| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 90 91 92 93 94 95 96 97 98 99 100 101 102 103 104 105 106 107 108 109 110 111 112 113 114 115 116 117 118 119 120 121 122 123 124 125 126 127 128 129 130 131 132 133 134 135 136 137 138 139 140 141 142 143 144 145 146 147 148 149 150 151 152 153 154 155 156 157 158 159 160 161 162 163 164 165 166 167 168 169 170 171 172 173 174 175 176 177 178 179 180 181 182 183] > | Should “native language” claims be verified? Thread poster: XXXphxxx (X)
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| Not bad, but | Jun 23, 2012 |
Samuel Murray wrote:
On the profile page, in the section of native language, let there be a heading
"I regard this language as my native language because:"
Change that to: X language is my native language because:
| | | | Shiya Luo 
Local time: 11:51
English to Chinese
+ ...
| They are not semi-literate natives | Jun 23, 2012 |
Ty Kendall wrote:
This is a non-argument. Semi-literate natives don't tend to become translators or interpreters. Everyone has a native language, whether they are willing to admit it or not. The problem here is that many people have a vested interest in concealing their true native language or flat-out lying. In this case, crime does pay, literally.
They are engineers and researches. Ones who work for tech companies, and write documentations and papers. These documentations become source files for us to translate into another language. If my writing is only comparable to a semi-literate, then so is more than half of the engineers that build your cars, your houses, your cellphones, etc.
Still, I don't think I am lying as being native to my standards (learned English along with Chinese since I was born and educated in English from 10), and I don't think there can be any legal definitions you can find in the US to bring me down.
[Edited at 2012-06-23 17:51 GMT]
| | | | Samuel Murray
Netherlands
Local time: 20:51
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
| @Phil: clear and formal mechanism | Jun 23, 2012 |
Phil Hand wrote:
I think there would have to be a formal, clear mechanism by which second native languages could be accepted.
If we accept that first native language can be declared without any vetting, and that the issue of abuse relates mostly to second native languages, and if "native language" is defined as childhood language, then I have actually thought of an idea that (if it works) would run virtually automatic. It is far from perfect but it will remove many abuses, I hope. It works like this:
1. If a person declares one native language, it is not vetted.
2. If a person declares two native languages, it is only accepted if the person lives in a country where both of his languages are commonly used as native languages (by a sizeable number of speakers).
ProZ.com would then have to make a list against which all second native language declarations are checked. The list would not be set in stone -- anyone who finds that his two languages are not on the list, can ask that it be added, if some proof is given (e.g. Wikipedia reference).
The main problem with this is for people who no longer live in their country of origin. What do you think?
| | | | Ty Kendall
United Kingdom
Local time: 19:51
Hebrew to English
a) I think they just verify them at random. I don't think they care if they offend anyone; paying or otherwise. You are warned when you list a credential that you may be asked to provide supporting evidence at a later date, I see no reason why the same "threat" cannot be used for other fields, including native language.
b) Rare but not non-existent. As I said before, I believe scarcity is only part of the reason why so many non-natives are chosen in these circumstances. In an ide... See more a) I think they just verify them at random. I don't think they care if they offend anyone; paying or otherwise. You are warned when you list a credential that you may be asked to provide supporting evidence at a later date, I see no reason why the same "threat" cannot be used for other fields, including native language.
b) Rare but not non-existent. As I said before, I believe scarcity is only part of the reason why so many non-natives are chosen in these circumstances. In an ideal situation, there'd be an abundance of native speakers with the requisite subject knowledge....but we live in an imperfect world. ▲ Collapse
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Ty Kendall
United Kingdom
Local time: 19:51
Hebrew to English
| Exactly! They are NOT professional writers! | Jun 23, 2012 |
Shiya Luo wrote: Ty Kendall wrote:
This is a non-argument. Semi-literate natives don't tend to become translators or interpreters. Everyone has a native language, whether they are willing to admit it or not. The problem here is that many people have a vested interest in concealing their true native language or flat-out lying. In this case, crime does pay, literally.
They are engineers and researches. Ones who work for tech companies, and write documentations and papers. These documentations become source files for us to translate into another language. If my writing is only comparable to a semi-literate, then so is more than half of the engineers that build your cars, your houses, your cellphones, etc. Still, I don't think I am lying as being native to my standards (learned English along with Chinese since I was born and educated in English from 10), and I don't think there can be any legal definitions you can find in the US to bring me down. [Edited at 2012-06-23 17:51 GMT]
Just because someone has a so-called high-flying career, it doesn't mean they can write!
As I said, the natives whose writing you decry and not writers by profession. Doctors and lawyers are also highly educated, but their writing rarely resembles Shakespeare either!
[Edited at 2012-06-23 17:55 GMT]
| | | | Ty Kendall
United Kingdom
Local time: 19:51
Hebrew to English
Shiya Luo wrote: Ty Kendall wrote:
This is a non-argument. Semi-literate natives don't tend to become translators or interpreters. Everyone has a native language, whether they are willing to admit it or not. The problem here is that many people have a vested interest in concealing their true native language or flat-out lying. In this case, crime does pay, literally.
They are engineers and researches..... These documentations... Still, I don't think I am lying as being native to my standards
No offence, but as Barbara noted earlier and I have highlighted above, your posts contain errors that few natives would make. Therefore it's difficult to agree that your English is on par with your average educated native.
This is a common problem with English in particular. Learning it has a detrimental effect on one's perceptions. People invariably overestimate their own capabilities in the language.
| | | | Shiya Luo
Local time: 11:51
English to Chinese
+ ...
| Better than the current system. | Jun 23, 2012 |
Samuel Murray wrote:
Here is another suggestion for the problem (let me know what you think of it):
On the profile page, in the section of native language, let there be a heading "I regard this language as my native language because:" with a series of checkboxes such as "It is my childhood language", "I am highly competent in it", "I have lived in this country for most of my life", "Prefer not to answer", etc.
Then at least a client who visits the translator's profile page can see if his definition of "native speaker" is the same as the translator's. Translators who want to lie about it will still lie about it, but those who want to be honest can do so without having to give up the status of "native language".
I agree with this suggestion, it is better than the system we have right now.
However, in my case. English is my childhood language (learned since birth), I am highly competent in it (I believe?), and I have also lived in this country for most of my life. Yet many peers still try to tell me that it is not my native language, simply because I have another native language.
Should I be taken away the luxury of two native languages? Then again, should anyone be granted the privilege of declaring two native languages?
| | | | Samuel Murray
Netherlands
Local time: 20:51
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
| @Ty and Shiya, re: credential verification | Jun 23, 2012 |
Ty Kendall wrote: Shiya Luo wrote: Ty Kendall wrote:
a) I don't think we need to define what a "native language" is. "Credentials" can also be interpreted in many different ways and can mean different things to different people, yet ProZ still verifies these according to their own definition. a) The way I see it, ProZ verifies them only when most paying members (serious translators) would not be put off and leave the site. a) I think they just verify them at random. I don't think they care if they offend anyone; paying or otherwise.
I don't think one should compare credential verification with native language verification:
* Neither verified nor unverified credentials have any effect in directory search results, but native language has a very large effect -- it is the 4th option in a list of 19.
*Credentials are verified non-subjectively -- it would not be unlikely that all verifiers will reach the same conclusion about a credential if they follow the same procedure, but with native language verification different verifiers might come to different conclusions.
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Ty Kendall
United Kingdom
Local time: 19:51
Hebrew to English
| For a professional site, how about striving for professional standards.. | Jun 23, 2012 |
Both the ATA and the ITI endorse the "native only" approach and the existence of a native language.
To empower translators and interpreters around the world...As ATA President Marian S. Greenfield notes, “If we specialize, translate into our native language, and charge accordingly, we can all harness the global marketplace to find the best clients
http://www.atanet.org/chronicle/feature_article_may2007.php
Professional translators work into their native language
http://www.iti.org.uk/pdfs/trans/GIR_english.pdf
If neither we nor ProZ can decide on these issues, why don't we look to the main professional bodies for guidance.....??
| | | | XXXphxxx (X)
United Kingdom
Local time: 19:51
Portuguese to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | The number is irrelevant | Jun 23, 2012 |
Shiya Luo wrote:
Yet many peers still try to tell me that it is not my native language, simply because I have another native language.
Please understand that this is not because of the number of native languages you claim to have, only that English is not one of them. I don't wish to offend, this just goes to illustrate the fact that people are often not aware themselves, but better to be told by your peers than by an angry client who might withhold payment or threaten legal action.
| | | | | Why do you care | Jun 23, 2012 |
I don't understand why you really care what somebody's native language is. If they are lying, and they are not absolutely proficient in that language, they will not get paid for the job, even if they got it, and spent hours working on it. So what is really the problem? I don't see any.
| | | | Shiya Luo
Local time: 11:51
English to Chinese
+ ...
| This is probably off topic, but | Jun 23, 2012 |
Ty Kendall wrote:
Just because someone has a so-called high-flying career, it doesn't mean they can write!
As I said, the natives whose writing you decry and not writers by profession. Doctors and lawyers are also highly educated, but their writing rarely resembles Shakespeare either!
[Edited at 2012-06-23 17:55 GMT]
Should medical papers be written by doctors, patent documents be written by lawyers? No? Same goes with translations, I don't think simply being a great writer can produce competent medical or patent translations.
What I have seen in the translations I have came across, was many native speakers produce incorrect translations when they don't understand the material. Same probably occurs in medical and legal fields.
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Samuel Murray
Netherlands
Local time: 20:51
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
| The problem with forum posts | Jun 23, 2012 |
B D Finch wrote: Shiya Luo wrote:
In a nationality point of view, I would not come close to qualify as a native, since I have not obtained permanent resident status in any English speaking country, despite I have not lived in China for more than half of my life.
I received English based bilingual education ever since I was 10 upon moving to Singapore, before that my home education came from my parents where I was learning languages 95% of the time, both English and Chinese. Corrected version: From the point of view of nationality, I would not even come close to qualifying as a native, since I have not obtained permanent resident status in any English speaking country, in spite of the fact that I have not lived in China for more than half my life.
From the age of ten, I had a bilingual, English-based education, after having moved to Singapore. Before that my parents educated me at home and 95% of the time was spent learning languages, both English and Chinese.
The problem with using forum posts as a measure of nativeness (or indeed as a measure of skill) is that forum posts (like many other internet forms of communication) are often written in haste, are written informally, are edited on the go, and are proofread half-heartedly (if at all).
The way I write forum posts (even in my native language) is very different from the way I would write a letter to e.g. the editor of a newspaper, or even to my mother. I'm confident that many native speakers would fail an exam if their forum posts were used to judge their language skills.
I also think that the "corrected version" above is over-corrected. Not all of the corrections relate to objective errors. Here is my corrected version:
[From] (not "in") a nationality point of view, I would not come close to [qualifying] (not "qualify", although many people actually speak that way) as a native, since I have not obtained permanent resident status in any English speaking country, despite [the fact that] I have not lived in China for more than half of my life.
I received English based bilingual education ever since I was 10[,] upon moving to Singapore, [and] before that my home education came from my parents[,] where I was learning languages 95% of the time, both English and Chinese.
The writing certainly contains poor style, but it is perfectly good English for the most part. There is a bit of confusion about what "where I was learning" relates to, but on second read I assume it relates to "home", which makes it a typical write-the-way-you-speak type of sentence, and certainly very bad style, but not in any way undeniably non-native. To "receive" education is common in English even if it is not "good English". The only error in it that might indicate non-nativeness is the use of "in" instead of "from", although even that is not 100% certain. If this is the kind of verification that awaits native speakers, then deity help us all.
| | | | Phil Hand
China
Local time: 02:51
Chinese to English
That's a decent idea.
Like you say there is a category of bilinguals who'd be frustrated by this: say a Swiss guy who really is native in French and German, but who lives in Spain.
OK, so ideas now on the table are:
1) Lisa's: One native language, no checks. Anyone who wants a second native language must apply. They must make forum and Kudoz posts, on which voting buttons will appear. If they get lots of yes votes, they get their second native language sta... See more That's a decent idea.
Like you say there is a category of bilinguals who'd be frustrated by this: say a Swiss guy who really is native in French and German, but who lives in Spain.
OK, so ideas now on the table are:
1) Lisa's: One native language, no checks. Anyone who wants a second native language must apply. They must make forum and Kudoz posts, on which voting buttons will appear. If they get lots of yes votes, they get their second native language status.
2) Charlie's: All native languages are open to challenge, and must be demonstrated to Proz staff if challenged (by X people) (in Y amount of time).
3) Samuel's: One native language, no checks. Second native language granted only if resident where the second language is spoken.
Any more for any more? ▲ Collapse
| | | | Robert Forstag
United States
Local time: 14:51
Spanish to English
+ ...
| The introduction of a "button" for reporting apparent bogus native-language claims is a non-starter | Jun 23, 2012 |
...because I think that staff would take the view that the mere existence of such a button would create something of a hostile climate on the site. I myself would tend to agree with such an objection.
In my view, all the talk of buttons, votes, documentation, verification of credentials (what next?, a Council of Elders?) etc. unnecessarily complicates matters. Simply allow individuals to privately alert staff to blatant instances of misrepresentation, and trust (for, in the end, tr... See more ...because I think that staff would take the view that the mere existence of such a button would create something of a hostile climate on the site. I myself would tend to agree with such an objection.
In my view, all the talk of buttons, votes, documentation, verification of credentials (what next?, a Council of Elders?) etc. unnecessarily complicates matters. Simply allow individuals to privately alert staff to blatant instances of misrepresentation, and trust (for, in the end, trust we must) that staff will take appropriate action.
This seems the elegant solution, and one hard for staff to reject on the grounds that it is too difficult to implement or that it somehow violates the professional integrity and dignity of site users/members.
In the best-case scenario, we are not dealing with an entity that has exactly shown itself to be highly responsive to suggestions for site improvement. By proferring complicated and unworkable solutions (especially those that would have an adverseimpact on the site's bottom line) one simply gives proz.com a legitimate excuse to refuse to take action.
[Edited at 2012-06-24 13:18 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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