| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 90 91 92 93 94 95 96 97 98 99 100 101 102 103 104 105 106 107 108 109 110 111 112 113 114 115 116 117 118 119 120 121 122 123 124 125 126 127 128 129 130 131 132 133 134 135 136 137 138 139 140 141 142 143 144 145 146 147 148 149 150 151 152 153 154 155 156 157 158 159 160 161 162 163 164 165 166 167 168 169 170 171 172 173 174 175 176 177 178 179 180 181 182 183] > | Should “native language” claims be verified? Thread poster: XXXphxxx (X)
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Ty Kendall 
United Kingdom
Local time: 15:22
Hebrew to English
| So off topic it's on another planet | Jun 23, 2012 |
Shiya Luo wrote:
I don't think simply being a great writer can produce competent medical or patent translations.
I never said it did. My point was that people highly competent in respected professions aren't necessarily good writers. It's not necessarily a prerequisite for their careers. Therefore, the fact that you view your English (writing) as better than theirs doesn't necessarily mean your writing is actually on par with a native speaker translator.
What I have seen in the translations I have came across, was many native speakers produce incorrect translations when they don't understand the material. Same probably occurs in medical and legal fields.
Lack of subject knowledge is a whole other ball game, and one which can afflict both native and non-native translators alike.
| | | | | My red pen :-) | Jun 23, 2012 |
Lisa Simpson, MCIL wrote: Charlie Bavington wrote:
I have, for instance, knowingly reviewed the work of many people on proz, including a contributor to this thread What do you mean? I don't know the names of anyone whose work I review.
I occasionally get to find out, without trying. A few times an agency has simply told me (conversations along lines of "I found this person xxxx on proz [usually], would you mind reviewing it as it's the first one they've done for me"), and it's also surprising how many people seem to make a point of changing the document properties, and so the name just appears when you select it from the folder, you don't even have to go looking for it
| | | | Shiya Luo
Local time: 07:22
English to Chinese
+ ...
| You have your point | Jun 23, 2012 |
Ty Kendall wrote:
Therefore, the fact that you view your English (writing) as better than theirs doesn't necessarily mean your writing is actually on par with a native speaker translator.
Maybe not comparable to you, but you'd be surprised.
We had a discussion on the Chinese forum about this:
http://www.proz.com/forum/chinese/225731-产品_公司名称翻译-page2.html
The first sentence was from a native English speaker, the second from a native Chinese speaker. Better style on the first one? probably. Still doesn't make it a correct translation.
| | | | Ty Kendall
United Kingdom
Local time: 15:22
Hebrew to English
| Je ne parle pas français, or Chinese. | Jun 23, 2012 |
So it's hard for me to draw any conclusions from the thread you quote.
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Phil Hand
China
Local time: 22:22
Chinese to English
| Oh, for goodness sake, Shiya | Jun 23, 2012 |
Really? You're making that argument? You've once seen a bad English-speaking translator of Chinese, therefore your English is native level? How does the logic even work there?
Look, our pair is unusual, in that it is dominated by source-native translators. There is a long and interesting debate to be had (hopefully with some input from Japanese colleagues) about what the Chinese-English industry should look like. But that's irrelevant to the issue at hand.
You reckon y... See more Really? You're making that argument? You've once seen a bad English-speaking translator of Chinese, therefore your English is native level? How does the logic even work there?
Look, our pair is unusual, in that it is dominated by source-native translators. There is a long and interesting debate to be had (hopefully with some input from Japanese colleagues) about what the Chinese-English industry should look like. But that's irrelevant to the issue at hand.
You reckon you're native English - fine. There are many in our pair who are not, but who claim to be. What, if anything, should be done about them? ▲ Collapse
| | | | Samuel Murray
Netherlands
Local time: 16:22
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
Phil Hand wrote:
Like you say there is a category of bilinguals who'd be frustrated by this: say a Swiss guy who really is native in French and German, but who lives in Spain.
Or a Nigerian who now lives in the US.
3) Samuel's: One native language, no checks. Second native language granted only if resident where the second language is spoken.
Actually my idea is that second native language is granted only if the translator resident in a country where BOTH those languages are spoken [as native language by relatively large number of people]. Otherwise it would allow any immigrant to claim native language where he lives.
| | | | Michele Fauble
United States
Local time: 07:22
Member (2006)
Norwegian to English
+ ...
| Native language | Jun 23, 2012 |
Charlie Bavington wrote: So, let's delete the native language field, which serves no useful purpose, then no-one can lie about it
If it did not serve a useful purpose, no one would lie about it.
| | | | Michele Fauble
United States
Local time: 07:22
Member (2006)
Norwegian to English
+ ...
| Native language | Jun 23, 2012 |
Shiya Luo wrote:
I have seen many, many natives with worse writing than me. Does that mean that they have no native language at all?
No, it means that they write their native language badly. Whatever mistakes they make will be native language mistakes, not the the kind of mistakes made by someone who has learned the language as a foreign language.
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| What is really the problem | Jun 23, 2012 |
I can't stop wondering what the problem is. There are many rare languages not too many native speakers, born and residing at all times in the country where they were born, could translate from, Chinese and other Asian languages among them. Who should translate then? Some of the claims on some sites are really Utopian. We want a native speaker born in the country where their L1 is the main language, we want 100% proficiency in another language, we need academic writing in the field of medicine ( ... See more I can't stop wondering what the problem is. There are many rare languages not too many native speakers, born and residing at all times in the country where they were born, could translate from, Chinese and other Asian languages among them. Who should translate then? Some of the claims on some sites are really Utopian. We want a native speaker born in the country where their L1 is the main language, we want 100% proficiency in another language, we need academic writing in the field of medicine ( and our budget is $20, or something like that) This is a real problem, not what somebody considers their native language. It is a very sensitive issue because some people could have been born in a country the culture of which they don't identify with, being an ethnic minority, and then they moved to a different country perhaps. Translators are people from multi-lingual families, often, people who move around and don't stay in one place, many of them at least. A more serious problem is that people who have no clue about anything related to medicine translate papers related to cancer treatment. This is really alarming, not somebody's idea of his or her native language. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Phil Hand
China
Local time: 22:22
Chinese to English
| So, time to actually put it to the site... | Jun 24, 2012 |
Robert Forstag wrote:
Simply allow individuals to privately alert staff to blatant instances of misrepresentation, and trust (for, in the end, trust we must) that staff will take appropriate action.
Well, Robert's suggestion is certainly the one likely to cause the least ripples. Let's get an answer. Jared, please could you tell us if Robert's suggestion is workable?
| | | | | Why is it so hard... | Jun 24, 2012 |
Why is it so hard to admit that one is not a native speaker of a certain language when someone is not able to express himself/herself in a natural way? One can still translate into this non-native language, but why on earth should one be lying about his/her nativeness?? I think outsourcers appreciate the fact that one knows not only what he/she is capable to do but also where the own limitations are. I do it all the time when I am asked to translate into German. No, I won´t do it and if I do - ... See more Why is it so hard to admit that one is not a native speaker of a certain language when someone is not able to express himself/herself in a natural way? One can still translate into this non-native language, but why on earth should one be lying about his/her nativeness?? I think outsourcers appreciate the fact that one knows not only what he/she is capable to do but also where the own limitations are. I do it all the time when I am asked to translate into German. No, I won´t do it and if I do - like I *once* did as a favour to a long term client who knew from the beginning that I am only native in Spanish -, I emphasize again, that I am not a native German speaker. That was ok for him since it was a very easy text, they knew me already for a long time and wanted me to do it. A German native speaker proofread it though, of course.
When I tell a client: "I am not the right person for this job and I am sure you will find someone who would do a much better job than me", I am not losing any business chance at all, on the contrary. The clients are always glad that I am honest and always come back to me offering me jobs in my language pair and specialty. From my honesty they have learned that when I say: "I can do it", then I will deliver high quality, they trust my judgement of my own capabilities and that´s even more profitable in the long run.
The fact that some native speakers make mistakes and use their own native language poorly is not an argument for anybody who expresses himself/herself in an unnatural manner to claim it to also be their native language. Native speakers make *other* kind of mistakes that maybe a non-native speaker would never do, but their way to build sentences will always be natural and native-like because it´s really native!
For example, there are many Germans that confuse words like "das / dass" (the/that) or "seid / seit" (you are / since). They are not misunderstanding the meaning but often, when it comes to writing, they use it wrongly, I don´t know why. That´s a mistake I would never do because I learnt German as a foreign language and maybe I learnt precisely to avoid this kind of mistakes by heart in order to be as good as I can, and I am really good. However, and despite the university education received in Germany and all the years spent living there, I am *not* a native speaker of German. When I write, maybe my sentences are grammatically perfect, but still some of them DON´T SOUND NATURAL. And that´s a fact, and that´s what our native English speakers colleagues are trying to say to Shiya. It is always better not to overestimate the own capabilities and not only to be honest with the world but with one self at the first place.
No, I really don´t get what this whole "I am good enough to be native" is all about. Nativeness can´t be learned.
[Edited at 2012-06-24 12:33 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Indeed it is... | Jun 24, 2012 |
Phil Hand wrote: Robert Forstag wrote:
Simply allow individuals to privately alert staff to blatant instances of misrepresentation, and trust (for, in the end, trust we must) that staff will take appropriate action. Well, Robert's suggestion is certainly the one likely to cause the least ripples. Let's get an answer. Jared, please could you tell us if Robert's suggestion is workable?
But this would only be obvious if that certain person is not a silent forum member. I mean, non natives claiming to be natives that never participate in KudoZ or the forum would never be caught, but they would still be able to apply for jobs because they lie (or overestimate themselves).
Assuming that everybody has one native language (I consider persons with no native language to be a minority and by far not the rule), I think Lisa´s suggestion is the best. This would not mean much work for the site staff. We peers would assume some of the efforts to evaluate the nativeness of a person, when this person applies for a second native language.
[Edited at 2012-06-24 09:27 GMT]
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Paul Stevens
Local time: 15:22
Member (2003)
Spanish to English
+ ...
| No ideal solution for everyone | Jun 24, 2012 |
I agree with Nina that Robert's suggestion would only be workbale for those who are active on the site forums and/or KudoZ and, regardless of that, I would not be in favour of it unless I knew what "appropriate action" the site staff would take and was happy that such action would be implemented without exceptions.
From the interesting discussion in this thread, it seems clear that there is no solution/scenario that would please everyone, but I believe that Lisa's suggestion is the... See more I agree with Nina that Robert's suggestion would only be workbale for those who are active on the site forums and/or KudoZ and, regardless of that, I would not be in favour of it unless I knew what "appropriate action" the site staff would take and was happy that such action would be implemented without exceptions.
From the interesting discussion in this thread, it seems clear that there is no solution/scenario that would please everyone, but I believe that Lisa's suggestion is the best so far. That's not to say that it does not have drawbacks and Shiya has already stated one, namely that members could declare their first language as their second "native" language and thus circumvent any potential problem with obtaining "native" status in another language. I can't immediately think of a way around this, but if one could be found, I would be in favour and those with justifiable claims to more than one native language should have nothing to fear.
[Edited at 2012-06-24 07:48 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Of course... | Jun 24, 2012 |
Paul Stevens wrote:
That's not to say that it does not have drawbacks and Shiya has already stated one, namely that members could declare their first language as their second "native" language and thus circumvent any potential problem with obtaining "native" status in another language. I can't immediately think of a way around this, but if one could be found, I would be in favour and those with justifiable claims to more than one native language should have nothing to fear.
That´s true and if someone is abusing of the "native status" on purpose, there is nothing one can do to stop them from doing this. But in adition to Lisa´s suggestion it should be still possible to report a person to proz staff if there are clear signs of abuse. I mean: if someone really claims their second language to be their native language, gets - of course - their actual native language as a second native language accepted and later someone discovers the first native language is actually not their native language. Then one should be able to report this and because of this serious doubts there should be the same verification process evaluated by peers. What do you think about this?
| | | | Ty Kendall
United Kingdom
Local time: 15:22
Hebrew to English
| Head + Brick wall | Jun 24, 2012 |
LilianBoland wrote:
I can't stop wondering what the problem is. There are many rare languages not too many native speakers, born and residing at all times in the country where they were born, could translate from, Chinese and other Asian languages among them. Who should translate then?
Seriously, these exceptions have been dealt with. Go back to page 2 or 3. I, for one, am getting a bit weary of saying the same thing again and again.
A more serious problem is that people who have no clue about anything related to medicine translate papers related to cancer treatment. This is really alarming, not somebody's idea of his or her native language.
I agree, it is alarming, but it's also a completely different issue and deserves its own discussion and shouldn't keep being brought up here. Another time, another place - fine.
[Edited at 2012-06-24 08:28 GMT]
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