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Should “native language” claims be verified?
Thread poster: XXXphxxx (X)
XXXphxxx (X)
XXXphxxx (X)  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 10:01
Portuguese to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Washing one's hands Sep 5, 2012

So do I understand that you do not believe the responsibility begins with us, as the translators, not to misrepresent ourselves? You don’t feel a translator has any liability (regardless of the number of intermediaries involved)? Would you feel the same way if your accountant made a mistake in your accounts? “Yes, I see now it was my responsibility as the buyer of the service to carry out due diligence”.
All these transactions are based on elements of trust, and until I started this
... See more
So do I understand that you do not believe the responsibility begins with us, as the translators, not to misrepresent ourselves? You don’t feel a translator has any liability (regardless of the number of intermediaries involved)? Would you feel the same way if your accountant made a mistake in your accounts? “Yes, I see now it was my responsibility as the buyer of the service to carry out due diligence”.
All these transactions are based on elements of trust, and until I started this thread, and the true extent of the problem came to light, I have to say that I would never have guessed the numbers lying about such a basic fact as their native language.
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Phil Hand
Phil Hand  Identity Verified
China
Local time: 18:01
Chinese to English
Thanks for the link, very interesting! Sep 5, 2012

BeaDeer wrote:

At http://ec.europa.eu/dgs/translation/publications/studies/index_en.htm
there's the 2012 study on the status of our profession with a sizeable comment on Proz.
Proz is mentioned as a site modelling its policies on accepted standards.

BTW, on Sept 20 and 21 the DGT Translation Study Days conference will be streamed live, if anyone is interested, and there is a page on FB set up by Prof. Pym for discussion and comments:

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Status-of-the-Translation-Profession/128938027251819


Here's one of the things that EU report says about Proz:

"A real-world test of plurality in the translation field would be the proliferation of
online translator-client portals in recent years (see Appendix C). There can be
little doubt that competition between the various signalling mechanisms has
maintained considerable variation and innovation in the field. At the same time,
this is a service that in theory becomes more valuable as its databases increase,
and since the databases increase the more it is used, value and use should
constitute a virtuous circle. Thanks to this logic, the field has seen the
emergence of just one large dominant player, ProZ. And yet there is a built-in
corrective: as the databases of translators on ProZ becomes very large and the
prices of translations are thus driven down, the general quality of the translations
declines, unhappy clients no longer trust the signal, and the size itself threatens
to close down the entire system. This may be why the other portals continue to
exist, some in more specialised fields. And it is certainly why ProZ has introduced
its own internal certification system. That is, the plurality itself may create the
need for some kind of corrective signalling mechanism."


 
traductorchile
traductorchile  Identity Verified
Chile
Local time: 07:01
English to Spanish
+ ...
Things aren't black or white Sep 5, 2012

I don’t want to take this to the personal level, because that usually ends up badly.
What I can say is that a liar is quickly discovered, and if anyone values his reputation in an activity where word gets around very quickly, he should be careful with misrepresentations.

On the other hand, proz.com’s options are either you are native or not, with no option in between, so I’m sure that many translators that honestly believe they are capable of delivering good translations
... See more
I don’t want to take this to the personal level, because that usually ends up badly.
What I can say is that a liar is quickly discovered, and if anyone values his reputation in an activity where word gets around very quickly, he should be careful with misrepresentations.

On the other hand, proz.com’s options are either you are native or not, with no option in between, so I’m sure that many translators that honestly believe they are capable of delivering good translations towards their second language (based on facts, not mere intuition) in some fields, don’t have the possibility of classifying themselves in a special category (i.e. competent in Business English translations or the TREMENDOUSLY funny and vague “near native”), so they, with no intention to be liars as you repeatedly inflict (which I suppose has to do with your inherited emotional Celtic passion), don’t have many options but to classify themselves as “native”.
I agree with you, that there are many rotten apples in all language baskets, but some of them are so called “natives”.
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Michael Beijer
Michael Beijer  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 10:01
Member (2009)
Dutch to English
+ ...
Thanks for the great links! Sep 5, 2012

BeaDeer wrote:

P.S.
At http://ec.europa.eu/dgs/translation/publications/studies/index_en.htm
there's the 2012 study on the status of our profession with a sizeable comment on Proz.
Proz is mentioned as a site modelling its policies on accepted standards.

BTW, on Sept 20 and 21 the DGT Translation Study Days conference will be streamed live, if anyone is interested, and there is a page on FB set up by Prof. Pym for discussion and comments:

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Status-of-the-Translation-Profession/128938027251819



I have added them to the top of my read-when-you-have-a-moment-to-spare list!

Michael

PS: I really like how the EU will actually send you these things on paper, for free!

[Edited at 2012-09-05 16:03 GMT]


 
Phil Hand
Phil Hand  Identity Verified
China
Local time: 18:01
Chinese to English
I'm trying not to get into the arguments, but... Sep 5, 2012

You're one of the more sensible people, so I'll address this point with you

traductorchile wrote:

What I can say is that a liar is quickly discovered, and if anyone values his reputation in an activity where word gets around very quickly, he should be careful with misrepresentations.

Unfortunately, I don't think that's true. Proz represents a global marketplace. The world is a very big place, and even if a translator is known by agencies in Chile to be economical with the truth, he can very easily switch to working for agencies in the USA, then India, then China, then...

...I’m sure that many translators that honestly believe they are capable of delivering good translations towards their second language...


What I don't understand is why you think that a translator would have to declare themselves to be "native" in order to do translations into L2?

For example, I don't offer translation into Chinese on the market, but I have been asked to do it by long term clients, and I do it - having told the client what my limitations are. I don't need to tell them that I'm native. If I spent a couple of years working hard on my written Chinese, I could probably get to a level where I was confident enough to offer English to Chinese translation. But I wouldn't claim to be a native. Proz does not force anyone to offer only into their native language.

You seem to be saying that these translators' "beliefs" are so important that they override the clients' demands. You just said in your previous post that most clients here are agencies, and they should know what they are doing. So don't you think they have their own reasons for asking for target-native translators? Why do you now think that when a client asks for native Spanish, it doesn't matter, and any translator who believes they can deliver a good translation can apply?


 
XXXphxxx (X)
XXXphxxx (X)  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 10:01
Portuguese to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
??? Sep 5, 2012

traductorchile wrote:

I don’t want to take this to the personal level, because that usually ends up badly...

...(which I suppose has to do with your inherited emotional Celtic passion)


I honestly don't know what you mean - no need to explain.


 
Jennifer Forbes
Jennifer Forbes  Identity Verified
Local time: 10:01
French to English
+ ...
In memoriam
Petition to Proz Sep 5, 2012

Phil Hand wrote:

Lisa Simpson, MCIL wrote:

Any suggestions on the wording?


Proz is the biggest and best translation website on the internet. We believe that it is well run and that its rules help to create a fair and effective marketplace and forum for translators and our clients. In particular, we appreciate the importance of site rule 6: Misrepresentation and fraud are forbidden.
However, it has become apparent that certain members are misrepresenting themselves by claiming to be native speakers of languages in which they are not even competent, let alone native. We believe that allowing this state of affairs to continue brings the website into disrepute, and we request that Proz takes measures to curb the problem, not just for an elite subset of members, but for all members.

Name Proz member


I think Phil's wording would be excellent for a petition to Proz from those who think it should enforce its own rule and verify native language claims.
Jenny


 
traductorchile
traductorchile  Identity Verified
Chile
Local time: 07:01
English to Spanish
+ ...
Field required Sep 5, 2012

Phil Hand wrote:
You're one of the more sensible people, so I'll address this point with you


Thanks for the praise, although I don't buy it. But I'll answer your points.

Unfortunately, I don't think that's true. Proz represents a global marketplace. The world is a very big place, and even if a translator is known by agencies in Chile to be economical with the truth, he can very easily switch to working for agencies in the USA, then India, then China, then...


The world might be huge, but the Internet makes it small, and with adequate research together with other available tools liars can be caught.

What I don't understand is why you think that a translator would have to declare themselves to be "native" in order to do translations into L2?


Maybe I'm wrong, but in proz if you don't establish a language pair you don't get job offers in that language pair.


For example, I don't offer translation into Chinese on the market, but I have been asked to do it by long term clients, and I do it - having told the client what my limitations are.


Thanks for mentioning that. I also receive many offers to translate towards English through proz, but I don't bid unless I feel very comfortable with the topic and I'm sure I can deliver a good translation. The fact that at proz most job offers don't show or deliver the text to be translated, allowing you to evaluate the text before making a bid, makes bidding more like betting, something that affects so called "natives" just as well.
I am very responsible with my work; I like to boast about my 100% on-time delivery record, and not having ever received a complaint, except that time when my Word checker got turned off and I thought it was ok, so as it was urgent I sent it off. Accidents happen. Luckily we had good communication so I fixed it fast. Now I'm more modest and check the checker.


So don't you think they have their own reasons for asking for target-native translators?


I believe their assumptions are wrong. I believe there are so called "native" translators that do a very bad job, and I can do it better, in some cases. Surely there are others that can do it better than me, but the question is: is my output adequate, above average, does it provide what the client needs, is it, at least, of good enough quality. To date I have never received a complaint regarding my translations towards English, except in a case where I translated a CV and the chap insisted he wanted me to put his degree as xxxx and not yyyy. As Universities don't homologate degrees by the name of the degree but by comparing the programs, and as there was some murkiness, I said no, and that caused conflict. Since then I state clearly that I don't homologate studies; Universities or public entities do that.


 
traductorchile
traductorchile  Identity Verified
Chile
Local time: 07:01
English to Spanish
+ ...
I was trying to be nice Sep 5, 2012

Lisa Simpson, MCIL wrote:
I honestly don't know what you mean - no need to explain.


Yes, you didn't get what I meant. I meant that when you insist on calling people liars, I prefer to consider that you don't do it with a bad intention, but part of a passion. The assumption of innocence.


 
Phil Hand
Phil Hand  Identity Verified
China
Local time: 18:01
Chinese to English
Rule of the marketplace: mutual respect Sep 5, 2012

traductorchile wrote:
Maybe I'm wrong, but in proz if you don't establish a language pair you don't get job offers in that language pair.

You don't receive (or are unable to bid on) offers where the client specifies that they want a native in whatever language. It's not a Proz rule, it's the client's wishes.


I believe their assumptions are wrong. I believe there are so called "native" translators that do a very bad job, and I can do it better, in some cases.

Well then, I think you're abusing Proz. You're welcome to "believe" what you like, but these clients have taken the deliberate step of placing their jobs on Proz, rather than on an unregulated site; and of specifying exactly who they want for the job.

(Incidentally, if the client specifies a certain field of expertise, you also cannot bid on the job unless your profile specifies that field of expertise. It's not just language - Proz offers clients fine controls on who they get applying for their jobs.)

Now, the client may be wrong. That's their problem. But if you choose to ignore the client's explicitly stated wishes, then you are violating both the letter and the spirit of Proz's rule. And you are violating a basic rule of business: mutual respect. Saying "I believe" doesn't make it right.


 
traductorchile
traductorchile  Identity Verified
Chile
Local time: 07:01
English to Spanish
+ ...
read the proz.com rules about respect Sep 5, 2012

Phil Hand wrote:




If you want to turn this forum into a means to demean fellow translators I suggest you get hold of all the translators that hate me and start mobbing me outright, and don't cover up your real intentions with false praise.

I have tried to keep my contributions in a high level, but I won't tolerate personal attacks.
I suggest you read the proz.com rules about respect. You can believe what you want, but you can't make accusations of wrongdoing of colleagues in this way. If you believe I am accountable of any wrongdoing use the channels that proz.com has for you, otherwise hold your horses.

I must go now, and I'll be back if there is anyone here that wants to debate ideas. Why waste my fingers uselessly?


 
Bernhard Sulzer
Bernhard Sulzer  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 06:01
English to German
+ ...
verification? well yes, of course! Sep 5, 2012

Lisa Simpson, MCIL wrote:

It is about giving outsourcers what they deserve, not duping them with claims about speaking English or anything else as a native language when it is most evidently not true. We have all seen websites on a multitude of ProZ profiles that have been translated by individuals declaring that they have this level of competence - the results would make you want to weep. They are a disgrace to the profession.


Fully support you on all of the above.
And the only way to change it is to verify who is a native speaker and who is not.
I would gladly talk to a translator who was born, grew up, went to school and lives and works in Austria or Germany and have him/her confirm that I also am a German native speaker.
I'll even write an essay in German on why it's important and give that to her/him.

That oughta do it.

B


 
Bernhard Sulzer
Bernhard Sulzer  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 06:01
English to German
+ ...
count me in from "In particular" onward ... Sep 5, 2012

Phil Hand wrote:

... In particular, we appreciate the importance of site rule 6: Misrepresentation and fraud are forbidden.
However, it has become apparent that certain members are misrepresenting themselves by claiming to be native speakers of languages in which they are not even competent, let alone native. We believe that allowing this state of affairs to continue brings the website into disrepute, and we request that Proz takes measures to curb the problem, not just for an elite subset of members, but for all members.

Name Proz member


I would even go as far as saying:
"... we request that Proz.com takes measures to curb the problem by verifying native language claims, not just for an elite subset of members, but for all members.

B


 
Ambrose Li
Ambrose Li  Identity Verified
Canada
Local time: 06:01
English
+ ...
essays Sep 5, 2012

Bernhard Sulzer wrote:

I'll even write an essay in German on why it's important and give that to her/him.

That oughta do it.


Let me first reiterate that I’m not opposed to this—all tests are flawed; it’s just a matter of choosing the least flawed option among the alternatives—but I just can’t help but be reminded of what I went through to fulfil my university’s English language requirements for graduation.

Everyone was asked to write an essay within a time limit. Everyone hated it (that is, including the native speakers). I kept failing until I decided to give up and said “I’ll just write whatever. I’ll fail this anyway.”

I don’t know what this means. But it probably illustrates how good essays (or more generally good writing) need not imply native speech and how native speech need not imply good essays.

(And I once had to deal with some stuff—what anyone would consider marketing copy—written by a professor in my “native language.” It was a nightmare to read, let alone translate, even though he was definitely way more competent in that language than I am.)


[Edited at 2012-09-05 18:55 GMT]


 
psicutrinius
psicutrinius  Identity Verified
Spain
Local time: 11:01
Member (2008)
Spanish to English
+ ...
I wholeheartedly agree with Phil and Bernhard.. Sep 5, 2012

up to,and including, the last (so far) of Bernhardt posts. If anything, I would add (as additional food for thought) some of what Phil found at the EU site, namely:

there is a built-in corrective: as the databases of translators on ProZ becomes very large and the prices of translations are thus driven down, the general quality of the translations declines, unhappy clients no longer trust the signal, and the size itself threatens to close down the entire system.


 
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Should “native language” claims be verified?






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