| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 90 91 92 93 94 95 96 97 98 99 100 101 102 103 104 105 106 107 108 109 110 111 112 113 114 115 116 117 118 119 120 121 122 123 124 125 126 127 128 129 130 131 132 133 134 135 136 137 138 139 140 141 142 143 144 145 146 147 148 149 150 151 152 153 154 155 156 157 158 159 160 161 162 163 164 165 166 167 168 169 170 171 172 173 174 175 176 177 178 179 180 181 182 183] > | Should “native language” claims be verified? Thread poster: XXXphxxx (X)
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I just took a look at some Dutch to English translator profiles and wasn't surprised to find a lot of excellently qualified translators in this language pair. One Dutch translator has an advanced degree from Oxford in biochemistry. If I were an outsourcer looking for someone translate a Dutch pharmaceutical document into English, she would certainly be at the top of my list. But I still don't think she should be claiming English as her native language (grey icon) in addition to Dutch.
Ano... See more I just took a look at some Dutch to English translator profiles and wasn't surprised to find a lot of excellently qualified translators in this language pair. One Dutch translator has an advanced degree from Oxford in biochemistry. If I were an outsourcer looking for someone translate a Dutch pharmaceutical document into English, she would certainly be at the top of my list. But I still don't think she should be claiming English as her native language (grey icon) in addition to Dutch.
Another Dutch translator says she was born in Maastricht and emigrated to the US when she was 20, but that since she has lived in the US for 20 years she says she can confidently claim both Dutch and English as her native languages.
The details of these profiles have been changed to preserve confidentiality. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | A ridiculous idea | Jun 28, 2012 |
This is really a ridiculous idea, that people who are bilingual, or trilingual even, should lie and report one language as their native. I personally think this discussion is kind of purposeless, since after further thought given to the subject, I really think the proz system that is used now, is one of the best possible solutions. Everything else is either based on prejudice, Utopian, or lacks purpose, in my opinion.
| | | | Samuel Murray 
Netherlands
Local time: 08:12
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
| On the meaning of icons, and is Charlie verified? | Jun 28, 2012 |
Charlie Bavington wrote: Lisa Simpson, MCIL wrote:
... the majority (yes, Charlie B., "the majority") of people on this site wouldn't know how to distinguish between yellow and grey icons and this is exactly the loophole people are currently exploiting. I said the other day, it's only this thread that alerted me to the different colours anyway.
There are many icons used on this site, and if you hover your mouse over the icon, the meaning becomes clear, and if you want more information, you can click on the icon. That is not something that ProZ.com invented -- it is a common way all over the web to provide standardised information in a visible yet unobtrusive way. I do not believe the difference between the icons are too slight to be noticed, and I did in fact know what both colours meant before this thread started.
I do notice that there is a bug... if you hover over the "N" icon, no popup appears. The popups can be seen if you hover your mouse over e.g. the checkmark that shows that your identity is verified. I can't believe that the lack of a popup on the "N" icon is intentional -- it must simply be a bug. I see now that the checkmark icon has both alt text and title text in the HTML, whereas the N icon has only alt text, so only browsers that show alt text as a popup will show a popup for the N icon.
I'm verified and haven't the foggiest notion specifcally how that happened...
I find no indication on your profile page that your native language is verified, Charlie. Can you please point it out to me? Or is it something that only you can see?
If I click on the N icon in your profile, I get this message:
ProZ.com Native Speaker
Charlie Bavington has reported
the following native language:
English
Charlie Bavington has declared
that this is his or her only
native language
If I click on the N icon of someone's profile that have grey N icons, I get this:
ProZ.com Native Speaker
John Smith has reported the
following native languages:
English
Slobovian
| | | | Samuel Murray
Netherlands
Local time: 08:12
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
| Jared says... | Jun 28, 2012 |
Lisa Simpson, MCIL wrote:
As I understand it, the site policy is that an unverified language cannot be considered fraudulent. Jared says as much if I can find his post...
Are you referring to this post?
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Phil Hand
China
Local time: 14:12
Chinese to English
| Purpose of discussion | Jun 28, 2012 |
Lillian
I hope you won't abandon the discussion, because your view is important.
You've pointed out a real problem with Lisa's interim solution - it only allows one native language, and some people have more than one.
Do you think this problem is more serious than the problems we've pointed out, of people with poor English/other language claiming to be natives?
Do you have any suggestions for how the site should deal with people who can't put t... See more Lillian
I hope you won't abandon the discussion, because your view is important.
You've pointed out a real problem with Lisa's interim solution - it only allows one native language, and some people have more than one.
Do you think this problem is more serious than the problems we've pointed out, of people with poor English/other language claiming to be natives?
Do you have any suggestions for how the site should deal with people who can't put together a decent sentence in English, yet claim to be native English speakers?
It is possible that in the end, we could decide that all the solutions are worse than the problem itself. That would be a reasonable conclusion. But in order to get there, I hope you can put an argument for why. And that involves recognising the nature of the problem. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Yellow = confirmed, syn. verified | Jun 28, 2012 |
I can't possibly comment on different perceptions as to the noticeability or otherwise of the difference in the "N" icons. All I can say is that I genuinely never noticed before. And as any decent or indeed mediocre developer knows (besides knowing about mouseover), you should try to make systems pitched at the slowest-witted and unobservant of likely users.
I am myself now available for hire as such, in light of your most illuminating lecture.
Samuel Murray wrote:
I find no indication on your profile page that your native language is verified, Charlie. Can you please point it out to me? Or is it something that only you can see?
Yellow = "confirmed" (as per Lisa's link), and I'm taking "confirmed" as synonymnous with "verified".
If this is a mistake, then I've been barking up the wrong veritable forest of trees (as I suspect others may) throughout, and the amount of swearing I had apparently had to do to get the yellow "N" will be as ******* nothing compared the amount I'm going to do.
I'll probably be the first **** on here with a ******* blue one.
| | | | Sheila Wilson
Spain
Local time: 07:12
Member (2007)
English
+ ...
| Where's miNe"??? | Jun 28, 2012 |
Charlie Bavington wrote: I'll probably be the first **** on here with a ******* blue one.
It's all right for you, Charlie, you've got a yellow one already. What about me? I haven't got one of any colour, not even a boring grey one.
I feel left out. Perhaps you all think I don't qualify for English as a native language? I know us Londoners talk a bit common, but it's still Queen's English, ain't it, gov? Anyone else out there un-enned? Why is it always me?
Sheila
| | | | Samuel Murray
Netherlands
Local time: 08:12
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
| yellow = not contested (does not mean verified or confirmed) | Jun 28, 2012 |
Charlie Bavington wrote:
Yellow = "confirmed" (as per Lisa's link), and I'm taking "confirmed" as synonymnous with "verified".
Actually, yellow means neither confirmed nor verified. It simply means "less likely to be unlikely". In fact, I'm under the impression that practically every paying ProZ.com member who declares only one language automatically gets a yellow icon, unless it is taken away from them. Read the description again (from Lisa's link):
A blue and yellow ProZ.com Native Speaker icon is used to represent native languages that are reasonably certain to be accurate. This includes (a) native languages that have been confirmed by ProZ.com, and (b) native languages reported by ProZ.com members who have sworn that they only have one native language (a native language cannot be changed once it is declared).
This is why Lisa's suggestion here makes no sense to me, and I wish someone would explain to me how it would be an improvement at all.
[Edited at 2012-06-28 19:26 GMT]
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| Improvements | Jun 28, 2012 |
Samuel Murray wrote:
and I wish someone would explain to me how it would be an improvement at all.
I can think of one thing that would be a massive ******* improvement....
Even me, on a complete downer about the site's willingness to change, does not expect them to implement a third colour of "N", distinguishable to a greater or lesser degree from the other two, and expect Lord knows how many existing members to jump through however many hoops you see fit to yet a different colour because Samuel thinks confirmed and verified are different.
I'd bet a year's membership that the grey/black and yellow "N"s are all we get to work with here (despite my hilarious suggestion of "N"s with crosses through them), and that while we might be allowed to tinker with their definitions, radical changes ain't gonna be happening. Even on a mouseover. Whatever changes happen are gonna be incremental and relatively minor (hence challenges to existing "N"s, not "verification" for all existing members to get another colout "N", is how I would see this panning out).
So how about we aim to be constructive with the tools available, huh?
I should point out that Samuel has already made it clear he cares not a jot about improving the overall quality and honesty demonstrated on proz, so I suspect I'll be treating his future input with the weight it warrants in view of his stance.
[Edited at 2012-06-28 19:57 GMT]
[Edited at 2012-06-28 20:00 GMT]
| | | | Samuel Murray
Netherlands
Local time: 08:12
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
| What happened to Sheila's icon | Jun 28, 2012 |
Sheila Wilson wrote:
What about me? I haven't got one of any colour, not even a boring grey one.
Well, you had one in October 2010:
http://web.archive.org/web/20101014131613/http://www.proz.com/profile/630232
...so yours must have been taken away for some or other odd reason. I do notice that you had changed your top language combination since then. That would be the type of thing that would trigger the yellow icon to become gray or even disappear.
| | | | Samuel Murray
Netherlands
Local time: 08:12
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
| Did I say that? | Jun 28, 2012 |
Charlie Bavington wrote:
...because Samuel thinks confirmed and verified are different.
Did I say that? Where?
| | | | Sheila Wilson
Spain
Local time: 07:12
Member (2007)
English
+ ...
| If only I could turn the clock back | Jun 28, 2012 |
Phew! Thanks for the proof, Sherlock Murray. I don't know how you did that, but I've framed it.
...so yours must have been taken away for some or other odd reason. I do notice that you had changed your top language combination since then. That would be the type of thing that would trigger the yellow icon to become gray or even disappear.
Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear... what have I done? Last month I left France, where I'd been doing more and more English monolingual work, and thought now would be a logical time to change. Not that I'm stopping the FR>EN, just specialising in EN. Perhaps one day I'll add ES>EN but at the current rate of progress it seems doubtful I'll ever get there.
I vote for never taking away verified status of native language once it's been given. Just because I've reordered language pairs is no reason to deprive me of that. I'm dead miffed, to be honest.
Sheila
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psicutrinius
Spain
Local time: 08:12
Member (2008)
Spanish to English
+ ...
I just checked. You have (had, about 3 minutes ago) a blue-on-yellow N for English
[Edited at 2012-06-28 20:46 GMT]
| | | | XXXphxxx (X)
United Kingdom
Local time: 07:12
Portuguese to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | Not sure you understand what we're talking about | Jun 28, 2012 |
LilianBoland wrote:
There is no way of verifying anybody's native language by a site like this one. Maybe the Federal Police, could do it somehow, but not a linguistic site. Do you expect that people will provide copies of their Birth Certificates and make them available for viewing?A Birth Certificate is not any kind of proof either, but no one will provide it for various reasons.
You appear to have a different understanding of "native language". This has nothing to do with birth certificates, nor certainly anything that the "Federal Police" could verify, we're simply talking about the language that a person speaks most fluently, accurately, naturally, their mother tongue, first language, dominant language, you name it... I find it astonishing that it is so impossible for so many to understand the concept of a "native language".
| | | | XXXphxxx (X)
United Kingdom
Local time: 07:12
Portuguese to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | Let me simplify still further | Jun 28, 2012 |
Samuel Murray wrote: This is why Lisa's suggestion here makes no sense to me, and I wish someone would explain to me how it would be an improvement at all. [Edited at 2012-06-28 19:26 GMT]
I propose one native language for everyone, that's it. One day between now and the end of time when ProZ decides how to implement a verification process, two or more native languages may be possible. I think part of the confusion has arisen between what I see as two different processes:
1) challenging a claim - a process that exists at present whereby a fraudulent claim can be challenged on the basis that this constitutes deception and misrepresentation: http://www.proz.com/siterules/general/6#6
2) verification – a process that does not yet exist and is yet to be decided, but is loosely envisaged to operate along the lines of a chat with a panel of native speakers.
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