients would assume that I am able to translate into Czech, which I am not - and the whole site would defeat its purpose!
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Diana Coada (X)
Diana Coada (X)  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 13:48
Portuguese to English
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Phil and Lisa Jun 27, 2012

You did not get my point. My point was that:

1. In the world we live in, the concept of ''native language'' is outdated
2. No test will ever be able to tell anyone what language I feel most comfortable with
3. If I feel most comfortable with language X, then I should be able to declare it as a native language (given the ProZ system, which, I agree, should be changed)

I also do not think that any of us will be willing to be submitted to any type of verificat
... See more
You did not get my point. My point was that:

1. In the world we live in, the concept of ''native language'' is outdated
2. No test will ever be able to tell anyone what language I feel most comfortable with
3. If I feel most comfortable with language X, then I should be able to declare it as a native language (given the ProZ system, which, I agree, should be changed)

I also do not think that any of us will be willing to be submitted to any type of verification of our knowledge because of a few Chinese translators..
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Ty Kendall
Ty Kendall  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 13:48
Hebrew to English
Fear not Romana Jun 27, 2012

Again, you would not be affected by this for the following reasons:

a) you only state one native language - German.
b) it's pretty obvious from your CV/Profile that your formative years were spent in a German speaking environment and that you were educated almost entirely in the same environment.

I don't think anyone in their right mind would accuse you of not being native in German.

Again, I think we do need to root out all those clear cut cases, as
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Again, you would not be affected by this for the following reasons:

a) you only state one native language - German.
b) it's pretty obvious from your CV/Profile that your formative years were spent in a German speaking environment and that you were educated almost entirely in the same environment.

I don't think anyone in their right mind would accuse you of not being native in German.

Again, I think we do need to root out all those clear cut cases, as they don't do anybody any favours - especially fellow non-natives - whose reputations they only serve to sully by association.
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writeaway
writeaway  Identity Verified
French to English
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Give people the option to claim 'native proficiency' Jun 27, 2012

Diana Coada wrote:

You did not get my point. My point was that:

1. In the world we live in, the concept of ''native language'' is outdated
2. No test will ever be able to tell anyone what language I feel most comfortable with
3. If I feel most comfortable with language X, then I should be able to declare it as a native language (given the ProZ system, which, I agree, should be changed)

I also do not think that any of us will be willing to be submitted to any type of verification of our knowledge because of a few Chinese translators..


Then the option should be given to list 'native proficiency'. And outsourcers should be given the option to click a 'native proficiency' button when they post jobs.
It's better than feeling obliged to lie about one's actual native language (which is not an outdated concept imo -why would it be?)


 
Ty Kendall
Ty Kendall  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 13:48
Hebrew to English
Can't be swept away.... Jun 27, 2012

Diana Coada wrote:
1. In the world we live in, the concept of ''native language'' is outdated


I disagree, I think this is proverbially "sweeping it under the carpet". In the UK, we are often told that the concept of "race" is outdated in an attempt to eradicate racism. Nice sentiment, but factually inaccurate. Claiming that something is irrelevant when it clearly is not doesn't solve anything.

because of a few Chinese translators..


Unfortunately the problem extends far beyond a few errant Chinese translators.


 
XXXphxxx (X)
XXXphxxx (X)  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 13:48
Portuguese to English
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TOPIC STARTER
@ Diana Jun 27, 2012

Diana Coada wrote:

If I feel most comfortable with language X, then I should be able to declare it as a native language


You still appear to misunderstand what we're trying to say. You declare the language you think is your native language, nobody else is deciding this for you. You would then have one verified native language, rather than the two unverified ones you have at present. If anyone felt that your claim of a native language was fraudulent they would have to prove it to the site, exactly in the same way as they are able to do at present.

This is nothing to do with a few Chinese translators, the problem is a good deal more widespread than that.


 
Phil Hand
Phil Hand  Identity Verified
China
Local time: 21:48
Chinese to English
That sounds like we agree, then Jun 27, 2012

Diana Coada wrote:
...the ProZ system, which, I agree, should be changed...


Cool. Please offer some ideas, because I'm starting to run dry!

I also do not think that any of us will be willing to be submitted to any type of verification of our knowledge because of a few Chinese translators..


Agreed, the objective is to make this minimally invasive on everyone else. Hence the whole discussion on how to go about this. Samuel's proposed an idea which doesn't involve any kind of verification. Robert's proposal is what Jared says happens now - abuses can be quietly reported to staff. We're still chewing over whether these will achieve the desired goals.

Like Ty said, I think you're wrong to believe that native is no longer relevant. Outsourcers use this option a lot when they post jobs on Proz, and the translation associations all refer to nativeness as a relevant concept. It's not gone. But it does need periodic sprucing up.

@Romana
Some definitions of native would say you're not German native; other definitions would say you are.
Either way, you're definitely not the problem, and I absolutely agree that Proz should not take any actions which would stop you from listing German as your native language.


 
Kim Metzger
Kim Metzger  Identity Verified
Mexico
Local time: 07:48
German to English
Jun 27, 2012



[Edited at 2012-06-27 15:41 GMT]


 
Michele Fauble
Michele Fauble  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 06:48
Member (2006)
Norwegian to English
+ ...
Borderline and ambiguous cases Jun 27, 2012

Robert Forstag wrote:

Quite right. From a practical point of view, the emphasis needs to be on identifying and removing the obvious cases of misrepresentation. These are, by definition, easy to identify.

It is possible to acknowledge, and live with, borderline and ambiguous cases, without recognition of their existence being used as an excuse to do nothing.


Use the clear cases to arrive at a definition of native language, then use the definition to help clarify the borderline and ambiguous cases.


 
Balasubramaniam L.
Balasubramaniam L.  Identity Verified
India
Local time: 19:18
Member (2006)
English to Hindi
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SITE LOCALIZER
It is proficiency in the language that counts, not nativity Jun 27, 2012

Samuel Murray wrote:

The problem with "native language" is that it is subjective. Even honest folk who would pass all your controls claim "native language" based on their own, subjective interpretation of what that means.

I think ProZ.com deliberately avoided the "what is a native language" issue by keeping it simple: let the user decide his status for himself. This is not a bad solution, unless being native has commercial value... and in ProZ.com's searches and job post systems, it has.

My solution to this would be to do away with the concept of "native language" altogether, and replace it something that is more relevant to translators, namely "best language combination". But let's not call it that -- call it "primary language combination".

It would still be up to the translator to declare it, and it would still be subjective.


I would have no problem in seconding this idea. The whole issue of native language is a bit contrived according to me, and there is more than a grain of truth in the"protecting a particular linguistic turf" idea that has come up a number of times in this thread itself.

The real issue is not about nativity in a language, but proficiency in it, and nativity doesn't necessarily confer proficiency over a language upon anyone. The level of proficiency that a linguistic activity like translation or creative writing demands, does not come naturally but has to be acquired arduously by long experience, practice, aptitude and force of circumstance. Which is why all human beings (who all speak some language or the other at native level) don't become translators and writers and only a handful of them do so. What this proves is that more than being born into a culture or a language is required to become a good translator. And focusing exclusively on just nativity is to take the tip of the iceberg to be the whole iceberg.

I don't know how many of those who have participated in this thread are from a real multi-lingual background, but my guess is that not many would be. Most of them seem to be from single-language cultures and countries. So it would be difficult for them to appreciate, or even understand, how common it is in those parts of the world like India where more than a dozen languages are spoken (each with more than 50 million people) for people taking birth in one language belt and moving on to another language belt during the course of their life and how many of them acquire native-level competence in two and sometimes more languages, often to such a high-level of proficiency that their command over the languages to which they have been exposed to is in no way different than that of "native" speakers. This phenomenon is more readily seen in large cities like Mumbai (Hindi, Marathi), Kolkata (Hindi, Bengali), Ahmedabad (Hindi, Gujarati) to name a few, but it is a general phenomenon throughout the country.

Another factor that needs to be taken into account, and which again has cropped up several times in this thread itself, is the special status of international languages like English, French, Arabic, Spanish, Hindi, Bengali, Portuguese, etc. which are languages that have moved so much out of their geographical and cultural moorings that today, there more non-native users of these languages than native users, and it would be a prevarication of fact to claim that native speakers set the trend of these languages.

The nativity issue is relevant only to closed languages which have never travelled outside their original geographical area and so people outside that area are unlikely to know the nuances of these languages. For languages like English, being native in them is no hallmark of quality. In fact, in advertising copy for India, for example, it would be more pertinent to specify that the English copywriters are not from UK, USA, Candada, etc., for they are unlikely to have sufficient grounding in the locale of India and the English they use would be inappropriate for a setting like India, where an Indian English user would be more appropriate.

This comes over more forcefully when I watch TV progammes. I watch English programmes broadcast by Indian TV channels, British TV channels (BBC), and American channels like CNN, etc., and I notice how much more I am able to comprehend the English programmes of Indian channels and how ridiculous the accents of BBC and American anchors appears to my Indian ears trained to Indian English.

What all this boils down to is that the real yardstick is proficiency in the language you use and not whether your mother spoke it or not.

And finally, coming to the issue of ethics - is it ethical to declare yourself native in a language in which you are not? We are all here to make a living out of what we do (earn money), and if giving yourself a certain label gets you more profit or earnings, the current capitalistic value system certainly gives you the moral authority to give yourself that label, provided you are able to pull it off. Look at the product advertisement of almost any product or services in the market and compare their claims with what they actually offer. Don't they all inflate their claims and stretch the truth just by so much? It is nothing but marketing.

It is up to the consumer to verify the claims and ascertain the truth, not for the peddler of the products.

Sites like proz.com, as I see it, are only the TV sets sitting on our sitting room, they cannot be expected to verify the content (advertisements) that spews out of it, it is for those sitting on the couches before it to do that.


 
Michele Fauble
Michele Fauble  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 06:48
Member (2006)
Norwegian to English
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Native language concept Jun 27, 2012

Diana Coada wrote:

1. In the world we live in, the concept of ''native language'' is outdated


Tell that to the linguists and second language acquisition researchers.


 
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