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Michael Beijer 
United Kingdom
Local time: 11:34
Member (2009)
Dutch to English
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| change of tack? | Oct 2, 2012 |
Just a thought, but perhaps we ought to switch our focus here from native language verification to English language verification...
Michael
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Lisa Simpson, MCIL wrote: Kirsten Bodart wrote:
We all seem to be ignoring it, as most of this thread seems to be based on English alone. That would be because, astonishingly enough, so far nobody has come up with an example of large numbers of misrepresentation in any other language. In fact I don't think we've had one example. We're still waiting.
Well, see a post of mine somewhere in the mass, from a couple weeks ago, where I was raising my question: "it seems that only English native speakers seem to have an issue with this, no?", taking the exampe of my own native language - French - which is also very spread worldwide and also has multiple regionialisms - and francophones have no similar problems and questions, to my knowldege.
I translate France French and refuses Canada French jobs. Fact. France-French people do not believe that their French is the standard one (fact) despite the fact that we have a conservative, historical institution aimed at protecting the french language: the Académie Francaise. I mean, in light of this, if even the French (known for always complaining ) have no issue there....
Anyway.
| | | | XXXphxxx (X)
United Kingdom
Local time: 11:34
Portuguese to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | English native speakers | Oct 2, 2012 |
Michael Beijer wrote:
Just a thought, but perhaps we ought to switch our focus here from native language verification to English language verification...
Michael
It's mostly what we've been discussing anyway, with resulting accusations of "turf protection", so I'm not sure a change of tack is actually required. I think we're all generally agreed that if verification does take place it makes the most sense to tackle English first.
| | | | XXXphxxx (X)
United Kingdom
Local time: 11:34
Portuguese to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | I don’t understand your point | Oct 2, 2012 |
Anne Diamantidis wrote: Well, see a post of mine somewhere in the mass, from a couple weeks ago, where I was raising my question: "it seems that only English native speakers seem to have an issue with this, no?", taking the exampe of my own native language - French - which is also very spread worldwide and also has multiple regionialisms - and francophones have no similar problems and questions, to my knowldege. I translate France French and refuses Canada French jobs. Fact. France-French people do not believe that their French is the standard one (fact) despite the fact that we have a conservative, historical institution aimed at protecting the french language: the Académie Francaise. I mean, in light of this, if even the French (known for always complaining ) have no issue there.... Anyway.
1) That the French are more tolerant of mass misrepresentation?
2) That no one is in fact trying to pass themselves off as being French?
3) That this English native speaker “misrepresentation” is just a figment of our collective imagination?
If you think this discussion is about protecting UK English as the only global standard then you've completely misunderstood the entire thread.
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| I don't understand this entire thread | Oct 2, 2012 |
Lisa Simpson, MCIL wrote:
1) That the French are more tolerant of mass misrepresentation?
2) That no one is in fact trying to pass themselves off as being French?
3) That this English native speaker “misrepresentation” is just a figment of our collective imagination?
If you think this discussion is about protecting UK English as the only global standard then you've completely misunderstood the entire thread.
You don' have to feel attacked and be defensive right away because that was not the point. I merely re-asked the question I asked on page 150 something of that thread - and never got any reply to - whcih was a genuine question, open to discussion, and similar to yours. I was wondering the same thing than you were, which is "why does it seem (notice the SEEM) that the issue is specific to English ".
I should have said it that way maybe, apologies.
But anyway,
Lisa Simpson, MCIL wrote:
If you think this discussion is about protecting UK English as the only global standard then you've completely misunderstood the entire thread.
Nope I don't think that's the point of the thread. But then, at this point, I don't see the point of this thread at all - some people tried to make themselves heard saying this in the last 180 pages and I agree with them.
So, srry for trying to bring (twice) the perspective of another language (as you asked), I'll let you English native speakers keep fighting between yourselves.
Have fun!
| | | | | You rplied to your own question | Oct 2, 2012 |
Lisa Simpson, MCIL wrote:
2) That no one is in fact trying to pass themselves off as being French?
As far as I know no. So here you go: you replied to our own question (and mine): yes, it does seem in fact that this issue *primarly* concerns English natives.
[Edited at 2012-10-02 14:05 GMT]
| | | | Cetacea
Switzerland
Local time: 12:34
English to German
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| Thanks for a good laugh | Oct 2, 2012 |
Anne Diamantidis wrote:
France-French people do not believe that their French is the standard one.
On behalf of the French-speaking part of Switzerland and my friends in Belgium, thanks very much for a good laugh. You are joking, right? Not only do they believe it's the standard, but they also consider it far superior to any other variant.
But to get back to the topic: Of course the problem mostly concerns the English language, since, like it or not, English has long since replaced French as a global lingua franca.
I admit I didn't quite see the point of this topic way back when the thread was started because I didn't (and actually still don't) think it will solve the problem of bad to simply lousy translations, but the fact remains: You are either a native speaker of a language, or you're not. I happen to be offering translations from German into English for certain kinds of text, but I would never dream of telling potential clients I am a native speaker of English. It would be a lie, plain and simple. But maybe the real reason is that my written output in my specialty areas is good enough to get the jobs by sticking to the truth...
Having said that, I would be all for verification, but I don't think it's ever going to happen. The site would lose too many paying members if misrepresentation actually became a disqualifying factor.
| | | | | mispresentation and its consequences are not a one-language issue | Oct 2, 2012 |
Michael Beijer wrote:
Just a thought, but perhaps we ought to switch our focus here from native language verification to English language verification...
Michael
Any misrepresentation, be it a Dutch person or anybody else claiming English as their native language when it's not reflects bad on the whole site and us.
And it's not just the "native speakers of English" who should be concerned about that.
There are people in any language combination who claim "two" native languages for example. Especially in my pair, English and German, that 's quite a feat if it's true. And I'm not saying it isn't.
But I don't claim English as my native language because it's not. The ones who do claim English and German as their native language do imply that they are more "proficient" in English than I am. It's "implied". And maybe they are. But you see what I mean.
B
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Theo Bernards (X)
France
Local time: 12:34
English to Dutch
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| As a non-native English speaker I 'suffer' from this... | Oct 2, 2012 |
Anne Diamantidis wrote:
... yes, it does seem in fact that this issue *primarly* concerns English natives.
[Edited at 2012-10-02 14:05 GMT]
... because I am pretty convinced I would make a better job of making a Dutch to English translator while being honest about the fact that English is my second language and NOT my native language, than someone who falsely claims that he or she IS a native English speaker and can translate from Dutch. After all, if the claim of being a native English speaker is false, then the source language claim can be equally false. Google Translate, here we come .
And no, I don't agree that this is primarily an issue for those who are native English speakers. In my mother tongue there are two mainstreams: Dutch for The Netherlands and Dutch for Flanders, the Dutch speaking northern half of Belgium. As a Dutch-born (and raised) translator, I recognise pretty fast when a Flemish translator has worked on a text, and any Flemish translator recognises equally fast when I have worked on a text. I am reasonably sure that this also goes for French translators versus Wallonian translators (for the southern part of Belgium), Spanish from Spain versus South-American Spanish and German from Germany versus German from Austria. To name a few...
| | | | | You're welcome | Oct 2, 2012 |
Cetacea wrote: Anne Diamantidis wrote:
France-French people do not believe that their French is the standard one. On behalf of the French-speaking part of Switzerland and my friends in Belgium, thanks very much for a good laugh. You are joking, right? Not only do they believe it's the standard, but they also consider it far superior to any other variant.
Glad I gave you a laugh, though I was dead-serious. I clearly remember at university during our translation MA course teachers telling us that we were to translate into our native language and that its variants - Swiss, Québec, Belgium... - were not our native languages - and none of them ever told us that "our" French was superior to its variants. Same back in school, where I studied "Lettres" and had hours of french courses per weeks, teachers would tell us that France French was just another variant of our language. I never and will never consider "my" French to be standard - when I get job requests into another variant of French, I refuse most of them. If the client insists, I try to get a native of that variant to proofread me and accept all changes and corrections, it's normal.
Seriously, I never heard any French saying that France French was "superior". That's bull***, I'm a bit shocked. Tell them that from me next time you hear such rubbish, please
But yes, let's not stray from topic.
Cheers,
Anne
| | | | Michael Beijer
United Kingdom
Local time: 11:34
Member (2009)
Dutch to English
+ ...
| why only English? | Oct 2, 2012 |
Anne Diamantidis wrote:
(...) I was wondering the same thing than you were, which is "why does it seem (notice the SEEM) that the issue is specific to English ".
For those of us who are wondering why this problem seems to be limited to English, I would repeat what I said a page or two back:
Michael Beijer wrote:
I don't have time to do it at the moment, but it would be interesting to go through the Proz jobs section and have a look at exactly how many jobs are being posted in each language combination and direction. I am only guessing, but I think a connection would be found between these numbers and the problem at hand. That is, I suspect that you might find a purely economic reason for why so many people here are misrepresenting themselves and turning into Language X -> English translators / 'native English speakers' overnight.
Michael
And if we dig a little deeper, I would further suggest that the reason there are (note: I am just guessing here – I haven't checked this!) more translation jobs into English (here on Proz and elsewhere) is that English is one of the world's dominant languages at the moment. Furthermore, since it is such an important language (in the world of business/commerce/entertainment, etc), there are a lot of people who would very much like to be able to speak it properly. Ergo, our current problem.
[Edited at 2012-10-02 14:48 GMT]
| | | | | Would not know about that | Oct 2, 2012 |
Theo Bernards wrote:
I am reasonably sure that this also goes for French translators versus Wallonian translators (for the southern part of Belgium),
I would not know about that. I do not correct Wallonian texts translated by Belgian colleagues because it is not my target language. But yes, I know what you mean, and yes if I read press from Switzerland or Belgium, I do spot differences.
But again, I'd never correct a Wallonian translation. Why would I? My native variant is France. Not Belgium.
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| Well, there you go | Oct 2, 2012 |
Lisa Simpson, MCIL wrote: Kirsten Bodart wrote:
We all seem to be ignoring it, as most of this thread seems to be based on English alone. That would be because, astonishingly enough, so far nobody has come up with an example of large numbers of misrepresentation in any other language. In fact I don't think we've had one example. We're still waiting.
Seems like you have examples now
You're welcome!
| | | | XXXphxxx (X)
United Kingdom
Local time: 11:34
Portuguese to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
The point of the thread has been misunderstood and gone way off topic. The thread was never about variants of languages. I think we're all perfectly aware that there are multiple variants to certain languages, each with its own native speakers. Americans and Brits are both native speakers of English. There's no debate there at all.
| | | | | I did not really know this thread was about being French versus being English, or something else. | Oct 2, 2012 |
I thought it was about language proficiency. At times, I had a feeling that it was more about some ethnic issues. Still, although very interesting, this thread doesn't really make that much sense, I agree.
This thread also shows how different the European system is from American. I cannot imagine any university in the US to teach that people should translate into their native language. What would that mean? Perhaps into their primary language, the language they know the best, but n... See more I thought it was about language proficiency. At times, I had a feeling that it was more about some ethnic issues. Still, although very interesting, this thread doesn't really make that much sense, I agree.
This thread also shows how different the European system is from American. I cannot imagine any university in the US to teach that people should translate into their native language. What would that mean? Perhaps into their primary language, the language they know the best, but not into their native language. This is really unimaginable here, even though it is true that you have to translate into your best language, but it just cannot be presented this way.
[Edited at 2012-10-02 15:18 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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