| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 90 91 92 93 94 95 96 97 98 99 100 101 102 103 104 105 106 107 108 109 110 111 112 113 114 115 116 117 118 119 120 121 122 123 124 125 126 127 128 129 130 131 132 133 134 135 136 137 138 139 140 141 142 143 144 145 146 147 148 149 150 151 152 153 154 155 156 157 158 159 160 161 162 163 164 165 166 167 168 169 170 171 172 173 174 175 176 177 178 179 180 181 182 183] > | Should “native language” claims be verified? Thread poster: XXXphxxx (X)
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Paul Stevens 
Local time: 06:44
Member (2003)
Spanish to English
+ ...
| The silence is deafening | Jun 22, 2012 |
Nearly 5 pages of interesting deabte/comments and, so far, not a single comment from a member of proz staff. Speaks volumes and seems remarkably similar to the site's stance on various threads re KudoZ abuse.
| | | | Samuel Murray
Netherlands
Local time: 07:44
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
Sheila Wilson wrote:
What struck me then was the really great command they had of spoken English, at every level of society, but with a way of saying things that was uniquely Dutch. ... Now that my main contact is with Dutch-produced written English, I agree: not only is it uniquely Dutch-English, it is also downright wrong when you put it down on paper.
I think its easier to fake spoken language than written language. When I first came to Holland I got compliments about how good my Dutch was, when in fact I was simply speaking Afrikaans with a fake accent, peppered with common Dutch politeness phrases, and lots of gestures and nodding, some deliberate mumbling, and overuse of synonyms. As soon as I committed to paper, the wheels came off and no-one could understand what I wrote.
| | | | Phil Hand
China
Local time: 13:44
Chinese to English
| No system is perfect. What's our objective here? | Jun 22, 2012 |
Samuel Murray wrote:
To circumvent: simply declare the country in which you studied as your second native language, and the other language as your first native language.
That's true, the mechanism I proposed is not perfect. The question is what do we want to do? (A) whinge because our own preferred idea hasn't been taken up by Proz, or (B) present to Proz an idea that will improve the situation and is actually workable.
Paul Stevens wrote:
Nearly 5 pages of interesting deabte/comments and, so far, not a single comment from a member of proz staff. Speaks volumes and seems remarkably similar to the site's stance on various threads re KudoZ abuse.
Site staff are not obligated to respond to every rant we post. As Charlie pointed out, this is an intrinsically hard question. Members (like Gitte above) do not wish to be put through additional checks; Proz does not have the manpower to vet every member. But there does appear to be some abuse of the "English is my native language" option. I'm sure the staff have thought about this question.
If we could agree on an idea (like the version I outlined above) and put it to the site, they could consider it. In the meantime, I hope the site employees have better things to do than join in our bitching threads.
| | | | Paul Stevens
Local time: 06:44
Member (2003)
Spanish to English
+ ...
| "Bitching" threads? | Jun 22, 2012 |
Phil Hand wrote: Paul Stevens wrote:
Nearly 5 pages of interesting deabte/comments and, so far, not a single comment from a member of proz staff. Speaks volumes and seems remarkably similar to the site's stance on various threads re KudoZ abuse. Site staff are not obligated to respond to every rant we post. As Charlie pointed out, this is an intrinsically hard question. Members (like Gitte above) do not wish to be put through additional checks; Proz does not have the manpower to vet every member. But there does appear to be some abuse of the "English is my native language" option. I'm sure the staff have thought about this question. If we could agree on an idea (like the version I outlined above) and put it to the site, they could consider it. In the meantime, I hope the site employees have better things to do than join in our bitching threads.
I wouldn't call this thread a "rant" or "bitching" and so far we have not had even an acknowledgement from any staff member of the important issues raised. I wasn't particualrly expecting one, but it does say quite a lot if no site member can even be bothered to comment after 5 pages of posts...
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Nicole Schnell
United States
Local time: 22:44
English to German
+ ...
In memoriam | Reply by staff members | Jun 22, 2012 |
Paul Stevens wrote:
so far we have not had even an acknowledgement from any staff member of the important issues raised. I wasn't particualrly expecting one, but it does say quite a lot if no site member can even be bothered to comment after 5 pages of posts...
They are US-based, remember? Right now it is 3am at the East Coast and midnight here at the West Coast.
| | | | XXXphxxx (X)
United Kingdom
Local time: 06:44
Portuguese to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | Over-egging the pudding | Jun 22, 2012 |
I think we’re complicating issues a little here. I don’t see any need for birth certificates or such like. I envisage a scenario where we have one native language each, that’s it, if someone is quite insistent that they have a second then that can go for review to ProZ and criteria can be established for ascertaining the validity of the claim. There will always be a few who slip through the net (the NL/DE natives claiming EN as their native language), but this would deal with the bulk of t... See more I think we’re complicating issues a little here. I don’t see any need for birth certificates or such like. I envisage a scenario where we have one native language each, that’s it, if someone is quite insistent that they have a second then that can go for review to ProZ and criteria can be established for ascertaining the validity of the claim. There will always be a few who slip through the net (the NL/DE natives claiming EN as their native language), but this would deal with the bulk of the problems. An alternative to ProZ (the "manpower") vetting the second native language would be a peer review system whereby they submit an application for the second native and their colleagues can over a 3-month period (for the sake of argument) click on a button under their name to vote on whether they pass the test or not. I see minimum administration in that.
I certainly do not view this site as having any quality stamp, I have other sites for that but standards are getting/have got so low here that many have and will be pulling out for fear of being associated with it. ▲ Collapse
| | | | KKastenhuber
Austria
Local time: 07:44
Russian to German
+ ...
| still problematic | Jun 22, 2012 |
Phil Hand wrote:
To summarise the three suggestions I've seen in this thread:
3) Proz staff verify all second native languages
(3) seems close to workable to me.
This still doesn't solve the problem of what constitutes a (second) native language.
Just yesterday I met a translation student who is a German native born and raised in Germany, but with an Arabic speaking father. When I asked him "So you have two native languages then?" he replied, "I have a mother tongue and a father tongue. My German is better than my Arabic, though." Would he be allowed to have two native languages in his profile? Where do you draw the line? When is a translator "native enough" to be allowed to put it in his/her profile?
I don't think there's a feasible way to control abuse of the native language option other than the market regulating itself. People who translate into a fake native language and do so as horribly as has been described surely shouldn't be able to hold a good reputation for long?
| | | | Samuel Murray
Netherlands
Local time: 07:44
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
| What is wrong with the current procedures? | Jun 22, 2012 |
Lisa Simpson, MCIL wrote:
I envisage a scenario where we have one native language each, that’s it, if someone is quite insistent that they have a second then that can go for review to ProZ and criteria can be established for ascertaining the validity of the claim.
But isn't that exactly how it is at this time? Has anyone here bothered to read ProZ.com's policy on multiple native languages? It is here:
http://www.proz.com/faq/764#764
It says that if you declare one native language, no verification is required, but if you declare more than one, then ProZ.com will evaluate it with the help of other native speakers. What is interesting is that ProZ.com evaluates the nativeness based on speech, not writing. In other words, you would have to have a conversation with other native speakers and they would then judge whether they regard you as native or not. This is very subjective, but it is actually closer to the meaning that most people have of the word "native" than any academic credential might give.
The language used in that policy indicates that this policy hasn't really been put into practice yet, but let's first ask whether this policy (if put into practice) would be good or bad, and if bad, then why.
Added: it would be interesting to help test such a system, i.e. I would like to volunteer to be tested for nativeness of English (which I do not currently declare as my native language), to see kinds of reports that would generate.
[Edited at 2012-06-22 08:03 GMT]
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Phil Hand
China
Local time: 13:44
Chinese to English
| Not perfect, just better | Jun 22, 2012 |
KKastenhuber wrote:
"This still doesn't solve the problem of what constitutes a (second) native language."
We're not trying to do that. This isn't an academic linguistics issue. This is an attempt to respond to a large number of cases of misrepresentation by colleagues (I use the term advisedly) on this website.
"I don't think there's a feasible way to control abuse of the native language option other than the market regulating itself."
What do you t... See more KKastenhuber wrote:
"This still doesn't solve the problem of what constitutes a (second) native language."
We're not trying to do that. This isn't an academic linguistics issue. This is an attempt to respond to a large number of cases of misrepresentation by colleagues (I use the term advisedly) on this website.
"I don't think there's a feasible way to control abuse of the native language option other than the market regulating itself."
What do you think market regulation mechanisms look like? We're it. Neither Lisa nor I nor Jared from Proz is prime minister. We, who constitute a part of "the market", make decisions about the way in which we want information about translators to be presented. If Proz agrees, then we put that decision into effect here. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Paul Stevens
Local time: 06:44
Member (2003)
Spanish to English
+ ...
Nicole Schnell wrote: Paul Stevens wrote:
so far we have not had even an acknowledgement from any staff member of the important issues raised. I wasn't particualrly expecting one, but it does say quite a lot if no site member can even be bothered to comment after 5 pages of posts... They are US-based, remember? Right now it is 3am at the East Coast and midnight here at the West Coast.
Yes, I'm well aware that they are US-based, but the majority of posts on this thread were made yesterday.
| | | | XXXphxxx (X)
United Kingdom
Local time: 06:44
Portuguese to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Samuel Murray wrote: Lisa Simpson, MCIL wrote:
I envisage a scenario where we have one native language each, that’s it, if someone is quite insistent that they have a second then that can go for review to ProZ and criteria can be established for ascertaining the validity of the claim. But isn't that exactly how it is at this time? Has anyone here bothered to read ProZ.com's policy on multiple native languages? It is here: http://www.proz.com/faq/764#764 It says that if you declare one native language, no verification is required, but if you declare more than one, then ProZ.com will evaluate it with the help of other native speakers. What is interesting is that ProZ.com evaluates the nativeness based on speech, not writing. In other words, you would have to have a conversation with other native speakers and they would then judge whether they regard you as native or not. This is very subjective, but it is actually closer to the meaning that most people have of the word "native" than any academic credential might give. The language used in that policy indicates that this policy hasn't really been put into practice yet, but let's first ask whether this policy (if put into practice) would be good or bad, and if bad, then why. Added: it would be interesting to help test such a system, i.e. I would like to volunteer to be tested for nativeness of English (which I do not currently declare as my native language), to see kinds of reports that would generate. [Edited at 2012-06-22 08:03 GMT]
Barely anyone on the site knows the difference between a yellow or grey icon and certainly outsourcers don't. It is utterly meaningless. On the basis of the test they are proposing I would no doubt be classified as a native speaker in Portuguese and French, which would be a joke.
| | | | KKastenhuber
Austria
Local time: 07:44
Russian to German
+ ...
Phil Hand wrote:
What do you think market regulation mechanisms look like? We're it. Neither Lisa nor I nor Jared from Proz is prime minister. We, who constitute a part of "the market", make decisions about the way in which we want information about translators to be presented. If Proz agrees, then we put that decision into effect here.
Obviously when I said that it's still problematic to define what a real second native language is, I didn't mean an academic definition but one that serves the purpose of implementing a control mechanism on ProZ. Just because we're dealing with the issue for a practical reason, doesn't mean we don't have to find certain criteria.
And I think market regulation mechanisms usually involve mostly buyers' opinions and not exclusively fellow producers'.
[Edited at 2012-06-22 09:12 GMT]
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Ty Kendall
United Kingdom
Local time: 06:44
Hebrew to English
| Developing a strategy.....When? | Jun 22, 2012 |
I have just learnt from Samuel's link that ProZ are allegedly developing a strategy "now":
We are developing a strategy now.
They also seem to hint at the possibility that a fee might be paid in order to cover the cost of verifying additional "native" languages:
It has not yet been determined whether a fee will be necessary for the verfication procedure involved for those who declare multiple languages.
....which I'm not complaining about, I actually think this is a good idea.
So perhaps it is about time that site staff waded in and updated us as to the situation of the strategy development.
So, I'd like to ask ProZ:
●How far along are you (ProZ) in developing this strategy?
●Does your strategy resemble any of those proposed here?
●Any ideas about when it might be implemented or even just trialled?
I have to agree with Lisa that the current system of yellow and grey icons just passes under everyone's radar. It's meaningless.
| | | | Samuel Murray
Netherlands
Local time: 07:44
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
| The yellow and grey icons | Jun 22, 2012 |
Lisa Simpson, MCIL wrote: Barely anyone on the site knows the difference between a yellow or grey icon and certainly outsourcers don't. It is utterly meaningless.
I think you're moving the goal posts here. The grey and yellow icons are just a tiny aspect of ProZ.com's native language credential. One can (and should) judge ProZ.com's proposed system without having to evaluate anything about the coloured icons.
Besides, you won't see the grey icon unless you also see the yellow icon, so anyone looking at the languages will see that there are two distinctly different icons. Whether these icons will have any meaning for them applies to all other icons on the site as well.
On the basis of the test they are proposing I would no doubt be classified as a native speaker in Portuguese and French...
I'm sure there would be ways in which to supplement their proposal with ways to reduce the false positive that you would be one of.
Let's not forget that ProZ.com has no fixed definition of "native language". The dictionary definition is not really useful (i.e. a language that a person has spoken from earliest childhood). Anyway, applying the dictionary meaning would be nearly impossible -- the only practical way to judge native language is on the person's current proficiency. What is your definition of it, Lisa? Do you know what my definition of it is (and if not, how can you tell if I'm telling the truth about it)?
| | | | XXXphxxx (X)
United Kingdom
Local time: 06:44
Portuguese to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | Are we not splitting hairs here? | Jun 22, 2012 |
My loose definition is as described by Tom at the start of this thread. Of course there are going to be exceptions, there always are in life, we all accept that, but rather than focusing on this vanishingly small number of exceptions it would be more constructive for the purposes of this argument to focus on the rest.
As for the icons, there are two grey icons in a couple of profiles I happen to have glanced at in the last 24 hours so I'm not sure what you mean.
| | | | | Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 90 91 92 93 94 95 96 97 98 99 100 101 102 103 104 105 106 107 108 109 110 111 112 113 114 115 116 117 118 119 120 121 122 123 124 125 126 127 128 129 130 131 132 133 134 135 136 137 138 139 140 141 142 143 144 145 146 147 148 149 150 151 152 153 154 155 156 157 158 159 160 161 162 163 164 165 166 167 168 169 170 171 172 173 174 175 176 177 178 179 180 181 182 183] > | To report site rules violations or get help, contact a site moderator: You can also contact site staff by submitting a support request » Should “native language” claims be verified? | CafeTran Espresso | You've never met a CAT tool this clever!
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