| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 90 91 92 93 94 95 96 97 98 99 100 101 102 103 104 105 106 107 108 109 110 111 112 113 114 115 116 117 118 119 120 121 122 123 124 125 126 127 128 129 130 131 132 133 134 135 136 137 138 139 140 141 142 143 144 145 146 147 148 149 150 151 152 153 154 155 156 157 158 159 160 161 162 163 164 165 166 167 168 169 170 171 172 173 174 175 176 177 178 179 180 181 182 183] > | Should “native language” claims be verified? Thread poster: XXXphxxx (X)
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| I don't know, Inkweaver, if you feel you can translate really well | Aug 1, 2012 |
into German, you have lived in a German-speaking country for most of your life, or you speak it at home living in another country, you read a lot of papers and books in German, watch TV in German, and your clients have no complaints, you can translate into that language, for sure. There many people, however, who just learned their L1, left the country at the age of ten, let's say. Most of their education is in another language, and they think they are capable of translating dissertations and med... See more into German, you have lived in a German-speaking country for most of your life, or you speak it at home living in another country, you read a lot of papers and books in German, watch TV in German, and your clients have no complaints, you can translate into that language, for sure. There many people, however, who just learned their L1, left the country at the age of ten, let's say. Most of their education is in another language, and they think they are capable of translating dissertations and medical trial materials into their L1. This is absurd. I don't have any particular person in mind, but there are many people like that. They may still have a native accent, but they are definitely not able to translate anything serious into their L1, I can assure you of that. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Michele Fauble 
United States
Local time: 05:35
Member (2006)
Norwegian to English
+ ...
LilianBoland wrote:
Native language has many definitions -- it is first of all the language you identify with, and secondly it could be your ethnic language, not necessarily the best language.
It is very clear that you are trying to redefine native language in a way that allows you to truthfully claim to be a native English speaker. As Cilian said, your English is excellent, but your non-native errors, as few as they may be, clearly show that you are not a native English speaker.
In any case, for the purposes of translation, the language you subjectively feel comfortable with, identify with, have an ethnic connection with, etc., is irrelevant. If the client wants a native target language translator, it is because the client wants to be sure that the translation reads like a document written by a native speaker, i.e. no non-native errors or phrasing.
| | | | Sheila Wilson
Spain
Local time: 13:35
Member (2007)
English
+ ...
| Maybe that's why so many people declare English | Aug 1, 2012 |
inkweaver wrote:
Since my tertiary education was not in German but in English, I assume I should stop translating immediately. Or could I claim English as my native language from now on?
Universities the world over are switching to English as the instructional language, so all graduates will be native speakers before long!
| | | | Sheila Wilson
Spain
Local time: 13:35
Member (2007)
English
+ ...
| Yes, Lilian - that is what I think | Aug 1, 2012 |
LilianBoland wrote:
I just meant for the purposes of translation. Can you teach, if you have not completed certain programs?Is that your claim, Sheila, that a person without university education can be a good translator? Perhaps in the old times, when some people had just high school education
Well, that's exactly what I had in the 60s and 70s. I am pretty old, after all!
in 1920s, as an example, where they were required to study two or three languages thoroughly
Really? I had no idea. No sarcasm intended - I really don't know. But my parents started school in 1920 and while my father studied 8 languages (including African ones) through his very upper-class education, my mum learnt the three Rs, coming from the other end of the social ladder.
There might be exceptions, Sheila, especially in the case of people who did not get a chance to get college education due to some personal problems, or wars, and they had really good high school education, some courses -- they have studied a lot on their own and had a lot of experience, but such people would be very rare, really more like one person in 100,000.
Does that make me a charitable cause? Or a genius? Or perhaps just a total fraud?
I am just convinced, Sheila, you might be one of the exceptions.
You are so kind, Lilian
Sheila
[Edited at 2012-08-01 11:07 GMT] [/quote]
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| You just don't understand the concept of nativeness, and any emotional connotations of that word. | Aug 1, 2012 |
All you have been carrying about is business, and who would seal your clients. I said I could put down Klingon as my native language -- but you just simply don't understand why some people declare one language and not another as their native. Native speakers make many so-called no-native mistakes, if there is anything like that at all. I have never come across anything even close to that statement in any serious linguistic sources. Both native and no-native speakers make errors and performance m... See more All you have been carrying about is business, and who would seal your clients. I said I could put down Klingon as my native language -- but you just simply don't understand why some people declare one language and not another as their native. Native speakers make many so-called no-native mistakes, if there is anything like that at all. I have never come across anything even close to that statement in any serious linguistic sources. Both native and no-native speakers make errors and performance mistakes -- both groups. Someone here was even trying to twist linguistic theories to convince people that native speakers did not make errors, which is absolutely not true. I may make no-native mistakes once in a a blue moon, as I do in English, when I am in a hurry or reading translation texts in another language, in all the other language I speak as well, and so do all bilingual or multilingual people. 100% pure native language would be only the native language of a member of a completely secluded community who had no contact with the outside world. Chomsky in fact studied such groups. Such a person might not make any so called, non-native mistakes. To Michele, the first part.
To Sheila: there was no sarcasm in my post, I am sorry. I absolutely do not think you are old or anything like that. I meant my grandparents. One of them was quite a learned man and he only had a sort of very good hight school - Gymnasium. I was in a hurry. The post is really not that well organized.
As regards English as a native language, yes, soon many young people will claim it as their native a language, especially that many, in Europe, speak it better than their mother tongue, or L1. This is natural. This is what happens when one language takes over the world.
[Edited at 2012-08-01 17:40 GMT]
[Edited at 2012-08-01 17:44 GMT]
[Edited at 2012-08-01 17:45 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | inkweaver
Germany
Local time: 14:35
French to German
+ ...
Sheila Wilson wrote: inkweaver wrote:
Since my tertiary education was not in German but in English, I assume I should stop translating immediately. Or could I claim English as my native language from now on? Universities the world over are switching to English as the instructional language, so all graduates will be native speakers before long!
But I even lived in the country for four years. That should be enough to make me a native speaker, shouldn't it?
| | | | | Hi, Inkweaver. | Aug 1, 2012 |
The problem is that many of the very young people in most European countries watch almost all TV in English, read books, if any in English, or cartoons at least, listen to English music. It is just cool to speak English. Then they go to study at a UK university for four of five years, and all they can do in their L1 is perhaps just write a letter to their mother -- that's about it. Maybe people should not declare any languages as native, if their linguistic history is more complicated and just... See more The problem is that many of the very young people in most European countries watch almost all TV in English, read books, if any in English, or cartoons at least, listen to English music. It is just cool to speak English. Then they go to study at a UK university for four of five years, and all they can do in their L1 is perhaps just write a letter to their mother -- that's about it. Maybe people should not declare any languages as native, if their linguistic history is more complicated and just briefly describe it, in fact. My L1 is, I have moved away from the country where it was spoken at the age of X, my higher education is in Y. I have been living in a country where Y is spoken for X years. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Ty Kendall
United Kingdom
Local time: 13:35
Hebrew to English
| It's logic Jim, but not as we know it | Aug 1, 2012 |
LilianBoland wrote:
My English level is very good
I never said it wasn't. Hats off to you, you've reached a level of English that 99% of Poles never even hope to attain.
I agree that you may find some structures that are a result of language interference
That's because, by most definitions - other than your own - you aren't a native English speaker [this is not to detract from the aforementioned, naturally].
but even within the Unites States, the language varies to a significant extent
True, but this doesn't alter the fact that non-native English is non-native English.
the language acquired within the first three years of one's life
So now it's three?
The term native language is loaded with ethnicity issues.
No, it isn't. Post-colonialism, mass-migration and globalisation really muddy the waters here. There's no longer a definite and direct correlation between language and ethnicity (not that I'm convinced there ever was).
Redefinition
I might decide to rob a bank. I might try to convince you that I'm not really stealing the money, but liberating it from the vaults. Of course this would be nonsense - it's still stealing, regardless of how I try to redefine a term for my own benefit.
[Edited at 2012-08-01 18:17 GMT]
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Michele Fauble
United States
Local time: 05:35
Member (2006)
Norwegian to English
+ ...
| End of discussion | Aug 1, 2012 |
LilianBoland wrote:
To Michele, the first part.
Lilian, the medication won't work if you don't take it!
Seriously though, there are so many misunderstandings about linguistics in your posts that further discussion is pointless.
| | | | Ty Kendall
United Kingdom
Local time: 13:35
Hebrew to English
| After 3 edits..... | Aug 1, 2012 |
LilianBoland wrote:
All you have been carrying about is business, and who would seal your clients.... I may make no-native mistakes once in a a blue moon, as I do in English,
[Edited at 2012-08-01 17:40 GMT]
[Edited at 2012-08-01 17:44 GMT]
[Edited at 2012-08-01 17:45 GMT]
I've often had clients who I wanted to seal, but I felt it was cruel to the seals.
I think your definition of "once in a blue moon" might also differ from the mainstream as well as your definition of "native language".
Let me put it this way: if I wanted to convince people I was a chicken, it wouldn't do me any favours to go round barking like a dog.
| | | | | I don't know if many German, Poles, Lithuanians, and Klingon speakers can attain my level of Englisr | Aug 1, 2012 |
What do you need the native language category then for at all? Just to check what? How is it related to translation? My carpenters speaks perfect Brooklyn English, but I doubt you would like him to translate anything into it, other than a part of dialogue for a novel located in his area,with some special effects. I can really put Klingon, or no native language declared-- I don't care, really I absolutely don't care what I put in my profile on this site. I am just writing here out of principle. ... See more What do you need the native language category then for at all? Just to check what? How is it related to translation? My carpenters speaks perfect Brooklyn English, but I doubt you would like him to translate anything into it, other than a part of dialogue for a novel located in his area,with some special effects. I can really put Klingon, or no native language declared-- I don't care, really I absolutely don't care what I put in my profile on this site. I am just writing here out of principle. My father moved to liv in Poland at the age of 28 and he never spoke very good Polish. He was a native speaker of Lithuanian and Russian. This regardless of the fact than most people in Lithuania in his circles spoke Polish as well, because it was the language of the ruling classes for years. So it really depends on the person. Not everybody that moves to another country could claim the language where they live as their native, especially if they don't want to. At those times people would simply ask him which art of Russia he came from, just by his accent when he spoke Polish. He lived in many countries later on, so he did not really get to speak Polish that much, although it was pretty good, not native though. My mothers parents did not speak Polish at all. She did because she grew up in communist Poland, where one language was taught in schools, and it was the language of instruction and she spoke it at an absolutely native level, although she started speaking it at the age of six. She almost did not speak her L1 later on, even my German is better than my mother's. So this is really the proof that you can almost completely forget your L1 even at an older age like 6 or 8, if you don't use it. What is the native language of various immigrant children who come to the UK at an early age or even children born there to non-English speaking parents?
I don't even know where you live, Michele, and why are you claiming your native language to be English? It is good, but many Scandinavians would be able to write this way. Isn't it hard to translate form three very close languages. Even most of my Swedish friends say they don't understand spoken Norwegian that well. I don't see any evidence that you have any kind of linguistic education or more thorough type of knowledge, just by looking at your profile. I could never translate form Polish, Czech and Slovak, although I understand about 80% of the text written in those languages.
I see, Ty you have nothing to do now, so you have been looking for typos. I love seals, but I really mean steal. A typo-free text does not mean you are a perfect, native-speaker of your target language, but rather that you have a great spell checking program and a lot of time to read your post five times.
I will ask my friend from the Bronx, he is a part-time plumber, a rapper and an experimental movie producer -- he has college education and was born here, if he recognizes your writings, any of the people who claim to be natives of English, as native. If I tell him native, he might think Native American, though. This is the first thing that comes to mind when you here native. I don't even know how to explain it to him -- what it is supposed to mean to an American guy -- perhaps the language spoken in his yard, school or band.
You may take most people from out of town for dogs, Ty. This is my feeling.
[Edited at 2012-08-01 19:10 GMT]
[Edited at 2012-08-01 19:13 GMT]
[Edited at 2012-08-01 19:40 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | | how do you speak English? | Aug 1, 2012 |
LilianBoland wrote:
It would be unpatriotic not to claim the language of the county where you have been living for most of your life, the language you have virtually all your higher education in, and the only language you have ever used in any type of work, other than translation or interpreting
Hi Lilian,
The problem here lies with "virtually all your higher education" That tells me you're talking about a later stage in life.
There is nothing wrong with being proud of speaking a language very well. If English is the language you speak now and have spoken for a long time, it might even be the language you speak "best". Still, that doesn't necessarily make you a native English speaker.
LilianBoland wrote:
Don't call the language you have in mind a native language -- call it L1 - the language someone learned within the first two years of one's life.
... I don't think a person who has no college education in their L1 can translate into L1. Many children born here, who are teenagers, whose parents speak a different language at home have more borrowed constructions from another language or improperly used words than I do .....
What you mean here is that someone who, for example, left Poland at the age of 2 or 3 or 6, together with their parents, and went to the US and only used US English in school and with everybody else, except with her/his parents, would not be able to become a good English>Polish translator, especially because the parents' Polish is getting worse over the years as well?
Well, yes, if the person lacks the fundamental proficiency in Polish which, as most here will argue, comes with being a native speaker of Polish. And if the child only sporadically spoke Polish and was schooled in English and gave up speaking and/or writing Polish altogether, she/he will probably not be a good translator in either language direction. But she/he could become a great Polish>English translator if she/he and the parents keep up their Polish at home and/or if she/he later studies/uses it again.
The problem is that the majority of colleagues here have a different understanding of what constitutes a native language than you do.
So let's look at your definition(s):
LilianBoland wrote:
Native language has many definitions -- it is first of all the language you identify with, and secondly it could be your ethnic language, not necessarily the best language. So I think, you really have to use a different name for the language you have in mind.
Your definition:
a) "The language you identify with."
With respect to what? Because it is the language you speak now, where you live, and where you work, and because it is the main language there, and that would be English as in the US? Because of residence or citizenship status? Because you are proud to speak it well?
>> You can identify with it for all these reasons but it won't make it your native language (not in the sense many here want it to be understood, and quite frankly, in the sense it should be understood).*
Your definition:
b) "It could be your ethnic language, not necessarily the best language (you speak)?"
Because it is the language of your parents or of a particular ethnic group you consider yourself a part of?
>> You can identify with it for all these reasons but it won't make it your native language.*
*What do many here consider as one's native language?
I believe many will agree, it is the language they speak in a way that could only be acquired if they were, from an early age on, immersed in a particular language and culture (let's call it language A and culture AA), grew up and were schooled in A in AA and ...
(verifying)
... are able to therefore speak A in such a way that members of culture AA who also grew up and have always lived in AA and went through the same lingual and cultural development as described above will recognize them and confirm them to be, in speech and writing, as true members of language group A.
Or in short: they speak and write A the same "idiomatic" way the vast majority of culture AA speaks and writes it.
If you follow this definition you will agree: someone teaching at a University in the United States is not necessarily a native speaker of US English.
Whoever uses English as her/his main language is not necessarily a native speaker of English.
At the same time, a child who was born and continues to live in the US as daughter/son of Polish immigrants is more likely to become a native "English" speaker if Polish is used only very early on and only in the home. Schooling and social interaction will be the main factors contributing to the acquisition of English as the only native language.
Granted, there can be exceptions if a child grows up truly speaking two or even more languages "equally", but the social and educational environment will act as a very strong delimitating factor.
LilianBoland wrote:
How would you classify such children, born in the US: as native speakers of other language? Many teachers in US -- high schools, even English teachers, and college professors were not born in English speaking countries. So, you would really have to call the language you are interested in something else, most likely L1. This language might be of interest, if you were looking for voiceover artists, because it is really true that the earlier you learn the language, the better the accent. How many L1 speakers who have lived for most of their lives in the country where L1 is spoken, know really some very difficult languages as well as the people who have been exposed to many languages. Not too many I think. I don't believe that a person who had such difficult language as Russian or Chinese for four years in college would be able to translate from them, anything other than a birth certificate or a letter, perhaps some very general texts.
You can be "interested" in someone's language skills for many reasons. And that person might call the languages they speak L1, L2, L3, L4, ......, and L1 might be the "best" language they speak or the "main" language they speak, but it could also be defined as the language they spoke "from age 2 to age 4" but none of these so defined languages are necessarily their "native" languages.
What we're trying to do here (among other things) is to share our understanding of what native language is. And although having a native language usually means you have acquired a vast amount of vocabulary and speak and write it at a relatively "educated level", it's more about "how" you speak and write it (how you put your words together, which mistakes you tend to make and what idiomatic phrases you use) than it is about "how well" you speak and write it (meaning how much vocabulary you use and how complex your grammar is - which is something a non-native speaker can learn - although usually in a particular area or subject field and not as far as the myriads of words are concerned that a non-native speaker will never have heard because she/he didn't grow up with that language).
The difference between a native speaker of a language (average education or advanced education) and a non-native speaker is that either of the native speakers will usually know right away that the non-native speaker is indeed a non-native speaker. It's about "how" the non-native speaker sounds and writes, how he/she puts even complex sentences together and which mistakes he/she makes. Some non-natives are of course better than others, but they can't reach the level of a native in the "how" department. That makes lying about it especially bad when the non-native only has a basic knowledge of that language.
Now, many will argue that the "how well you speak a language" is a very important factor when it comes to being a translator or choosing a translator, and that's correct. And if someone is a "native" speaker of a language, it can be a strong indicator for his/her "idiomatically correct" use of that language which is highly important if you want to reach the culture that speaks that language.
But the problem we're having is that there are users/members who claim and list languages on Proz.com as their native languages, thus implying an excellent proficiency in that language when they clearly (clear to "any" true native speaker) have not even an acceptable grasp of that language. That's what's not acceptable. It ruins the reputation of the site, it takes jobs away, it creates disappointment, possible financial loss and insecurity for clients, etc. etc., but overall, it's simply bad for (our) business.
If you tick the native language box you need to be honest and you need to know what it means to be a "native speaker" of a language. There's is no excuse not to know it. Verification will take care of false claims.
Is anyone going to start paying me for posting comments? :0)
B
[Edited at 2012-08-02 09:31 GMT]
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| Hi, Bernhard. | Aug 1, 2012 |
A person who left the country where they learned their L1 at the age of 3 would most likely, in at least 99% of cases, not be considered a native speaker of his or her L1, unless the parents really cared, spoke only that language to the child, send her to schools in that language as well, but even then, I doubt the child would be recognized later in her life as a native speaker of her L1.. I know a lot of children like that from Poland and Russia, some of whom came here even later than at 3 year... See more A person who left the country where they learned their L1 at the age of 3 would most likely, in at least 99% of cases, not be considered a native speaker of his or her L1, unless the parents really cared, spoke only that language to the child, send her to schools in that language as well, but even then, I doubt the child would be recognized later in her life as a native speaker of her L1.. I know a lot of children like that from Poland and Russia, some of whom came here even later than at 3 years of age -- at the age of 8 or 10, and they cannot be considered native speakers of Polish or Russian, especially for translation purposes. Perhaps just for some sociolinguistic studies on language attrition.
No, I don't think you can really use the term native language for multilingual people, especially,who have lived in different countries. This is too narrow categorization. It would be very simplistic to put people who were born in Germany and have lived there for most of their lives with people born of German parents somewhere,, sorry for using your language or country as an example. L1, L2 as the language of habitual use are much better here.
[Edited at 2012-08-01 20:19 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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Michele Fauble wrote: LilianBoland wrote:
Native language [ ... ]
It is very clear that you are trying to redefine native language in a way that allows you to truthfully claim to be a native English speaker. As Cilian said, your English is excellent, but your non-native errors, as few as they may be, clearly show that you are not a native English speaker.
| | | | | I am not trying to redefine anything -- it has been redefined many years ago | Aug 1, 2012 |
some of you just go by dictionaries, instead of linguistic research. I am just trying to open your eyes to the complexity of the problem. I have absolutely no interest in ti. I don't even bid on jobs. The clients require a more detailed information about the person than their language declared before they assign the job to them, anyhow.
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