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Should “native language” claims be verified?
Thread poster: XXXphxxx (X)
psicutrinius
psicutrinius  Identity Verified
Spain
Local time: 15:50
Member (2008)
Spanish to English
+ ...
@Samuel: About Spain Jul 15, 2012

As a native Spaniard, I think I can answer some of your questions:

1) There are a number of dialects of Spain's Spanish AND four LANGUAGES in Spain. These are Spanish (Castilian, from its origin), Catalan, Gallego and Euskera (Basque).

2) I have been born in Catalonia (Barcelona), quite a number of years ago by the way. My father was from the Canary Islands and my mother Catalan, so I have been raised in both (we spoke Spanish with dad, and Catalan among ourselves and m
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As a native Spaniard, I think I can answer some of your questions:

1) There are a number of dialects of Spain's Spanish AND four LANGUAGES in Spain. These are Spanish (Castilian, from its origin), Catalan, Gallego and Euskera (Basque).

2) I have been born in Catalonia (Barcelona), quite a number of years ago by the way. My father was from the Canary Islands and my mother Catalan, so I have been raised in both (we spoke Spanish with dad, and Catalan among ourselves and mainly out in the street) and am thus bilingual, BUT:

3) There was a civil war in Spain, 1936 -1939, and Catalonia (and the Basque country) were among the losers. As a result, while speaking Catalan could not be quashed by the victors, all writing and, further, all teaching at all levels was forbidden: You went to school (and, over that, up to and including, the University) IN Spanish, you were taught IN (and how to write and speak) Spanish and it was really very difficult to find anything in Catalan, either as reading material or -more so- teaching materials for learning Catalan.

4) As a result, I speak currently both (and use Catalan much more on a daily basis) and Spanish with a Catalan accent, but -because writing in Catalan is quite more complicated than is in Spanish- I cannot write FAULTLESS Catalan -which I can do in Spanish.

5) This has changed quite a bit lately: Now you are taught IN Catalan (which is called the "vehicular" language), and you are also taught Spanish -the idea is to be REALLY and FULLY bilingual.
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Angie Garbarino
Angie Garbarino  Identity Verified
Local time: 15:50
Member (2003)
French to Italian
+ ...
Dialects are dialects, languages are languages Jul 15, 2012

NO, it does NOT depend, languages are languages and dialects are dialects, also it does not absolutely matter if a language is spoken in a different way inside a country in which it is official, otherwise we should say that in Italy there are at least 30 variants of SPOKEN Italian.

What matters is not the way in which a language is spoken but the way in which it is written as a dialect has its own grammar and can be written.
<
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NO, it does NOT depend, languages are languages and dialects are dialects, also it does not absolutely matter if a language is spoken in a different way inside a country in which it is official, otherwise we should say that in Italy there are at least 30 variants of SPOKEN Italian.

What matters is not the way in which a language is spoken but the way in which it is written as a dialect has its own grammar and can be written.

Please see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dialect


[Edited at 2012-07-15 10:58 GMT]
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Ty Kendall
Ty Kendall  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 14:50
Hebrew to English
I actually agree Jul 15, 2012

Angie Garbarino wrote:



NO, it does NOT depend, languages are languages and dialects are dialects, also it does not absolutely matter if a language is spoken in a different way inside a country in which it is official, otherwise we should say that in Italy there are at least 30 variants of SPOKEN Italian.

What matters is not the way in which a language is spoken but the way in which it is written as a dialect has its own grammar and can be written.

Please see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dialect


[Edited at 2012-07-15 10:50 GMT]


I'm not sure why dialects were brought up........ seeing that we work with the written word, which without exception, is the standardised variety of the language in question. If you are educated (which translators are) then you will have access to this form of the language, regardless of what native dialect you speak.


 
Nani Delgado
Nani Delgado  Identity Verified
Spain
German to Spanish
Well, let´s make some things clear. :) Jul 15, 2012

In Spain there are in fact 4 languages: Castellano, Gallego, Catalán und Euskera (vascuence). They are not considered as dialects but as languages. All of them are normalised and have their own normalisation (or is it called standarisation) institutes: Real Academia Española for Castellano, Euskaltzaindia for Euskera, Real Academia Gallega for gallego and Direcció General de Política Lingüística for Catalán.

These 3 other languages (Catalán, Euskera und Gallego) are only off
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In Spain there are in fact 4 languages: Castellano, Gallego, Catalán und Euskera (vascuence). They are not considered as dialects but as languages. All of them are normalised and have their own normalisation (or is it called standarisation) institutes: Real Academia Española for Castellano, Euskaltzaindia for Euskera, Real Academia Gallega for gallego and Direcció General de Política Lingüística for Catalán.

These 3 other languages (Catalán, Euskera und Gallego) are only official in their respective regions, but Castellano is official for EVERYONE in Spain.

Besides them there are also dialects. As far as I know, Mallorquín and Valenciano are considered to be dialects of Catalán, but I might be wrong. And, of course, lots of different pronuciation in Spanish depending on where you come from. But I don´t consider the Spanish spoken in Andalusia or Madrid to be dialects because they share absolutely the same written rules. They just are spoken differently, with a different accent. You also might find that certain regions prefer using a word over others for certain concepts, but that´s not a big issue, we just have a rich vocabulary. The difference is much bigger between Spanish from Spain and Spanish from Latin America. They are different varieties that one has to take into consideration when it comes to translating. I only translate to spanish Spanish (do you say it that way?) and wouldn´t dare to translate into any other variety. But, of course, all native speakers of all this different varieties are of course native speakers of Spanish, despite of me sometimes not understanding what they mean when they say a certain word. And I mean really at vocabulary level, for example I knew someone from Perú that called a petrol station "grifo", which is the way Spaniards call "tap" in Spain (petrol station would be "gasolinera"). Apart from vocabulary issues, native speakers of Spanish understand each other as well as I suppose BE and AE would understand each other.

I´ll tell you a bit about my own experience: my parents are from Andalusia, but my family had to move to Barcelona for a couple of years - for work - and I was born in Barcelona, where I lived the first 5 years of my life. We moved to Andalusia when I was 5 years old. In Cataluña I was mainly exposed to Spanish: my parents and other family and everybody outside home talked to me in Spanish and I only got to hear Catalán at kindergarten. I only spoke a couple of words of Catalán, could sing songs in Catalán and understood it good enough, but that was all. I have never used Catalán again, it never was my native language and never will be, although similarities with Spanish make it easy for me to understand some Catalán. As far as I could see, children in Cataluña grow up being perfectly bilingual. And, as far as I know, Catalán is also taught in school. I believe people born and raised in Cataluña are Spanish and Catalán bilinguals because they are exposed to both of them since they are born, and not only speak both languages but learn them both at school.

I am not sure but I suppose this could also apply to people born and raised in Galicia and Euskadi.


[Edited at 2012-07-15 11:37 GMT]
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Nani Delgado
Nani Delgado  Identity Verified
Spain
German to Spanish
oh, psicutrinius was faster than me. Jul 15, 2012

Well, I was too slow, and in the meantime psicutrinius posted a similar answer than me. But we mean pretty much the same.

 
Catherine GUILLIAUMET
Catherine GUILLIAUMET  Identity Verified
Local time: 15:50
English to French
+ ...
In memoriam
Like in Algeria Jul 15, 2012

psicutrinius wrote:

As a native Spaniard, I think I can answer some of your questions:

BUT:

3) There was a civil war in Spain, 1936 -1939, and Catalonia (and the Basque country) were among the losers. As a result, while speaking Catalan could not be quashed by the victors, all writing and, further, all teaching at all levels was forbidden: You went to school (and, over that, up to and including, the University) IN Spanish, you were taught IN (and how to write and speak) Spanish and it was really very difficult to find anything in Catalan, either as reading material or -more so- teaching materials for learning Catalan.

4) As a result, I speak currently both (and use Catalan much more on a daily basis) and Spanish with a Catalan accent, but -because writing in Catalan is quite more complicated than is in Spanish- I cannot write FAULTLESS Catalan -which I can do in Spanish.


Very interesting, psicutrinius.

It reminds me the case of Algeria, when it was considered as a French "département", not as an independent country.

I know a man, who is now 82 y.o., who was born is "Kabylie" (a region in the North of Algeria), the language of which is "Kabyle", which belongs to the "Berberian" family of languages.
When he was a child, the French authorities were imposing French as the "only and official" language in whole Algeria. Arabic was forbidden, Berber was forbidden, Kabyle was forbidden.
So, this man -who was lucky enough to belong to a family which could afford a good education to their children - speaks and writes French in an as good and elegant way as the most highly educated French people do, but he still makes some mistakes when he speaks Kabyle with his family.
In fact, he is a "French native" and considers Kabyle, spoken by his parents in his infanthood and childhood, as his L2 (with a lot of deficiencies, he says)

Catherine


 
Catherine GUILLIAUMET
Catherine GUILLIAUMET  Identity Verified
Local time: 15:50
English to French
+ ...
In memoriam
@Nani Jul 15, 2012

Nani Delgado wrote:

Well, I was too slow, and in the meantime psicutrinius posted a similar answer than me. But we mean pretty much the same.


Yes, but what you explained is also very interesting.
And, by the way, I learnt that Basque (Euskera) is now an official language too.
That's good.
Catherine


 
Angie Garbarino
Angie Garbarino  Identity Verified
Local time: 15:50
Member (2003)
French to Italian
+ ...
Just out of pure curiosity @Nani and @Psicutrinius Jul 15, 2012

You know

Now that I live in the Balearic Islands and I can read Catalan in every official document, and listen to it in TV, I realized that it is very very very similar to the Lombard dialect, see for example "benissim, cognom" ... I found it strange but it's good for me so I understand

[Edited at 2012-07-15 11:54 GMT]


 
psicutrinius
psicutrinius  Identity Verified
Spain
Local time: 15:50
Member (2008)
Spanish to English
+ ...
@Catherine Jul 15, 2012

Yes, that's about my case (except that I was born long ago, too, but NOT that long, by far...;-)

I would also say that I found -about ten years ago; this may have changed, of course- that:

1) Street indicators in Algiers were BOTH in Arabic and in French. The name might have changed (for instance, from Boulevard Lyautey to Boulevard Amirouche), but they were bilingual nonetheless.
2) There are quite a number of people who speak very good French
3) I was asto
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Yes, that's about my case (except that I was born long ago, too, but NOT that long, by far...;-)

I would also say that I found -about ten years ago; this may have changed, of course- that:

1) Street indicators in Algiers were BOTH in Arabic and in French. The name might have changed (for instance, from Boulevard Lyautey to Boulevard Amirouche), but they were bilingual nonetheless.
2) There are quite a number of people who speak very good French
3) I was astonished to discover that the elites (and this includes some FLN (Government) people and their families and circle of acquaintances) speak French among themselves instead of Arabic. Even over the telephone they spoke French to, say, "ma fille" or "mon frère").

[Edited at 2012-07-15 13:26 GMT]

[Edited at 2012-07-15 13:29 GMT]
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Kirsten Bodart
Kirsten Bodart  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 15:50
Dutch to English
+ ...
The distinction between dialect and language is not that simple though Jul 15, 2012

The people of the area where we live in Germany (Rheinland-Pfalz) often laugh about Luxembourgish because it is essentially Mosel Fränkisch, which is also spoken in these parts. Only, it has an official spelling and grammar while the people where we live don't have it and write Hochdeutsch. Some of them speak it, others don't.

What psicutrinius illustrated is exactly the problem that crops up here. It is not because you were exposed to a lanuage that it is your L1.

Whe
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The people of the area where we live in Germany (Rheinland-Pfalz) often laugh about Luxembourgish because it is essentially Mosel Fränkisch, which is also spoken in these parts. Only, it has an official spelling and grammar while the people where we live don't have it and write Hochdeutsch. Some of them speak it, others don't.

What psicutrinius illustrated is exactly the problem that crops up here. It is not because you were exposed to a lanuage that it is your L1.

Where it is probably easier to argue that Basque and Catalan are different languages like Frisian and Welsh (they are either totally different from their official language [different group] or they are so far removed from it, that they are no longer understandable without some experience), some of these genuine languages do not gain language status because of political circumstances. Catalan has had to put up a long fight.
Some of the literature department at the university of Leuven argued that the main thing was to have reputable writers in history to argue over. If you had none (they claimed Frisian for example had none), you were lost as a language. I am not sure that is true, though.

Standard Italian is also an interesting topic in this respect. Who truly knows it? On the other hand, you don't see much writing in real dialect.

As to Dutch and Afrikaans. Afrikaans is understandable for Dutch speakers (on the radio interviews are conducted in Afrikaans without being doctored and books are sold in Afrikaans at the book fair in Antwerp), but I would not want to make an attempt at producing it. It has evolved straight from early modern Dutch that was around in the 17th century. (the language of Bredero, Vondel, Hooft, de Roovere).

Most modern Flemish people speak a kind of language between genuine dialect and standard Dutch (SN), I'll call it semi-dialect, but children learn to read and write in SN. So, weirdly, I refuse to give up my Flemish speech, but I write in a different language. That goes quite far as for example, the word for 'you' in SN is 'jij', but I say 'gij' (with all its different object and possessive attributes as well, something the Dutch only remember from the bible, it's probably similar in feel to 'thou'). I would rather die than write 'gij'. Similarly, 'book' in Flemish semi-dialect is male where in SN it is neutral. However, you'll hear children refer to book as 'he' when speaking, but they'll refer to it as 'it' when writing. It will not cross their minds that that is weird.

People in the West of Flanders speak dialects that are so antiquated (from Medieval Dutch, so older than Afrikaans) that some of its structure no longer exists in SN. To some people, they are not even understandable anymore. To some they are. Some children from these parts have difficulty learning to spell properly, because they have only spoken and heard dialect all their lives, apart from on TV.
Their national feel is so strong I believe they even have wikipedia pages on some topics.
Yet it is not a 'language'. They are still native speakers of Dutch. Although you could argue for language status, because Afrikaans has it as well (you would have to consult a real linguist-dialectologist on this though).

Those people are still deemed native speakers of Dutch, however.

In some parts of the world the disctinction between L1 and L2, dialects and languages is not so easy, that's why it was evidently brought up. This topic does not only concern English, right? Or am I being too optimistic here?
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Nani Delgado
Nani Delgado  Identity Verified
Spain
German to Spanish
. Jul 15, 2012

Catherine GUILLIAUMET wrote:

Yes, but what you explained is also very interesting.
And, by the way, I learnt that Basque (Euskera) is now an official language too.
That's good.
Catherine


I´m glad that you found my post interesting. By the way, Euskera has been an official language in Basque Country (Euskadi) for 30 years now.

Well, all this languages have a very long story, they are not just 30 years old. But Franco wanted to bann them completely and he indeed forbid their use. He burned lots of books, sadly Spain has lost a lot of cultural goods because of his dictatorship. Luckily people continued to use their language clandestinely at home.

Angie Garbarino wrote:
Just out of pure curiosity @Nani and @Psicutrinius

You know

Now that I live in the Balearic Islands and I can read Catalan in every official document, and listen to it in TV, I realized that it is very very very similar to the Lombard dialect, see for example "benissim, cognom" ... I found it strange but it's good for me so I understand

[Edited at 2012-07-15 11:54 GMT]


Angie: I am sorry but I didn´t understand your question, if that was any.


 
Kirsten Bodart
Kirsten Bodart  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 15:50
Dutch to English
+ ...
I expect that is the same all over Africa Jul 15, 2012

psicutrinius wrote:

Yes, that's about my case (except that I was born long ago, too, but NOT that long, by far...;-)

I would also say that I found -about ten years ago; this may have changed, of course- that:

1) Street indicators in Algiers were BOTH in Arabic and in French. The name might have changed (for instance, from Boulevard Lyautey to Boulevard Amirouche), but they were bilingual nonetheless.
2) There are quite a number of people who speak very good French
3) I was astonished to discover that the elites (and this includes some FLN (Government) people and their families and circle of acquaintances) speak French among themselves instead of Arabic. Even over the telephone they spoke French to, say, "ma fille" or "mon frère").

[Edited at 2012-07-15 13:26 GMT]

[Edited at 2012-07-15 13:29 GMT]


I expect street signs are probably still in two languages, but now maybe only to accomodate foreigners. Arabic being too difficult.

I also expect, from talking to a Congolese student of mine, that French is a kind of lingua franca. In Congo, there are a large amount of languages beside the four official ones. Swahili taking up the largest area. Dealing with so many different ones, though, you need one that everyone can speak. in this case it was French because of the colonists.
I would indeed not be surpised if the elite writes better French than their own language.


 
Ty Kendall
Ty Kendall  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 14:50
Hebrew to English
A language is a dialect with an army and a navy - Max Weinreich Jul 15, 2012

It should also be noted that the distinction between a language and dialect is rarely purely linguistic.

Many "languages" which are practically identical linguistically are only deemed separate languages and not dialects of one language because of socio-political reasons.

Just look at Hindi and Urdu, Croatian and Serbian (and Bosnian), ....once upon a time they were Hindustani and Serbo-Croat.

However, this argument shouldn't be used to argue that Geordie
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It should also be noted that the distinction between a language and dialect is rarely purely linguistic.

Many "languages" which are practically identical linguistically are only deemed separate languages and not dialects of one language because of socio-political reasons.

Just look at Hindi and Urdu, Croatian and Serbian (and Bosnian), ....once upon a time they were Hindustani and Serbo-Croat.

However, this argument shouldn't be used to argue that Geordie and Scouse are a different language to standardised English, as they are not.
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psicutrinius
psicutrinius  Identity Verified
Spain
Local time: 15:50
Member (2008)
Spanish to English
+ ...
Spain's languages Jul 15, 2012

@Nani, you are right. Franco played havoc here, for a number of years. But you will also agree that this hostility against anything non-Castilian is still with us, and has been from VERY long ago.

As Kirsten says, Catalan's has been (and remains) a long (defensive) fight.

But let me stop at this point. That would enter politics, and I am afraid this is the last thing anybody should do here.

As for the differences between Spain's Spanish and LA Spanish, ther
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@Nani, you are right. Franco played havoc here, for a number of years. But you will also agree that this hostility against anything non-Castilian is still with us, and has been from VERY long ago.

As Kirsten says, Catalan's has been (and remains) a long (defensive) fight.

But let me stop at this point. That would enter politics, and I am afraid this is the last thing anybody should do here.

As for the differences between Spain's Spanish and LA Spanish, there are some that I would say are "intrinsical" (by which I mean that the very same word has acquired a different meaning), like a famous one: "coger", which in Argentina means something very, very different, and which you'd better NOT use there, or "polla", which, in Chile, means "Lotería", and the plague of spanglish, where you find "pearls" like "espidómetro" (for "velocímetro"), or -to quote an EXTREME CASE- a forum where a poor soul was asking how to say in English "picha de propela". He meant "propeller pitch", actually, which translates in Spanish as "paso de hélice"...
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psicutrinius
psicutrinius  Identity Verified
Spain
Local time: 15:50
Member (2008)
Spanish to English
+ ...
Ty: Jul 15, 2012

That's new to me, but I would agree:

Only, I suspect Max Weinreich was writing before WW I. Otherwise he would have rendered the idea as A language is a dialect with an army and a navy and an air force

[Edited at 2012-07-15 15:50 GMT]


 
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Should “native language” claims be verified?






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