| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 90 91 92 93 94 95 96 97 98 99 100 101 102 103 104 105 106 107 108 109 110 111 112 113 114 115 116 117 118 119 120 121 122 123 124 125 126 127 128 129 130 131 132 133 134 135 136 137 138 139 140 141 142 143 144 145 146 147 148 149 150 151 152 153 154 155 156 157 158 159 160 161 162 163 164 165 166 167 168 169 170 171 172 173 174 175 176 177 178 179 180 181 182 183] > | Should “native language” claims be verified? Thread poster: XXXphxxx (X)
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| Maybe you should abandon the native language term altogether | Jul 30, 2012 |
The term should not be abused for professional and money related reasons. It is a an emotionally loaded term -- I personally believe there are very few liars here -- mostly people with a different concept of a native language. For Tolkien it was Middle English.
I think L1 should be used as the language learned from one's mother, within the first year. Then there should be a question about someone's language of habitual use -- if it is different than L1,
or a language the perso... See more The term should not be abused for professional and money related reasons. It is a an emotionally loaded term -- I personally believe there are very few liars here -- mostly people with a different concept of a native language. For Tolkien it was Middle English.
I think L1 should be used as the language learned from one's mother, within the first year. Then there should be a question about someone's language of habitual use -- if it is different than L1,
or a language the person is most comfortable with, or the best language in writing or in speech. This has to correspond to the place where the person lives. Native language is too vague a term.
People should be also allowed not to declare a native language, if they don't want to. ▲ Collapse
| | | | XXXphxxx (X) 
United Kingdom
Local time: 14:59
Portuguese to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | Native speakers and native proficiency | Jul 30, 2012 |
Hi Bernhard,
I've been away for a few days but I have still been trying to follow the thread. I've also adopted a policy of skipping joyfully over any posts from trolls.
A lot of good suggestions have come forth on methods of verification. In my view, an oral test is the only one that will truly separate native and non-native speakers - it'll immediately flush out the Chinese and Dutch "English native speakers", who form the bulk of the problem. A written test will sepa... See more Hi Bernhard,
I've been away for a few days but I have still been trying to follow the thread. I've also adopted a policy of skipping joyfully over any posts from trolls.
A lot of good suggestions have come forth on methods of verification. In my view, an oral test is the only one that will truly separate native and non-native speakers - it'll immediately flush out the Chinese and Dutch "English native speakers", who form the bulk of the problem. A written test will separate native and non-native proficiency. Each tests two quite different things. For the sake of argument I would back either. As I've said all along, I favour almost anything that improves the status quo.
[Edited at 2012-07-30 15:50 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Do you think someone with a perfect accent will improve the | Jul 30, 2012 |
quality of legal translation, let's say. I have almost perfect accent in German, just don't ask me to translate anything into that language, and in some other languages I hardly speak. Who would be dong the checking?
| | | | Ty Kendall
United Kingdom
Local time: 14:59
Hebrew to English
| @Liliana Boladz-Nekipelov | Jul 30, 2012 |
LilianBoland wrote:
What are you so happy about?
My emotional state is irrelevant.
Are happy now?[sic]
I was never unhappy.
a great Black guy from the Bronx
I'm not sure why the word "black" was necessary.
an average English-speaking person...would not be able to easily understand Shakespeare in the original form
Simply not true. Shakespeare is very accessible. Maybe you're thinking Beowulf.
This is not just my opinion, by an opinion expressed by a friend of mine who is an English teacher in England.
That's because very few English teenagers have a great desire to read Shakespeare, not because they can't understand it but because it doesn't interest them or seem relevant to them. There are far more contemporary and popular things for them to want to read like "Twilight" or "50 shades of rubbish" ....it's hardly surprising they have no great enthusiasm for Macbeth or Othello.
I had to read: A Midsummer Night's Dream, Romeo and Juliet and The Taming of the Shrew at 13+, I had no trouble whatsoever, nor did anyone else in my class, nor does anyone else who is an English native speaker. It's simply not difficult at all, even for teenagers.
not counting the few moth periods in my childhood, and early teenage years
By your own admission, your formative years were spent in Poland! Your primary, secondary and tertiary education (at least part of your tertiary) were in Poland. Your claim to nativeness becomes ever more tenuous.....
For Tolkien it was Middle English.
Erm, what? I don't think Tolkien considered Middle English his native language. He surely had an interest in older forms of English, but since he was born in 1892 - well within the era of Modern English, I seriously doubt he considered Middle English being his native language i.e. I highly doubt his mother and father (not being academics) knew much if anything of it, much less raised him with it.
[Edited at 2012-07-30 18:40 GMT]
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Marina Steinbach
United States
Local time: 09:59
Member (2011)
English to German
| Members with 2 verified native languages exist. | Jul 30, 2012 |
Angie Garbarino wrote:
I'd be glad to be verified, as in fact I am not, (see my 2 languages in grey)
Members with 2 verified native languages exist.
Look e.g. here: http://www.proz.com/translator/1118644
Alexandra Villeminey ist native in Spanish and German (both languages are in orange).
How did she manage to do that?
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Accents could indeed be a problem. I'd want the person doing the oral test of my nativeness to take a couple of things into account. My native language is English and it is the only language I can write into with native proficiency. However, I don't get to practice speaking English much and so my speech is a bit rusty (possibly a Dutch lilt, some word finding problems at speaking speed). On the other hand, Dutch, which I did not learn to speak until I was 18, and so in no way can claim native pr... See more Accents could indeed be a problem. I'd want the person doing the oral test of my nativeness to take a couple of things into account. My native language is English and it is the only language I can write into with native proficiency. However, I don't get to practice speaking English much and so my speech is a bit rusty (possibly a Dutch lilt, some word finding problems at speaking speed). On the other hand, Dutch, which I did not learn to speak until I was 18, and so in no way can claim native proficiency in, is my everyday language, and it usually takes the average Dutch person at least ten minutes or so of conversation before they tentatively ask where I'm from, if at all. So, assuming my English writing hasn't become rusty, and my claim to nativeness is legitimate, I could get kicked out of the native club anyway for having the wrong accent and not being able to find the right vo... voc... words. And I might well pass the Dutch nativeness test while I'm far from it.
[Edited at 2012-07-30 18:36 GMT]
[Edited at 2012-07-30 18:36 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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I don't really think oral exams would be a good idea for everyone. Some people are very shy or have a stammering problem. In my case, my native language is English, but I spend a good portion of my day speaking Arabic, and it takes a lot of concentration not to pepper my English with Arabic words and phrases. As translators, a lot of us live in different countries and may momentarily forget a word or two in our native languages while speaking. I have even met Americans who start speaking with a ... See more I don't really think oral exams would be a good idea for everyone. Some people are very shy or have a stammering problem. In my case, my native language is English, but I spend a good portion of my day speaking Arabic, and it takes a lot of concentration not to pepper my English with Arabic words and phrases. As translators, a lot of us live in different countries and may momentarily forget a word or two in our native languages while speaking. I have even met Americans who start speaking with a foreign accent after living in a different country for a while. I wouldn't want to see someone "fail" a native-language test just because they fall into one of the above categories. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | My formative years were spent not only in Poland, but other | Jul 30, 2012 |
places as well. My mother spoke Polish mostly, sometimes Russian. My father spoke mostly Lithuanian, especially to me and my to grandfather who spoke mostly Lithuanian; my mother's mother spoke German and Polish mixed with German, and her father spoke also quite good English among other language. He lived in England for about 15 years.
Yes, English is my native language, by the definition of a native language which includes the language of habitual use and the language you are... See more places as well. My mother spoke Polish mostly, sometimes Russian. My father spoke mostly Lithuanian, especially to me and my to grandfather who spoke mostly Lithuanian; my mother's mother spoke German and Polish mixed with German, and her father spoke also quite good English among other language. He lived in England for about 15 years.
Yes, English is my native language, by the definition of a native language which includes the language of habitual use and the language you are most comfortable with. It is not my L1 -- I have never claimed it was my L1, this is why I think the native language term might be confusing. Native is also related to ethic. Some people may consider a language their native based on ethnicity more than on the criteria which language they learned as L1.
I think here the term L1 should be used, not native language. I would have never said that English was my L1.
I hope you did not get offended Ty, I did not mean anything bad. As per Shakespeare, my friend who is English and teaches English in England -- English literature in high school said that the young people now did not understand Shakespeare at all.
Sorry about all the typos, I have seen them in my previous posts, but my posts have to be vetted for the time-being, before I become a paid member, so I don't really want to make more work for the moderators. I meant seen by, or visible to in one place, and there are a few letters missing at the end of some words. So don't go after me for those typo-monsters.
As for the Black guy, it was important to let you know that for someone who speaks very nice hip-hop type of New York slang, these people really sounded Norwegian.
You are right in fact, Ty, many other people could have taken them for Norwegians too, or some South African tourists, or somebody from Kentucky.
By the way, what is your real name Ty. How should I call you. You can call me Lil, Lilian, Liliana or Liliane. These are the basic forms I accept. Lili might be too sweet, but if you insist.
[Edited at 2012-07-30 18:52 GMT]
[Edited at 2012-07-30 18:54 GMT]
[Edited at 2012-07-30 19:06 GMT]
[Edited at 2012-07-30 19:07 GMT]
[Edited at 2012-07-30 19:17 GMT]
[Edited at 2012-07-30 19:20 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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| what is not okay is falsely claiming a native language | Jul 30, 2012 |
LilianBoland wrote:
quality of legal translation, let's say. I have almost perfect accent in German, just don't ask me to translate anything into that language, and in some other languages I hardly speak. Who would be dong the checking?
Hi Lilian,
The verification is supposed to cut down on false claims of native language(s), especially in English. A native language, to most here I believe, means that the speaker speaks it without any foreign accent and writes it in a way only a person can do who began to acquire this language during a very young age, has been formally educated in/"with" it (= in school this language was the language teachers used in all subject areas (= instructional language) - except in foreign language classes when you practice basics of a foreign language in that language) and has continued to use this language for most of their life up to the current time.
A native speaker can usually easily judge if the person he/she talks to is also a native speaker. It is also evident in writing when someone is not a native speaker. Meaning in the way they would write an essay, if you give them a topic or in the general use of idiomatic expressions. But it goes deeper as I argued on another page of this thread. Our young brains are "wired" in a native language (in most cases just one), something that only occurs when you are really immersed in the language and the social and cultural environment of that language.
If someone provides excellent legal translations into a particular language (Y) despite the fact that she/he is not a native speaker of Y, then we here in this thread will not complain about it. (Although I don't believe that the average non-native speaker of Y will provide excellent translations into Y).
But if that person falsely claims that Y is her/his native language when it isn't, then we will ring the alarm bells.
Hope that clarifies it a bit more.
B
| | | | Nuno Rosalino
United Kingdom
Local time: 14:59
Member (2012)
English to Portuguese
+ ...
| He was a bit different that one. | Jul 30, 2012 |
Ty Kendall wrote: Erm, what? I don't think Tolkien considered Middle English his native language. He surely had an interest in older forms of English, but since he was born in 1892 - well within the era of Modern English, I seriously doubt he considered Middle English being his native language i.e. I highly doubt his mother and father (not being academics) knew much if anything of it, much less raised him with it.
Tolkien differentiated between one's "native language" and one's "cradle tongue" - he considered that the former implied an (inherited) emotional affinity whilst the latter was merely the language one learns during childhood.
Here's his lecture on the topic, entitled English and Welsh. Extremely interesting read.
At any rate, he certainly considered Middle English his native language (well, I shouldn't say 'certainly' - that wouldn't be accurate - according to some sources (letter 163, to W.H. Auden), rather.) - but his definition of native language isn't quite the same as ours.
[Edited at 2012-07-30 19:50 GMT]
| | | | | I am under the impression (?) | Jul 30, 2012 |
Marina Steinbach wrote:
Alexandra Villeminey ist native in Spanish and German (both languages are in orange).
How did she manage to do that?
That it could be a bug, infact by clicking on the icons, the following message appears:
"Spanish
Alexandra Villeminey has declared that this is his or her only native language"
German
Alexandra Villeminey has declared that this is his or her only native language
try clicking Marina...
[Edited at 2012-07-30 19:03 GMT]
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I think the first language should really be called L1 for the purpose of sites like this one, because the linguistic definition - not the simplified one from a dictionary, of a native language is very vague. It is a very loaded term, and often connected to someone's ethnicity. I think fewer people would choose their L1 wrongly had this term been used. Just L1 as an option might be not enough in multilingual societies, because people often use other languages than their L1 in their lives; in scho... See more I think the first language should really be called L1 for the purpose of sites like this one, because the linguistic definition - not the simplified one from a dictionary, of a native language is very vague. It is a very loaded term, and often connected to someone's ethnicity. I think fewer people would choose their L1 wrongly had this term been used. Just L1 as an option might be not enough in multilingual societies, because people often use other languages than their L1 in their lives; in school, at work, etc.
Any nativeness verifications are not allowed according to US law, and this is an American site. This would be against the US Constitution to check nativeness of a US citizen. If you want to call your language L1 -- this is a totally different story. You need a license as an educational institution to conduct any tests, and any nativeness test might be considered, or rather will be considered, a violation of human rights.
I don't have any business interest in it at all: I am one of the best legal and literary translators from Polish (only legal from Polish) and Russian, even if I put Klingon as my native language. Of course all translations for publishing houses have to be edited by that particular publisher, so everything is perfect.
[Edited at 2012-07-30 19:09 GMT]
[Edited at 2012-07-30 19:43 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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| when does "verified" really mean "verified" | Jul 30, 2012 |
Marina Steinbach wrote: Angie Garbarino wrote:
I'd be glad to be verified, as in fact I am not, (see my 2 languages in grey) Members with 2 verified native languages exist. .....
Thanks Marina,
I didn't think there were users with two verified languages.
But how does one become a native speaker when you didn't grow up speaking that language at all? It seems highly unlikely even if you did speak a language from the same language group.
Either this is a system glitch (should be unverified) or there are additional explanations:
a) the person who "verified" the language(s) was not competent
b) the criteria for verification were wrong/incomplete
c) the person indeed managed to become a native speaker by skipping the critical period of language acquisition entirely, managing to become a native speaker within a few years = highly suspect
There might be additional explanations but I don't see them right now.
If there is no indication that the person acquired the language when they were very young, I am very skeptical about the verified native proficiency in those languages.
We really have a problem then. Verification must be carried out by a competent person (I suggested by at least two native impartial speakers).
Problem is if both icons say "verified" (= yellow with orange rim) then that's what it means - verified!
B
[Edited at 2012-07-30 20:41 GMT]
| | | | | And that's all we're bothered about, surely? | Jul 30, 2012 |
Olly Pekelharing wrote:
My native language is English and it is the only language I can write into with native proficiency.
I honestly don't care if you sound like Schteve McLaren.
Or indeed if you lost your tongue in a bizarre lawnmower accident.
It's writing what counts. It's writing that triggered the topic. Sure, other attributes or factors might indicate that written output is likely to be of the required standard, but doesn't guarsntee it. Why not just test the thing we're actually interested in?
| | | | Ty Kendall
United Kingdom
Local time: 14:59
Hebrew to English
LilianBoland wrote:
I think here the term L1 should be used, not native language. I would have never said that English was my L1.
Well maybe that's the answer to our problems. (Edit....or maybe not).
The problem with "native language" and with using Interpreter nomenclature (A language, B language) is that both are based on self-assessment (currently). Linguistic terminology (L1,L2) is based on cold hard facts: L1 - first language acquired, L2 - second language acquired etc. It says nothing of someone's self-assessed belief of what is "native" or "strongest" language, or a language they just identify with. Of course there will be exceptions (this is true of any system proposed) but there are surely ways to accomodate and cater for the unusual cases. Of course, people can always still just lie about their L1, L2 etc so it doesn't really solve that problem thinking about it..... .....back to the drawing board....
I hope you did not get offended Ty, I did not mean anything bad. As per Shakespeare, my friend who is English and teaches English in England -- English literature in high school said that the young people now did not understand Shakespeare at all.
I wasn't offended, I'm just saying if they don't understand it, it is because they don't want to, not because they are unable to. British teenagers are a different breed like that. Learning is most definitely not "cool".
By the way, what is your real name Ty. How should I call you.
Totally O/T, but in the interests of transparency and fairness:
Tyrrel Kester Kendall
Ty (Tyrrel) is my real name. Only shortened because as a kid nobody could pronounce it right - many (less informed) English people think it's foreign because it's not common anymore but it is in fact English(-ish), just very very old - Teutonic in fact.
Kester - Celtic form of Christopher. Given that England was originally Celtic, Celtic names are not that unusual. Although I don't use it here simply because middle names are not really used here (in England).
Kendall - it's a town in northern England, although seeing as my dad's family is Welsh it may well be an anglicization of the Welsh: Cynddelw.
[Edited at 2012-07-30 19:53 GMT]
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