| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 90 91 92 93 94 95 96 97 98 99 100 101 102 103 104 105 106 107 108 109 110 111 112 113 114 115 116 117 118 119 120 121 122 123 124 125 126 127 128 129 130 131 132 133 134 135 136 137 138 139 140 141 142 143 144 145 146 147 148 149 150 151 152 153 154 155 156 157 158 159 160 161 162 163 164 165 166 167 168 169 170 171 172 173 174 175 176 177 178 179 180 181 182 183] > | Should “native language” claims be verified? Thread poster: XXXphxxx (X)
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psicutrinius 
Spain
Local time: 05:48
Member (2008)
Spanish to English
+ ...
| Even so, Ty... | Aug 28, 2012 |
...I remember bumping on some obscure so-called linguists (anglo, I mean, WASP, not hispanic) who was compiling a "Diccionario de Spanglish" (which is a lesser evil in that, to understand Spanglish you need to understand BOTH English and Spanish, not that Spanglish being a "synthesis" it facilitates things, but that you need to know both the components AND need a dictionary at least in some cases) in another forum (will not name it, or this post would disappear in five seconds flat).
... See more ...I remember bumping on some obscure so-called linguists (anglo, I mean, WASP, not hispanic) who was compiling a "Diccionario de Spanglish" (which is a lesser evil in that, to understand Spanglish you need to understand BOTH English and Spanish, not that Spanglish being a "synthesis" it facilitates things, but that you need to know both the components AND need a dictionary at least in some cases) in another forum (will not name it, or this post would disappear in five seconds flat).
He contended that this was the future and that both Spanish and English would disappear in the not-so-distant-run. In fact, he was conducting niche marketing and trying to carve his niche thus his modus vivendi, rather than doing anything useful... and since going against the tide pays off, that seemed a good idea to him.
I am an evil thinker and thus suspect this Brazilian eminence to be much a rather similar example. But I will obviously refrain from going ahead on this until I can judge OBJECTIVELY on the matter. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Oh, sure, my pleasure. Cleo Vilson Altenhofen | Aug 28, 2012 |
is one of the linguists who really believe that native language is a very vague, outdated term, which often become the source of various types of prejudice. There are many others, in fact.
| | | | Phil Hand
China
Local time: 11:48
Chinese to English
| Oops, overly credulous | Aug 28, 2012 |
@polyglot - thank you, I was being a bit incautious. I got the idea from the fact that Proz has a whole range of activities called "coop", and a cooperative is quite a possible form for a company like this. I just assumed they called it a coop because it is a coop. But apparently I was wrong.
@Lisa, I think the place for such a petition is right here, in this very forum. Just start a thread, ask everyone to post once and once only in the thread, and see how many votes we can get. It... See more @polyglot - thank you, I was being a bit incautious. I got the idea from the fact that Proz has a whole range of activities called "coop", and a cooperative is quite a possible form for a company like this. I just assumed they called it a coop because it is a coop. But apparently I was wrong.
@Lisa, I think the place for such a petition is right here, in this very forum. Just start a thread, ask everyone to post once and once only in the thread, and see how many votes we can get. It's not what the forums are made for, but it's better than nothing. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Ty Kendall
United Kingdom
Local time: 04:48
Hebrew to English
| As I suspected.........Wikipedia-inspired..... | Aug 28, 2012 |
LilianBoland wrote:
is one of the linguists who really believe that native language is a very vague, outdated term, which often become the source of various types of prejudice. There are many others, in fact.
A rather obscure university lecturer in Brazil. Not really a leading authority in the league of Chomsky and others. A quick Google search shows less that twelve thousand results too, so hardly a prolific author either.
The Brazilian linguist Cleo Altenhofen considers the denomination "mother tongue" in its general usage to be imprecise and subject to various interpretations that are biased linguistically, especially with respect to bilingual children from ethnic minority groups. He cites his own experience as a bilingual speaker of Portuguese and Riograndenser Hunsrückisch, a German-rooted language brought to southern Brazil by the first German immigrants. In his case, like that of many children whose home language differs from the language of the environment (the 'official' language), it is debatable which language is one's 'mother tongue'
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_language
...which - by the way - is itself lacking in any substantial citations or referencing for this paragraph.
So, this is a solitary (obscure) linguist challenging a well established term because it doesn't fit his personal circumstances and those of some "bilingual children from ethnic minority groups". You'll notice that he doesn't offer any other evidence or academic arguments for doing away with the term, other than the above (which is rather weak). He also seems to be referring to the term "mother tongue", not "native language" - although his arguments about imprecision and being open to various interpretations could also be applied to ALL other possible labels, including "first language" and "L1".
[Edited at 2012-08-28 14:26 GMT]
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XXXphxxx (X)
United Kingdom
Local time: 04:48
Portuguese to English
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TOPIC STARTER | Can you point out where exactly? | Aug 28, 2012 |
LilianBoland wrote:
is one of the linguists who really believe that native language is a very vague, outdated term, which often become the source of various types of prejudice. There are many others, in fact.
http://www.ibero-americana.net/files/ejemplo_por.pdf
Who are the "many others"?
| | | | XXXphxxx (X)
United Kingdom
Local time: 04:48
Portuguese to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Phil Hand wrote:
@Lisa, I think the place for such a petition is right here, in this very forum. Just start a thread, ask everyone to post once and once only in the thread, and see how many votes we can get. It's not what the forums are made for, but it's better than nothing.
I think we've seen that people cannot moderate themselves and there's always some idiot who just has to keep droning on about an utter irrelevance and cannot understand how stupid it makes them look. There have already been one or two off-shoots of this thread that haven't got anywhere for this reason.
| | | | Phil Hand
China
Local time: 11:48
Chinese to English
| Wikipedia inspired and not even true..? | Aug 28, 2012 |
I've just run this: http://www.martiusstaden.org.br/files/MSJ/MSJ49.pdf#page=139
through Google translate.
Says at the top: "This is the author’s final statement."
And the conclusion says:
"A solução encontrada neste estudo foi descrever língua materna como um conceito dinâmico que varia conforme um conjunto de traços relevantes que... See more I've just run this: http://www.martiusstaden.org.br/files/MSJ/MSJ49.pdf#page=139
through Google translate.
Says at the top: "This is the author’s final statement."
And the conclusion says:
"A solução encontrada neste estudo foi descrever língua materna como um conceito dinâmico que varia conforme um conjunto de traços relevantes que engloba, em uma situação normal, válida para um determinado momento da vida do falante, a) a primeira língua aprendida pelo falante, b) em alguns casos, simultaneamente com outra língua, com a qual c) compartilha usos e funções específicas, e) apresentando-se porém geralmente como língua dominante, f) fortemente identificada com a língua da mãe e do pai, e, por isso, d) provida de um valor afetivo próprio. Em relação ao bilingüismo precoce e simultâneo, é pertinente admitir a possibilidade de falantes com duas línguas maternas, contendo os traços mencionados acima."
My understanding from what Google spits out is:
Native language should be understood as a multi-dimensional construct.
I don't think anyone here disputes that. It does not imply that it's not usable in the translation world. Lisa, you should be able to give a more nuanced reading.
Ty, if the translation doesn't work out for you, you should be a zookeeper. Excellent skills in feeding dangerous animals. Check your inbox, too. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Ty Kendall
United Kingdom
Local time: 04:48
Hebrew to English
| Gorging the animals | Aug 28, 2012 |
Phil Hand wrote:
Ty, if the translation doesn't work out for you, you should be a zookeeper. Excellent skills in feeding dangerous animals. Check your inbox, too.
LOL, well starving it didn't work, maybe if I gorge it then that will do the trick! ...or maybe not..checking inbox now mate.
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XXXphxxx (X)
United Kingdom
Local time: 04:48
Portuguese to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Your summary is about right Phil. Am swamped at the moment so have only skimmed the paper. Essentially his argument is that focusing on the term "mother tongue" discounts the (as we know) ample possibilities for bilingualism. It's not rocket science, it's nothing that we don't already know and certainly not something any of us have argued against. What he certainly is NOT saying (from what I've seen) is that a native language does not exist, nor that it's a "vague, outdated term". Nor does he sa... See more Your summary is about right Phil. Am swamped at the moment so have only skimmed the paper. Essentially his argument is that focusing on the term "mother tongue" discounts the (as we know) ample possibilities for bilingualism. It's not rocket science, it's nothing that we don't already know and certainly not something any of us have argued against. What he certainly is NOT saying (from what I've seen) is that a native language does not exist, nor that it's a "vague, outdated term". Nor does he say that a native language is one that people can acquire later in life and then speak and write it in a version that no other native speakers of that language would recognise as being their language. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | survey using google forms | Aug 28, 2012 |
You could do a survey/poll using google documents/forms and just post the link to it in this forum.
It's very easy/fast to set up.
Lisa Simpson, MCIL wrote: Phil Hand wrote:
@Lisa, I think the place for such a petition is right here, in this very forum. Just start a thread, ask everyone to post once and once only in the thread, and see how many votes we can get. It's not what the forums are made for, but it's better than nothing. I think we've seen that people cannot moderate themselves and there's always some idiot who just has to keep droning on about an utter irrelevance and cannot understand how stupid it makes them look. There have already been one or two off-shoots of this thread that haven't got anywhere for this reason.
| | | | | He basically dismisses the idea of a native language as any credible criterium other | Aug 28, 2012 |
than something on the more sentimental side. No, it is not just Wikipedia inspired -- he is quite well know. Unfortunately many of his very interesting articles are in Portuguese, so you may find out more, Lisa, on your own. There are many other linguists who are leaning towards his theory. As for Chomsky -- he basically thought that native language was an idea, more than anything else. An ideal native speaker would have to come from parents who spoke exactly the same language, and the child was... See more than something on the more sentimental side. No, it is not just Wikipedia inspired -- he is quite well know. Unfortunately many of his very interesting articles are in Portuguese, so you may find out more, Lisa, on your own. There are many other linguists who are leaning towards his theory. As for Chomsky -- he basically thought that native language was an idea, more than anything else. An ideal native speaker would have to come from parents who spoke exactly the same language, and the child was growing up in a hermetic society -- without any other external influences. He even conducted some studies on some isolated groups of that kind, which are really rare. ▲ Collapse
| | | | psicutrinius
Spain
Local time: 05:48
Member (2008)
Spanish to English
+ ...
| Well, Lilian: Proof required - or bluff called | Aug 28, 2012 |
LilianBoland wrote:
is one of the linguists who really believe that native language is a very vague, outdated term, which often become the source of various types of prejudice. There are many others, in fact.[emphasis is mine]
Who are those?. Might be that the "topic body" section here is not big enough to contain them all, but you can give it a try. In fact, if you reach a figure of 50, or higher, there will be no need for more, so please fill in for everyone:
Name:
Credentials:
CV location (in the web):
How can s/he be reached (just for checking, and maybe for giving him/her a chance to convince us that we are wrong, thus to let us get converted away from the "N" word)
Relevant (to the thread) works: Title, date of publication, where to find it.
Since there are so many, I do not think this to be too long a task.
If you cannot produce such evidence for everyone, then please
STOP AT LAST SPREADING SUPPOSED SCIENTIFIC BACKING THAT YOU CANNOT PRESENT PROOF OF
Additional note:
You have said earlier on (have no time to search the entire thread to extract the verbatim copy among your earlier posts) that Chomsky is also on this league. Needless to say, the unambiguous evidence of such fact? is also necessary
[Edited at 2012-08-28 18:39 GMT]
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XXXphxxx (X)
United Kingdom
Local time: 04:48
Portuguese to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
sibsab wrote:
You could do a survey/poll using google documents/forms and just post the link to it in this forum.
It's very easy/fast to set up.
I really don't own this thread so if there are any volunteers with a touch more time on their hands at the moment then I vote we agree on the wording (along the lines of getting the site to give us a date by which they are going implement their own rule) and get this poll on the road
| | | | XXXphxxx (X)
United Kingdom
Local time: 04:48
Portuguese to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Jenny Forbes wrote:
I think a petition from Proz members is a good idea, but not via Facebook because by no means everyone uses Facebook.
As a first move, why not send Proz a support request asking what would be the best way for its members to present it with a petition? At least we'd be seen as trying to work *with* Proz rather than perhaps seeming hostile.
I've called a moderator to the thread so we can get an answer on this and all hear the same thing
| | | | Oliver Walter
United Kingdom
Local time: 04:48
German to English
+ ...
| The insignificance of native language ?!! | Aug 29, 2012 |
Balasubramaniam L. wrote:
The first thing that we will need to concede is that nativeness in a language has very little to do with translation quality or proficiency.
He wrote it nearly 2 weeks ago (17 August, page 102), and I am surprised that nobody has challenged it. In my view, and that of lots of teachers and practitioners of translation, one's native language has a great deal to do with translation quality. I'm referring, of course, to those who say you should only translate into your native language. Yes, there are some people who can produce good translations from their native language into another one, and there are some cases where it is difficult to define a person's native language. That does not invalidate the general rule: translate into, not out of your native language because that is an important factor in producing a translation that reads like an original.
Oliver
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