| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 90 91 92 93 94 95 96 97 98 99 100 101 102 103 104 105 106 107 108 109 110 111 112 113 114 115 116 117 118 119 120 121 122 123 124 125 126 127 128 129 130 131 132 133 134 135 136 137 138 139 140 141 142 143 144 145 146 147 148 149 150 151 152 153 154 155 156 157 158 159 160 161 162 163 164 165 166 167 168 169 170 171 172 173 174 175 176 177 178 179 180 181 182 183] > | Should “native language” claims be verified? Thread poster: XXXphxxx (X)
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| @LilianBoland | Oct 1, 2012 |
LilianBoland wrote:
Hi. Jose. I would think this were machine translation -- the book about Jesus.
I think somebody who has just graduated from high school, and learned English for four years would have done a better job. This might be personal connections -- sometimes it is common in some publishing circles that certain people with really high education who have no talent to do literary translation handle translation of highly sophisticated philosophical texts, and the outcome might be similar to this one. If you don't understand the concepts in any language, you cannot translate it.
Lilian, believe me, it was not MT. I had to review/edit the entire thing. The advantage of machine translation is that it's thoroughly consistent. If it translates "apple" into "banana" once, it will do so all the way through. Yet in this case I saw apples translated into oranges, cherries, plums, you name it!
It was not the case of a personal connection. If it were, I'd have been the one chosen.
I've seen 'personal connection' works. Once I was hired to break a translation into subtitles, timespot them, and burn the DVD. It was a lecture by a worldwide known management guru, sponsored by an even better known worldwide corporation. No matter who nor where you are, I'd bet you have already bought their products many times in your life. I was told that the translation had been done by that company CEO's mistress, and that she had been royally compensated for her extreme effort. I was specifically instructed not to change one comma there. Among hundreds of other things, it beats me how "thirty million" was translated into "sixty thousand", just to give an idea.
I am wary of machine translation. A first-class client of mine in Florida once contacted me about a proofreading job. A new prospective client had contacted her, because they were unsatisfied with their current translation provider. They wanted to try her services first by proofreading a job that other vendor has delivered, some 10 pages of legal stuff. It was MT all right (of course they were not happy with Google Translate). The most striking telltale sign was "TWETNY" (sic!) left untranslated. Any school kid would know it's "20" mistyped... but not MT! My client was mad at those people trying to pull the wool over her eyes, to get top-notch translation at proofreading rates.
This is why I strongly advise prospects offering half of my standard rates, or less, to use free online MT. If the end-client takes that #$%&, they'll make a higher profit. If it doesn't stick, they'll have more money left in the budget to afford hiring a pro to do it.
| | | | | mimicking versus the real thing | Oct 1, 2012 |
Olly Pekelharing wrote:
... It's apparently not hard for some to mimic nativeness perfectly in speech, but you'll always catch them out on their writing.
Olly Pekelharing wrote:
Come to think of it, this describes perfectly my command of the Dutch language. I would definitely pass a test as a native speaker of Dutch, but fail as a native writer.
I very much doubt that it's not hard for some to mimic nativeness, at least in English. First of all, what you mimic is maybe an accent, and believe me, even to just mimic an accent successfully, you must have spent quite some time in a country. This might be easier if that second language is in the same language group as your first, but it is diifficult for anyone who didn't learn the language within a native language environment or through contact with native speakers.
In addition, a native speaker will probably clearly hear that you are indeed "mimicking" the language, in other words, your mimicking will sound like "mimicking", overdone, artificial, and plain to hear that it is not original native speech.
In addition, as has been pointed out in this thread, in order to appear as a native speaker of English, you must have mastered some very intricate speech patterns, vocabulary, grammar constructs, etc. It's far from easy to appear as a native, even in speech.
I would always combine the verification procedure with a pre-eligibility questionnaire that will show where and when that native language was acquired.
The procedure shouldn't be about "proving" your native speech out of the blue, but it should be about having your claim accepted, based on a talk or writing sample, after you stated in your questionnaire that you grew up with that language.
B
[Edited at 2012-10-01 13:15 GMT]
| | | | XXXphxxx (X) 
United Kingdom
Local time: 04:45
Portuguese to English
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TOPIC STARTER | I'm afraid you're probably right | Oct 1, 2012 |
Michael Beijer wrote:
I suppose that since I am one of the only Dutch-English translators to actually speak up on this matter here in this thread (apart from Olly), it is also fairly understandable that I am also going to receive a lot of the flak. I seem to have made myself a bit of a shooting target, so to speak. I also suppose that the reason why so few other Dutch translators have chosen to say anything in their/our defense is that it is in the interest of the lying Dunglish hordes to just lie low and hope this whole thing blows over soon.
Michael
I've been forwarded dozens of profiles during the course of this thread as evidence of x, y and z. One profile for example was of a Certified P (no less) who had declared 2 native languages (NL and EN) and yet the About section of the profile clearly stated that he/she was a native Dutch speaker. So, no particular attempt at deception and we could argue that he/she did indeed fall into the category of EN "native speaker" that Suzan Hamer described. I note that today, a month and a half later, he/she has deleted that reference to being a Dutch native speaker. Coincidence?
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@Bernhard. Well I'm certainly no expert. Maybe I'm just easily fooled. I hereby disqualify myself for the position of native language tester-by-phone, should it be implemented.
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Michael Beijer
United Kingdom
Local time: 04:45
Member (2009)
Dutch to English
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I don't have time to do it at the moment, but it would be interesting to go through the Proz jobs section and have a look at exactly how many jobs are being posted in each language combination and direction. I am only guessing, but I think a connection would be found between these numbers and the problem at hand. That is, I suspect that you might find a purely economic reason for why so many people here are misrepresenting themselves and turning into Language X -> English translators / 'native E... See more I don't have time to do it at the moment, but it would be interesting to go through the Proz jobs section and have a look at exactly how many jobs are being posted in each language combination and direction. I am only guessing, but I think a connection would be found between these numbers and the problem at hand. That is, I suspect that you might find a purely economic reason for why so many people here are misrepresenting themselves and turning into Language X -> English translators / 'native English speakers' overnight.
Michael
[Edited at 2012-10-01 13:50 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | XXXphxxx (X)
United Kingdom
Local time: 04:45
Portuguese to English
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TOPIC STARTER
Michael Beijer wrote:
I don't have time to do it at the moment, but it would be interesting to go through the Proz jobs section and have a look at exactly how many jobs are being posted in each language combination and direction. I am only guessing, but I think a connection would be found between these numbers and the problem at hand. That is, I suspect that you might find a purely economic reason for why so many people here are misrepresenting themselves and turning into Language X -> English translators / 'native English speakers' overnight.
Michael
[Edited at 2012-10-01 13:50 GMT]
I don't have the slightest doubt of that. There will undoubtedly be a larger call for translation into EN rather than NL, and that is precisely why I'm afraid I don't think it's overly cynical to see it as intentional misrepresentation rather than an innocent confusion over the meaning of the term "native speaker".
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Michael Beijer wrote:
I suspect that you might find a purely economic reason
Or a need to meet expectations. "Hi Hans, you studied English, didn't you? Can you translate this into English for me, please?" Direct customers usually think that way.
Groeten,
Hans
| | | | | Disqualification | Oct 1, 2012 |
Olly Pekelharing wrote:
@Bernhard. Well I'm certainly no expert. Maybe I'm just easily fooled. I hereby disqualify myself for the position of native language tester-by-phone, should it be implemented.
As a native speaker of PT-BR, I declare myself fully disqualified to test any PT-PT speakers. Unless they try really hard to get their message through to me, I barely understand what they say. To give you an idea, I understand much better anything said in Spanish, a language that I've never studied in my entire life, learned through 'osmosis'.
Once I was in New Jersey, attending an international business conference (not at all related to translation). One of the speakers was coming from Manchester, England. As we stayed at the same hotel, I had a chance to chat with him a few times in advance, so I got used to his rather unusual way of speaking English.
When he made his presentation, I saw some 40 Americans attendees, from maybe 15 different states, gaping as they understood as little of that man's speech as I understand of PT-PT. His ideas were brilliant, though.
So, my esteemed leaders of the Proz natives inquisition, fasten your seat bealts, and brace yourselves to face the within-language Tower of Babel among variants.
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To learn a language 'perfectly', without any trace of a foreign accent, it has to be done before the age of about eleven.
| | | | | Yes, I believe you, Jose. | Oct 1, 2012 |
In fact, all speakers at some seminars are advised not to use idioms in their speeches. The organizers cannot tell people to adjust their accent, of course, which would be discriminatory, but they instruct speakers to speak clearly, at a slower pace, and not to use idioms. (at least to try to avoid them).
[Edited at 2012-10-01 14:52 GMT]
[Edited at 2012-10-01 14:53 GMT]
| | | | Ty Kendall
United Kingdom
Local time: 04:45
Hebrew to English
| Not always the case | Oct 1, 2012 |
José Henrique Lamensdorf wrote:
So, my esteemed leaders of the Proz natives inquisition, fasten your seat bealts, and brace yourselves to face the within-language Tower of Babel among variants.
I think that might be overstating things. The fact that some Americans have difficulty with non-American accents is almost always down to a simple lack of exposure (as I said in a previous post in reply to one of Liliana's claims).
Seeing as the people in your anecdote didn't seem to be translators - from what you have said, I wouldn't necessarily expect them to be as linguistically aware as a translator, or any linguist.
Moreover, the reverse definitely isn't the case. In the UK we are inundated with American (and other) accents and there is definitely no lack of exposure in that direction, even for the layman.
So, whilst an individual with little exposure to other accents might feel disqualified to assess them, I for one would feel rather comfortable with it and it really depends on a lot of things, rather than a blanket disqualification.
| | | | | Lisa, you call yourself a monolingual person, just because you don't want to be a bilingual person | Oct 1, 2012 |
English/Portuguese. This is the truth. I don't believe that someone who had been growing up in Brazil for the first 25 years of her life, especially a translator who translates from that language, does not have a native level of Portuguese as well, and cannot call herself bilingual.
This is really your choice. You don't have to declare that language as your native, if you don't want to. It does not mean, however, that another person whose parents spoke German, let's say, and the pe... See more English/Portuguese. This is the truth. I don't believe that someone who had been growing up in Brazil for the first 25 years of her life, especially a translator who translates from that language, does not have a native level of Portuguese as well, and cannot call herself bilingual.
This is really your choice. You don't have to declare that language as your native, if you don't want to. It does not mean, however, that another person whose parents spoke German, let's say, and the person had grown up in Brazil, could not claim Portuguese as their second native language.
P.S. Sorry about some typos in previous posts, but I cannot edit them anymore, after 24 hours. ▲ Collapse
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XXXphxxx (X)
United Kingdom
Local time: 04:45
Portuguese to English
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TOPIC STARTER
LilianBoland wrote:
English/Portuguese. This is the truth. I don't believe that someone who had been growing up in Brazil for the first 25 years of her life, especially a translator who translates from that language, does not have a native level of Portuguese as well, and cannot call herself bilingual.
This is really your choice. You don't have to declare that language as your native, if you don't want to. It does not mean, however, that another person whose parents spoke German, let's say, and the person had grown up in Brazil, could not claim Portuguese as their second native language.
Indeed, if that person had been educated in Portuguese and hadn't left the country 20 years ago. In which case I'd question their German native speaker status.
| | | | Balasubramaniam L.
India
Local time: 09:15
Member (2006)
English to Hindi
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SITE LOCALIZER | The Indian case | Oct 1, 2012 |
Suzan Hamer wrote:
I often meet Dutch people who indeed SPEAK English at a native or near-native level. However, I find that though they may speak English at that level, their writing leaves much to be desired.
Olly Pekelharing wrote:
It's apparently not hard for some to mimic nativeness perfectly in speech, but you'll always catch them out on their writing.
Curiously, the opposite is true with English in India. Many Indians stick out a mile as non-native of English when they open their mouth in English, but their writing in English is often flawless. Maybe this has to do with the fact that in India the written form of English is more prevalent than the spoken form and most people’s English is acquired from reading rather than listening.
So many Indians would flunk a speech test in English but will sail through a written English test.
The world apparently lends itself very little to stereotyping.
| | | | Balasubramaniam L.
India
Local time: 09:15
Member (2006)
English to Hindi
+ ...
SITE LOCALIZER | More lying... | Oct 1, 2012 |
LilianBoland wrote:
I don't believe that someone who had been growing up in Brazil for the first 25 years of her life, especially a translator who translates from that language, does not have a native level of Portuguese as well, and cannot call herself bilingual.
I haven't dissected anyone's profiles, I haven't the inclination or the time, so this is no direct accusation on anybody, but if what Lilian says is true, then we have here another type of lying. A bilingual person not declaring both (or all) his languages as his native languages and opting for one of the languages for his native language, may be because the market is larger in that direction.
While we are at it, should we raise Cain over this issue too? Should we insist that every one compulsorily declare all their native languages, just for the sake of truthfulness, and for providing outsourcers with a more complete bio-profile?
After all, we can't pick and choose what our native language is, just like we can't choose our skin colour, and we have to state what is our native language. So if we have several, and we declare only one, then it seems like lying to me, or dealing out half truths.
[2012-10-01 16:49 GMT पर संपादन हुआ]
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