| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 90 91 92 93 94 95 96 97 98 99 100 101 102 103 104 105 106 107 108 109 110 111 112 113 114 115 116 117 118 119 120 121 122 123 124 125 126 127 128 129 130 131 132 133 134 135 136 137 138 139 140 141 142 143 144 145 146 147 148 149 150 151 152 153 154 155 156 157 158 159 160 161 162 163 164 165 166 167 168 169 170 171 172 173 174 175 176 177 178 179 180 181 182 183] > | Should “native language” claims be verified? Thread poster: XXXphxxx (X)
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S E (X)
Italy
Local time: 17:58
Italian to English
Sheila Wilson wrote:
At the moment on my profile page, it says "Native in: English N " - with the N circled in yellow.
I just think the "N" itself is redundant - it's said in words that this is my native language. Why not simply change as follows:
yellow-circled N ---> V (plus circle, colour, whatever you like, with an explanation that V=verified)
grey-circled N ---> R (with an explanation that R=Reported)
Doesn't solve any of the other problems, but it does make things a little clearer and paves the way for the day when there may actually be fewer reported and more verified native languages.
I can't imagine that would be at all difficult to implement (and I started as a programmer back in the days of batch runs, cards and dumps).
Sheila
This with the explanation appearing in a box that appears when you hover over the icons would, I think, be excellent and a tremendous improvement.
Nice!
| | | | | Icons or words... | Jul 4, 2012 |
I personally don´t care about the form a native language appears in everybody´s profile page. But I think it is important that non-native speakers *don´t appear* in the directory list when a client clearly is looking for a native speaker (among other criteria). If it was possible to exclude all grey icons, unverified native language etc. in the directory search, it would be fine for me. Only verified native speakers should appear in that list, the same way certain translators don´t appear in... See more I personally don´t care about the form a native language appears in everybody´s profile page. But I think it is important that non-native speakers *don´t appear* in the directory list when a client clearly is looking for a native speaker (among other criteria). If it was possible to exclude all grey icons, unverified native language etc. in the directory search, it would be fine for me. Only verified native speakers should appear in that list, the same way certain translators don´t appear in the results list if their specialty doesn´t match with what the client is looking for.
I think clients look at the directory first and later at the profiles. By excluding possible false claims in the search, they won´t be wasting their time reading the wrong profiles. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Phil Hand 
China
Local time: 23:58
Chinese to English
| I'm not against anyone being what they want to be... | Jul 4, 2012 |
...but why should they be allowed to redefine "native speaker" for the rest of us?
OK, I read too much news. Anyone who doesn't follow America's culture wars obsessively should be mystified.
Charlie Bavington wrote:
there would need to be non-existent give and take.
We give of the sweat of our brows and they take the piss...? Is that not what you were thinking of?
Why do dabblers on a professional website, need protecting?
No, we need protecting from them. If they are dabblers, then no in-site threat can possibly have any teeth, and so they are free to claim whatever they want. And that means that with any let-em-in-then-shoot-em-down approach, there will always be a pool of people who continue to make untrue claims.
I think we have to choose one of two options - either go to a fully two-speed model, where red splodge Pros are verified to the hilt, and we just let the proles do whatever they want; or we try to stop the rot before it starts. I don't think any "clean-up" measures (or threats of clean-up measures) are going to be effective in the long term.
| | | | S E (X)
Italy
Local time: 17:58
Italian to English
| 'verified native language'-only searches | Jul 4, 2012 |
Hi Nani,
I agree and suggested as much above.
Just as clients can limit their searches to 'verified language credential'-only results etc., etc.), so should they be able to limit their searches to 'verified native language'-only results.
Sarah
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Phil Hand
China
Local time: 23:58
Chinese to English
| I've got nothing | Jul 4, 2012 |
Robert Forstag wrote:
What has been the response? Have claimed native languages been removed? Or, on the contrary, upheld? Promises to review the matter at some later date? Set up blue-ribbon panels to make recommendations? What?
A request from Lucia last week for further information, then radio silence. No change on the profile of the poor soul I picked on.
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I have read your suggestions, and they are indeed not bad at all. But I was thinking of something more automatic. I mean that the directory search should automatically consider a native language only once it has been verified (this would automatically happen in case one only reports one native language). So it is easier for the clients when they make a search.
[Edited at 2012-07-04 14:16 GMT]
| | | | | Why would people lie about their native languages? | Jul 4, 2012 |
Why would people lie about their native languages? I don't see any logic behind this other than being allowed to bid on jobs they think they could do. They pay the fees -- maybe there are not enough jobs for non-native speakers and they want to bid on something they are convinced they could do. I personally see no other reason. They should not be portrayed as really evil beings, although I am against lying, but this might not really be lying, but a different idea of a native language in 90% of c... See more Why would people lie about their native languages? I don't see any logic behind this other than being allowed to bid on jobs they think they could do. They pay the fees -- maybe there are not enough jobs for non-native speakers and they want to bid on something they are convinced they could do. I personally see no other reason. They should not be portrayed as really evil beings, although I am against lying, but this might not really be lying, but a different idea of a native language in 90% of case. ▲ Collapse
| | | | BeaDeer (X)
English to Slovenian
+ ...
Nani Delgado wrote:
... it is important that non-native speakers *don´t appear* in the directory list when a client clearly is looking for a native speaker (among other criteria).
... Only verified native speakers should appear in that list, the same way certain translators don´t appear in the results list if their speciality doesn´t match with what the client is looking for.
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| To be convinced that you can perform a certain job doesn´t mean that you actually can. | Jul 4, 2012 |
LilianBoland wrote:
Why would people lie about their native languages? I don't see any logic behind this other than being allowed to bid on jobs they think they could do. They pay the fees -- maybe there are not enough jobs for non-native speakers and they want to bid on something they are convinced they could do. I personally see no other reason. They should not be portrayed as really evil beings, although I am against lying, but this might not really be lying, but a different idea of a native language in 90% of case.
No, Lilian, I completely disagree with you. If you are convinced you can translate from language X into language Y (being X your real native language), then please feel free to say so in the "About me" section of your profile. But the fact that you are convinced that you can perform a certain job *doesn´t* make you a native speaker either.
Many people here tend to overestimate themselves, really, really. I don´t want to point at anybody but... really, many people here on Proz - even in this thread - overestimate themselves. They claiming to be able to perform X means nothing to me, specially when you are reading and seeing that this claim is totally false and totally exaggerated. And it means even less when they are the ones damaging the credibility of proz.com and therefore my own credibility. You care about your purse? Me too. But I am honest and professional in doing so.
[Edited at 2012-07-04 13:44 GMT]
| | | | Michael Beijer
United Kingdom
Local time: 16:58
Member (2009)
Dutch to English
+ ...
LilianBoland wrote:
Why would people lie about their native languages? I don't see any logic behind this other than being allowed to bid on jobs they think they could do. They pay the fees -- maybe there are not enough jobs for non-native speakers and they want to bid on something they are convinced they could do. I personally see no other reason. They should not be portrayed as really evil beings, although I am against lying, but this might not really be lying, but a different idea of a native language in 90% of case.
Why?
1. Because they want clients to think that they are native speakers of the language in question.
2. Because they actually think (hope?) that they speak/write/read it fluently.
I agree that these people are not ‘evil beings’, however, if someone states that their native language is, say, English, and everything they write is full of errors (non-native speaker errors or otherwise), shouldn't they perhaps refrain from stating that English is their native language in their profile?
Michael
| | | | XXXphxxx (X)
United Kingdom
Local time: 16:58
Portuguese to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | An amendment to a previous post | Jul 4, 2012 |
I had previously said:
2) In most cases one would be able to spot a non-native speaker of one’s own language at a hundred paces.
I would now like to edit that to say:
2) In most cases one would be able to spot a non-native speaker of one’s own language (and even someone else’s native language) at a hundred paces.
| | | | | Refrain altogether from listing a native language that isn't one's actual native language | Jul 4, 2012 |
Michael Beijer wrote:
I agree that these people are not ‘evil beings’, however, if someone states that their native language is, say, English, and everything they write is full of errors (non-native speaker errors or otherwise), shouldn't they perhaps refrain from stating that English is their native language in their profile?
Michael
I think all people should refrain altogether from posting fraudulent native language claims.
Use the "About me' space to claim native proficiency or whatever but do not post as native language a language acquired at school or elsewhere. The people making bogus native language claims may not be evil but they are dishonest and committing fraud.
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Neptunia
Local time: 17:58
Italian to English
| 8.6: a starting point | Jul 4, 2012 |
If you click the N-icon and try to find out what it means, it eventually leads you to section 8.6 (see below) of the ProZ Native Speaker Credential info page where essentially anything goes as far as a definition of "native language." Shouldn't the first step in the process of reducing fraudulent claims to native speaker status be about asking for a change to 8.6 so that it states an actual definition? As it stands, verifying or challenging something that has been deliberately left completely u... See more If you click the N-icon and try to find out what it means, it eventually leads you to section 8.6 (see below) of the ProZ Native Speaker Credential info page where essentially anything goes as far as a definition of "native language." Shouldn't the first step in the process of reducing fraudulent claims to native speaker status be about asking for a change to 8.6 so that it states an actual definition? As it stands, verifying or challenging something that has been deliberately left completely undefined would be hard to do even for the clear cut cases. I particularly liked the linguistics definition that came up earlier.
"8.6 - What definition of "native speaker" is used? [Direct link]
Rather than imposing a definition of "native", the PNS program leaves the definition to members. When declaring one's own single language, a definition is not required." ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Wishful thinking becomes (virtual) reality: a knock-on effect? | Jul 4, 2012 |
All this discussion and the comments about the colour-coded symbols next to the profile page language claims seems to have spurred at least one colleague to take action.
Before there were 2 (grey) native language claims (one for the actual native language, one for English) but the problem has now been resolved. Now there is only one native language claim in bright blue/yellow (so looking very official). And guess what, it's NOT for the actual native language, but the person has used the sy... See more All this discussion and the comments about the colour-coded symbols next to the profile page language claims seems to have spurred at least one colleague to take action.
Before there were 2 (grey) native language claims (one for the actual native language, one for English) but the problem has now been resolved. Now there is only one native language claim in bright blue/yellow (so looking very official). And guess what, it's NOT for the actual native language, but the person has used the system to become a native English speaker only! In the click of a mouse.
It's (still) that simple apparently. Faster than Dorthy's red slippers! Wishful thinking turned into virtual reality. Sure to fool as many people as the Emperor's New Clothes. Storybook fantasy all......... ▲ Collapse
| | | | | school certificate | Jul 4, 2012 |
Wouldn't a high school diploma/O-levels, A-levels/school leaving certificate etc. be sufficient proof that a person has successfully passed through the school system of a given country (presumably including basic, compulsory language education), and therefore in all likelihood has a "native" command of the relevant language?
A scanned copy of such a certificate (dating from the translator's school years) would seem to offer reasonable assurance that a person's claims to native level... See more Wouldn't a high school diploma/O-levels, A-levels/school leaving certificate etc. be sufficient proof that a person has successfully passed through the school system of a given country (presumably including basic, compulsory language education), and therefore in all likelihood has a "native" command of the relevant language?
A scanned copy of such a certificate (dating from the translator's school years) would seem to offer reasonable assurance that a person's claims to native level skill are justified.
True bilinguals and people with itinerant childhoods might have to come up with something extra, but at least it would be an easy method to verify most claims.
Just an idea, not that I really care about this issue 
s ▲ Collapse
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