| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 90 91 92 93 94 95 96 97 98 99 100 101 102 103 104 105 106 107 108 109 110 111 112 113 114 115 116 117 118 119 120 121 122 123 124 125 126 127 128 129 130 131 132 133 134 135 136 137 138 139 140 141 142 143 144 145 146 147 148 149 150 151 152 153 154 155 156 157 158 159 160 161 162 163 164 165 166 167 168 169 170 171 172 173 174 175 176 177 178 179 180 181 182 183] > | Should “native language” claims be verified? Thread poster: XXXphxxx (X)
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Balasubramaniam L. 
India
Local time: 09:22
Member (2006)
English to Hindi
+ ...
SITE LOCALIZER | What about mother-less-ness? | Sep 22, 2012 |
finnword1 wrote:
In many languages the term is "mother tongue". Perhaps these translators claiming two or more native languages actually grew up in a polygamous home where each "mother" spoke a different language. Sounds like fun.
Apologies for bringing in the macabre element and spoiling your fun, but what if the mother died at child-birth? Will the child have no mother tongue?
| | | | Balasubramaniam L.
India
Local time: 09:22
Member (2006)
English to Hindi
+ ...
SITE LOCALIZER | For what it is worth... | Sep 22, 2012 |
Michele Fauble wrote:
Belgian Dutch TV programs are subtitled in the Netherlands, and European Portuguese TV programs and movies are subtitled in Brazil.
[Edited at 2012-09-21 18:41 GMT]
Hollywood movies shown on HBO, Star Movies, etc., in India are routinely subtitled in English. It may seem strange for an English movie to have its dialogues shown in written form in English, but it is a reflection of the fact that though English is prevalent in India, few understand or use the spoken form of the language. It is used more in its written form.
The Hollywood movies release in India with both the English version (with English subtitles) as well as Hindi versions (and also Tamil and Telugu versions sometimes), where the dialogues are all cleverly dubbed into Hindi, Tamil, Telugu, etc.
The dubbed Hollywood movies (particularly the ones in Hindi) rake in huge amounts of money.
| | | | Ty Kendall
United Kingdom
Local time: 04:52
Hebrew to English
| Erm, hold on...it smacks of disingenuousness to make such a statement.... | Sep 22, 2012 |
Balasubramaniam L. wrote:
It smacks of dishonesty to quote only that portion of a source that is in conformity with one's own views.
On a stove in some kitchen somewhere, there's a pot calling a kettle 'black'.
Hollywood movies shown on HBO, Star Movies, etc., in India are routinely subtitled in English. It may seem strange for an English movie to have its dialogues shown in written form in English
It's not strange at all, I was watching the US version of Hell's Kitchen and when a French chef with a strong accent in English came on, so did the subtitles. Totally irrelevant to this discussion though.
[Edited at 2012-09-22 08:21 GMT]
| | | | | Hold your horses, Mr. Balasubramaniam L. | Sep 22, 2012 |
Balasubramaniam L. wrote: Bernhard Sulzer wrote: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mother_tongue A first language (also native language, mother tongue, arterial language, or L1) is the language(s) a person has learned from birth[1] or within the critical period ..." -------------- The wikipedia article (and even the definition) goes on to say there are other definitions for mother tongue/native language. But for our purposes as members of a translation services portal, I would stop right after the part I quoted above. B [Edited at 2012-09-21 17:39 GMT]
Balasubramaniam L. wrote:
It smacks of dishonesty to quote only that portion of a source that is in conformity with one's own views.
In the case of the above wikipedia article, it says much more than the above with reference to mother tongue. It in fact even defines mother tongue as the language in which one is most competent, and also as the language one uses most.
Uh, yes, it says much more. For example, as you quoted above, "... defines mother tongue as the language in which one is most competent, and also as the language one uses most."
Well, I don't agree with that; that wouldn't be part of my definition.
I "selected" the part which I believe would work well as a definition for our purposes. And I clearly stated that and pointed out that there is much more to the wikipedia definition.
Your copying of whole paragraphs from the wikipedia page is serving what purpose exactly? You could have just clicked on the link I had provided (see above).
[Edited at 2012-09-22 08:23 GMT]
N.B. I should add that any definition should include ... "is the language(s) a person has learned from birth[1] or within the critical period within a native language environment of that language.
[Edited at 2012-09-22 17:01 GMT]
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| Difference between mother tongue and native language | Sep 22, 2012 |
This is a question of terminology, and admittedly the set of 'mother tongue', and 'native', 'bilingual', 'fluent' and 'basic' command, combined with 'first language', 'second language', etc, is a bit confusing to say the least, but I think it could result in a system that is fair to the minority who declare more than one native language or who declare a native mastery of a language that is not their mother tongue. I've drawn up a rough (very rough) guide (and ye shall all pick holes in it!):
... See more This is a question of terminology, and admittedly the set of 'mother tongue', and 'native', 'bilingual', 'fluent' and 'basic' command, combined with 'first language', 'second language', etc, is a bit confusing to say the least, but I think it could result in a system that is fair to the minority who declare more than one native language or who declare a native mastery of a language that is not their mother tongue. I've drawn up a rough (very rough) guide (and ye shall all pick holes in it!):
The categories (not my own, but as used by an agency I happened across yesterday):
mother tongue: Only one possible, the language you learnt first (and most) as a child and teenager, the formative years, whatever, but there has to be only one, otherwise this system breaks down (yes there will be exceptions again, there always will be).
native (let's call it 'level 1'): In the vast majority of the cases this is your mother tongue. You have absolute command of this language including full ‘control’ and capacity to ‘innovate’ as described by Phil. The vast majority of cases will only have one native language, is my belief.
bilingual ('level 2'): You have far-reaching command of this language, but lack the full ‘control’ and the capacity to ‘innovate’ that the native has.
fluent ('level 3'): You have good command of this language.
basic ('level 4'): You have basic command of this language
In translation practice:
Level 1
Source: Full ('native') comprehension down to the finest nuance and register.
Target: Full ('native') control down to the finest nuance and register and full capacity to innovate.
Level 2
Source: Far-reaching comprehension of nuance and register. May occasionally (if ever) need to consult with a native speaker.
Target: Far-reaching control but lacks full ('native') control and capacity to innovate. Writing (esp. creative writing) will typically be recognisable to level 1 translators as non-native to some degree.
Level 3
Source: Good command of this language but may have difficulties with more complex texts (esp. outside the own field of expertise). Translation may need to be checked by a native speaker of the source.
Target: Good command of this language but writing is clearly non-native (needs thorough editing by a native editor of the target).
Level 4
Source: Basic command of this language, will have difficulty reading complicated texts. May have sufficient command to handle technical documents in their own field of expertise. Translation must be checked by a native speaker of the source.
Target: Don’t do it.
I think such a system would circumvent some of the problems discussed in this forum. Translators can declare a 'native' (level 1) language that is not their 'mother tongue', outsourcers can see at a glance that this is the case and take the necessary steps to affirm that the claim is valid, or look for a mother tongue=level 1 combination if they can't be bothered. Either way, this minority gets at least a chance to participate in the 'native' market without having to resort to lies. (Obviously, outsourcers will not be able to preselect for 'mother tongue', only for 'level of command'; otherwise the whole circus will start again.) As far as I can see it, the only ones who would luck out here are those who declare two (or more!) mother tongues. Umm...
I realise that this is just juggling with terminology to a large degree, but in the spirit of democracy I thought I'd give it a go.
Regards,
Olly
[Edited at 2012-09-22 10:41 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Sweet & simple | Sep 22, 2012 |
Olly Pekelharing wrote:
Level 1
Source: Full ('native') comprehension down to the finest nuance and register.
Target: Full ('native') control down to the finest nuance and register and full capacity to innovate.
Level 2
Source: Far-reaching comprehension of nuance and register. May occasionally (if ever) need to consult with a native speaker.
Target: Far-reaching control but lacks full ('native') control and capacity to innovate. Writing (esp. creative writing) will typically be recognisable to level 1 translators as non-native to some degree.
Level 3
Source: Good command of this language but may have difficulties with more complex texts (esp. outside the own field of expertise). Translation may need to be checked by a native speaker of the source.
Target: Good command of this language but writing is clearly non-native (needs thorough editing by a native editor of the target).
Level 4
Source: Basic command of this language, will have difficulty reading complicated texts. May have sufficient command to handle technical documents in their own field of expertise. Translation must be checked by a native speaker of the source.
Target: Don’t do it.
Olly,
This seems to be a perfectly workable solution. Best of all, it IS possible to test anyone with a multiple-choice questionnaire, and assign them a level in each language.
I would add to Level 4 that such languages might be useful for reference material, when translating at higher levels.
For instance, I wouldn't move my PT+EN from Level 1. However if such a system were implemented, I'd add IT+FR+ES as my Level 4s. Sometimes an EN-PT job client offers me translations available into other languages for reference. I usually welcome them in any of these three, and dismiss them in any other. Having these stated as "Level 4" would save at least two e-mails between us.
The major concern would be translators who achieve NO Level 1 language. (Unfortunately, I get to see their output now and then.) A well-developed test would advise them to go flip burgers or do something else.
| | | | Tony M
France
Local time: 05:52
Member
French to English
+ ...
SITE LOCALIZER | I don't agree | Sep 22, 2012 |
Olly Pekelharing wrote:
Level 1
Source: Full ('native') comprehension down to the finest nuance and register.
Target: Full ('native') control down to the finest nuance and register and full capacity to innovate.
Level 2
Source: Far-reaching comprehension of nuance and register. May occasionally (if ever) need to consult with a native speaker.
Target: Far-reaching control but lacks full ('native') control and capacity to innovate. Writing (esp. creative writing) will typically be recognisable to level 1 translators as non-native to some degree.
...
I think there is an important level missing between #1 and #2 — and it is certainly the one that would apply to me, and I feel sure many others in this thread.
I don't entirely agree with this classification overall, but if it were to be used, then I'd suggest adding:
Level 1a
Source: Far-reaching comprehension of nuance and register. May occasionally (if ever) need to consult with a native speaker.
Target: Full ('native') control down to the finest nuance and register and full capacity to innovate.
This is surely the minimum requirement for a professional translator to produce quality work?
[Edited at 2012-09-22 11:00 GMT]
| | | | | Bernhard, with all my respect, you may agree with many things or not | Sep 22, 2012 |
but it may only have some bearing on the linguistic research -- they may take your suggestions into consideration, to research the issue. As it stands now, based on modern linguistic theories,
someone's native language is also the language the person speaks best and/or uses the most. You cannot create your own definitions and want them to be generally accepted. Of course you could, but only for your own research papers purposes, and for personal use.
Any texts written in En... See more but it may only have some bearing on the linguistic research -- they may take your suggestions into consideration, to research the issue. As it stands now, based on modern linguistic theories,
someone's native language is also the language the person speaks best and/or uses the most. You cannot create your own definitions and want them to be generally accepted. Of course you could, but only for your own research papers purposes, and for personal use.
Any texts written in English (I don't know that much about other languages with respect to that, but I think it might be similar), if intended for publication, or other serious purposes, has to be edited, even if the writer is monolingual. This does not refer just to translation, but to any writing, basically. So, all the forum posts, if they were to comply with the style of a particular paper would have to be edited -- if they were to be turned into articles, not if just quoted, of course. Let's imagine that they are short articles.
I don't know exactly what the problem with the English language from India was here because I did not read all the posts related to it, but you cannot deny anyone calling English their native language based on the fact that the variety is from India, or from somewhere else. Following this trail, people would start denying various local variety's as non-standard. ▲ Collapse
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| And NL TV programs shown on Belgian channels are subtitled | Sep 22, 2012 |
Michele Fauble wrote:
Belgian Dutch TV programs are subtitled in the Netherlands, and European Portuguese TV programs and movies are subtitled in Brazil.
[Edited at 2012-09-21 18:41 GMT]
And vice versa. NL TV programs shown on Dutch language channels in Belgium are often subtitled.
| | | | | @Tony; you've misinterpreted the levels. | Sep 22, 2012 |
The levels can be mixed and matched, so you'd be a level 1 master of your target language and a level 2 master of your source, which, as you say, is the situation that will apply to most of us. However, its easy to imagine situations where other combinations will be asked out of preference or necessity.
Olly
Edit: Sorry that 'level 1 master' sounds like something from a role-playing game. Need alternative terminology.
[Edited at 2012-09-22 11:16 GMT]
| | | | Tony M
France
Local time: 05:52
Member
French to English
+ ...
SITE LOCALIZER | Oh I see now, wasn't clear before! | Sep 22, 2012 |
Olly Pekelharing wrote:
The levels can be mixed and matched, so you'd be a level 1 master of your target language and a level 2 master of your source, which, as you say, is the situation that will apply to most of us.
Oh right, I see now! That wasn't totally clear from the text as quoted by our colleague, perhaps I missed something out of your original post.
All of this analysis is however rather a waste of time, since surely the whole matter rides on how these levels are assessed, and by whom? We've all seen that self-assessment make a mockery of the whole process and leads to lying and misrepresentation — on a staggering level that would scarcely be tolerated in almost any other profession. Just imagine if I set up shop and claimed to be an experienced top hairdresser...!
| | | | | Level this or level that-does it really matter in the end? | Sep 22, 2012 |
Olly Pekelharing wrote:
The levels can be mixed and matched, so you'd be a level 1 master of your target language and a level 2 master of your source, which, as you say, is the situation that will apply to most of us. However, its easy to imagine situations where other combinations will be asked out of preference or necessity.
Olly
Edit: Sorry that 'level 1 master' sounds like something from a role-playing game. Need alternative terminology.
[Edited at 2012-09-22 11:16 GMT]
All is well and good as long as it's not based on self-assessment. Which is what this thread is actually about. Verification by a third party.
Imo I still say a disclaimer by Proz is still the only way to go. That would allow everyone to claim whatever they like on their profile page and life as we know it will just continue. The only difference is that the site will officially state what is currently the case: no native language claims have been verified by them or anyone else. By posting a disclaimer, the truth-stretcher will be personally liable for any problems that may arise from untruthful claims.
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Completely agree. Nothing will stop those with the wrong or misdirected intentions from misusing any system. Just thought I'd have a pop at a more 'open' system.
| | | | Ty Kendall
United Kingdom
Local time: 04:52
Hebrew to English
| Self-assessment will never work | Sep 22, 2012 |
And I don't want a Level 1 language, a Level 2 language or a Level 3, sub-section A of sub-paragraph 5 language, I just want a native language
*I do however think the suggestion is a valiant and worthwhile attempt at solving the problem!
[Edited at 2012-09-22 11:42 GMT]
| | | | | It makes more sense for translation | Sep 22, 2012 |
writeaway wrote:
Level this or level that-does it really matter in the end?
All is well and good as long as it's not based on self-assessment. Which is what this thread is actually about. Verification by a third party.
Imo I still say a disclaimer by Proz is still the only way to go. That would allow everyone to claim whatever they like on their profile page and life as we know it will just continue. The only difference is that the site will officially state what is currently the case: no native language claims have been verified by them or anyone else. By posting a disclaimer, the truth-stretcher will be personally liable for any problems that may arise from untruthful claims.
IMHO this 4-level system makes more sense for translation purposes than the black & white native-or-not concept, which relies on each individual's personal history, and merely increases one's likelihood of attaining a higher level.
I'm not sure testing & certifying translator levels would fit in Proz's core business. Their charter is to offer an organized e-meeting venue for translation clients and providers.
So the 4-level system offers a better framework for self-claims. The original question should be rephrased to whether native claims should be verified by Proz. That's up to Henry and his team to decide, based on their customers' (us = translators) input.
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