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XXXphxxx (X) 
United Kingdom
Local time: 07:59
Portuguese to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | Yeah but, no but, yeah but... | Sep 30, 2012 |
Charlie Bavington wrote: Lisa Simpson, MCIL wrote:
Proficiency in all your languages is a given, or at least it should be. Having to underline this smacks of protesting too much.
Should be. But isn't on here. Which is why you started the thread, is it not? After reading one too many crappy profiles from people who claimed to be native English speakers but without any discernible proficiency in English.
Yes.
The people you and I are thinking of don't come into this "native-level proficiency" (hereinafter NLP) discussion. As for the genuinely proficient ones, I'm not sure what the NLP label will bring to the party. Say we have José, Mr B and Samuel in that category. What will happen to José's chances of getting PT > EN work now he's no longer a "native speaker", and will Mr B and Samuel's chances increase (bearing in mind they already translate in that direction anyway)? Will they actually be better off than the rest of the proletarians who aren't in that élite group? Who will decide that they have NLP? The same panel who'll be verifying the native speakers? Methinks it's playing with fire.
| | | | Michael Beijer
United Kingdom
Local time: 07:59
Member (2009)
Dutch to English
+ ...
| muddy bilingual waters | Sep 30, 2012 |
Paul Cohen wrote:
The concept is so inextricably intertwined with people's diverse personal and cultural and linguistic backgrounds. Sometimes it's straightforward (Bernhard is a native speaker of German. Period. Paul is not a native speaker of Danish. Period.) Sometimes the waters are muddier. Mike is a good case in point.
(...)
How often have I had to explain to people in the States that I don't translate into German because it's not my native language? Even close family members have said things like: "Oh, I'm sorry. I thought your German was good, Paul." In situations like that, I don't know whether to laugh or cry. Most people outside our profession, especially those who speak only one language, have little clue what the fuss is all about.
And, what's even more frightening, not even everyone inside the profession can agree on what all the fuss is about. [emphasis mine]
Thanks, Paul, you put it better than I ever could!
I think that people who were not raised bilingually will always have a hard time understanding what I am talking about here. Whereas I am equally puzzled by their not being able to understand something as simple (to me) as being a native speaker of a language – and yet not being 100% proficient in it. It really is possible, and it happens all the time. My entire family, on both my mother's and my father's side, were raised with more than just one language. My ancestors spoke Dutch, German, Polish, and a little Russian too. (my full name is: Michael Joseph Wdowiak Beijer). My mother grew up speaking German and English in Florida. My mother's father was Polish, and her mother was German. etc. etc. etc.
The reason why I keep 'switching' native languages here on Proz (first NL + EN, then only EN, and now back to NL + EN) is that things are not that black and white. But I wouldn't expect people from monolingual families to ever really understand... so I suppose they will just continue to think that I am being dishonest.
The whole thing is obviously made worse by the fact that we are all just staring at computer screens throughout this entire 'debate'. Come by and talk to me at the Powwow I'm organising in a week or so in Brighton (http://www.proz.com/powwow/4420 ) and I assure you: you will understand what all the fuss was about [insert bilingual smiley face here].
Michael
[Edited at 2012-09-30 15:58 GMT]
[Edited at 2012-09-30 15:59 GMT]
| | | | | Yes, I agree that such factors as: where the translator grew up, | Sep 30, 2012 |
which languages his or her parents spoke; what the language of instruction in their elementary or high school was; in which language they completed their university studies, and wrote academic papers; how long they have been speaking a particular language, and how often, might be important as far as the quality of the translations done by them is concerned, however, this should not be a criteria preventing people from bidding. Everyone should be allowed to bid on any jobs they want to, and be al... See more which languages his or her parents spoke; what the language of instruction in their elementary or high school was; in which language they completed their university studies, and wrote academic papers; how long they have been speaking a particular language, and how often, might be important as far as the quality of the translations done by them is concerned, however, this should not be a criteria preventing people from bidding. Everyone should be allowed to bid on any jobs they want to, and be allowed to at least submit their CVs, a writing sample and whatever they wish, to support their claim that they will do a good job. It is obvious that such factors as the ones mentioned above are taken into consideration by the clients when choosing the right translator. People cannot be prevented, however, from applying for particular jobs based on their linguistic history. I think there can either be self-declared native languages, or L1, and a primary language, which often may turn out to be the same language, or perhaps there should not be such a category as a native language whatsoever, and bidders could just explain their stories in their profiles and CVs, calling those languages whatever they wish. I think the best solution might be really to remove the native language category, whatsoever. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | you just can't simply turn "native" | Sep 30, 2012 |
Paul Cohen wrote:
The concept is so inextricably intertwined with people's diverse personal and cultural and linguistic backgrounds. Sometimes it's straightforward (Bernhard is a native speaker of German. Period. Paul is not a native speaker of Danish. Period.) Sometimes the waters are muddier. Mike is a good case in point.
Native speakers must have a "personal history" of having grown up with, having been schooled and possibly having worked/studied in a particular language and culture. The growing-up and being schooled part is most important for being able to claim the language as "native language".
That's where the argument ends about who should call oneself a native speaker.
All the proficiency (translating from language A to B and writing in language B) a non-native speaker claims will not make him/her a native speaker.
And I would say it would be an exception if a non-native translator outperforms a native speaker who is also a professional translator with comparable experience and comparable fields of expertise.
I don't think I would agree that the waters are sometimes muddier. Mike might not really qualify as a native speaker of Dutch. If the waters are muddy at all, they are muddy 1% of the time (well, very rarely). And that would mean someone's personal language history is very similar to the typical native speaker. And it will show. Then let them into the "native speaker" club.
There is no reason to be afraid of verifying someone's native language and running the high risk they are translation nincompoops.
It is far more likely that people who simply claim to be "native speakers" but whose personal language history is utterly non-native are indeed less qualified to translate into and write in that (their non-native) language than a native speaker.
One thing is for sure, you should not call yourself a "native speaker" when not just your writing but your personal history clearly indicate otherwise. You cannot turn into a native speaker overnight or after your formative years. In my view, there is no exception. To become a native speaker, you had to go through a particular language development process. We all did.
If you are highly qualified translating INTO a particular language that is not your native language, then state that, or show it through references, samples, etc.
And if you are a native speaker but feel you're not qualified to translate into that language, well I guess you could state that too.
Just don't call yourself a native speaker if you're not. It's a different animal.
B
[Edited at 2012-09-30 17:40 GMT]
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| Quite frankly... | Sep 30, 2012 |
Lisa Simpson, MCIL wrote:
The people you and I are thinking of don't come into this "native-level proficiency" (hereinafter NLP) discussion. As for the genuinely proficient ones, I'm not sure what the NLP label will bring to the party. Say we have José, Mr B and Samuel in that category. What will happen to José's chances of getting PT > EN work now he's no longer a "native speaker", and will Mr B and Samuel's chances increase (bearing in mind they already translate in that direction anyway)? Will they actually be better off than the rest of the proletarians who aren't in that élite group? Who will decide that they have NLP? The same panel who'll be verifying the native speakers? Methinks it's playing with fire.
... it won't make such a big difference for me.
Translating into my admittedly non-native (in the strict sense) English accounts for 5% of my total business, perhaps more, but certainly not as much as 10%.
The most frequent cases of PT > EN that I handle are:
- Sworn translations, because their statutory prices in Brazil are generally lower. Most often school documents of Brazilian undergraduates who will be taking graduate studies abroad. Sometimes personal documents to be submitted overseas. Some other cases now and then.
- Brazilian companies needing a business agreement translated into English to be signed by EN-speaking parties.
- Bids and ancillary documents for Brazilian companies to enter international tenders.
- Business presentations that Brazilian managers will be doing at their company's headquarters or international meetings.
- Brazilian videos - mostly documentaries, TV newscasts, market survey focus group discussions, lectures, TV commercials, training - for subtitling.
It is easy to notice that in these cases my familiarity with the Brazilian current cultural environment often plays a more important role here than my ability to adopt an 'American frame of mind'. However the latter becomes important when I review my output. I can "turn on" that American frame of mind, plan B relies on involving someone who has it by nature.
Every time I was offered a job where a true native EN speaker was needed, I wasn't at all shy to advise the prospect to hire one. Whenever possible, I referred them to colleagues that I considered adequate. BTW, while all of these were living in the USA, not always they were native Americans.
On the other hand, I admit that I am unable to turn on a British frame of mind. I didn't have enough interaction with enough Brits. Very honestly, I had more communication problems using English in London than in Israel (though they use a peculiar variant depicted in the movie "Zohan"). So I wonder what's the point in being a thoroughly native American EN speaker, when a translation is intended for the UK.
Bottom line is that I'll gladly remove the EN-native speaker label from my profile, as soon as Proz provides the means to display as prominently my proficiency in EN-US.
[Edited at 2012-09-30 17:07 GMT]
| | | | Michael Beijer
United Kingdom
Local time: 07:59
Member (2009)
Dutch to English
+ ...
Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
Native speakers must have a "personal history" of having grown up with, having been schooled and possibly having worked/studied in a particular language and culture. The growing-up and being schooled part is most important for being able to claim the language as "native language".
That's where the argument ends about who should call oneself a native speaker.
(...)
I don't think I would agree that the waters are sometimes muddier. Mike might not really qualify as a native speaker of Dutch. If the waters are muddy at all, they are muddy 1% of the time (well, very rarely). And that would mean someone's personal language history is very similar to the typical native speaker. And it will show. Then let them into the "native speaker" club.
(...)
B
[Edited at 2012-09-30 17:03 GMT]
Everything in bold above holds true for me, and applies to both of my native languages: Dutch and English.
I'm really starting to wonder if any of you here have actually ever met a bilingual person, I mean in person. I think if you had, you would see how far off the mark your 1% really is!
Michael
| | | | XXXphxxx (X)
United Kingdom
Local time: 07:59
Portuguese to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
I have an equally complicated background and therefore sympathise with your issues. To understand where some of this is coming from you need to look at the bigger picture in this NL/EN “native speaker” group. The impression one has (correct me if I'm wrong) is that there is an inordinate number of NL native speakers who have taken on EN native speaker status when it is more than evident from their very profile that their English is below par. Not to put too fine a point on it, this problem w... See more I have an equally complicated background and therefore sympathise with your issues. To understand where some of this is coming from you need to look at the bigger picture in this NL/EN “native speaker” group. The impression one has (correct me if I'm wrong) is that there is an inordinate number of NL native speakers who have taken on EN native speaker status when it is more than evident from their very profile that their English is below par. Not to put too fine a point on it, this problem would appear to be rife amongst NL native speakers, plus I understand it comes tinged with a certain arrogance, so I can see why it might therefore be irksome to EN native speakers in those language pairs. You may be an innocent scapegoat in all this, but I suppose the fact that you dropped the NL native speaker icon altogether did not help matters. All of this is of course entirely your decision and prerogative. I might add that there are hordes of PT native speakers who have taken over the PT > EN language pair and have bombarded KudoZ with "How do you say 'the cat sat on the mat'?" type questions. To give them their due, curiously none of them have actually taken to lying about their native language, although their English is actually nowhere near the standard of your Dutch compatriots. It does make me wonder why the Dutch contingent actually feel the need to misrepresent themselves? ▲ Collapse
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Michael Beijer wrote:
I'm really starting to wonder if any of you here have actually ever met a bilingual person, I mean in person. I think if you had, you would see how far off the mark your 1% really is!
Michael
Clarification: My 1% relates to people who are native speakers even though their native language development is rather atypical - meaning they acquired it in a shorter time, or when they were almost past their formative years, etc, very unlikely but possible cases of native speakers.
Usually someone had to be a child when he/she acquired the language, and had to have grown up with it (we're talking quite a few years) to really be considered a native speaker. A year or two as a child and an occasional use of a language don't make you a native speaker.
Now, bilingual (or multilingual) is another story. I am bilingual (German and English) and so are you (or you might be multilingual).
Bernhard
N.B. If, as you say, my definition for native speaker holds true for two of the languages you speak (Dutch and English), then you are a native speaker of both languages. You can still decide NOT to translate into Dutch.
[Edited at 2012-09-30 18:58 GMT]
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Michael Beijer
United Kingdom
Local time: 07:59
Member (2009)
Dutch to English
+ ...
Thanks for trying to put this into context Lisa. I do see where this is coming from, although I must admit that I haven't taken to combing through the NL-EN database and playing around with the filter, so I also can't really say whether I believe the problem is as widespread as the panicked few here would have us believe. I think Samuel did have a go at some point, back around post #2889, but I can't remember what he had to report on the issue.
I suppose that since I am one of the o... See more Thanks for trying to put this into context Lisa. I do see where this is coming from, although I must admit that I haven't taken to combing through the NL-EN database and playing around with the filter, so I also can't really say whether I believe the problem is as widespread as the panicked few here would have us believe. I think Samuel did have a go at some point, back around post #2889, but I can't remember what he had to report on the issue.
I suppose that since I am one of the only Dutch-English translators to actually speak up on this matter here in this thread (apart from Olly), it is also fairly understandable that I am also going to receive a lot of the flak. I seem to have made myself a bit of a shooting target, so to speak. I also suppose that the reason why so few other Dutch translators have chosen to say anything in their/our defense is that it is in the interest of the lying Dunglish hordes to just lie low and hope this whole thing blows over soon.
Michael ▲ Collapse
| | | | Michael Beijer
United Kingdom
Local time: 07:59
Member (2009)
Dutch to English
+ ...
Bernhard Sulzer wrote: Michael Beijer wrote:
I'm really starting to wonder if any of you here have actually ever met a bilingual person, I mean in person. I think if you had, you would see how far off the mark your 1% really is!
Michael Clarification: My 1% relates to people who are native speakers even though their native language development is rather atypical - meaning they acquired it in a shorter time, or when they were almost past their formative years, etc, very unlikely but possible cases of native speakers. Usually someone had to be a child when he/she acquired the language, and had to have grown up with it (we're talking quite a few years) to really be considered a native speaker. A year or two as a child and an occasional use of a language don't make you a native speaker. Now, bilingual (or multilingual) is another story. I am bilingual (German and English) and so are you (or you might be multilingual). Bernhard N.B. If, as you say, my definition for native speaker holds true for two of the languages you speak (Dutch and English), then you are a native speaker of both languages. You can still decide NOT to translate into Dutch. [Edited at 2012-09-30 18:58 GMT]
I am still trying to understand what you mean by that 1%. Do you actually believe that only 1% of all people with native languages (which I assume means: all people, right?) became so in an atypical manner?
Hmm. I think where we disagree is that I think that there are actually a lot more people out there in the real world (much more than 1%) who were raised in 'atypical' (i.e., atypical to people raised in monolingual families/environments) bilingual environments and who have two (or maybe more) native languages that would not fit the rather limited/strict definitions of what it means to be a true/real/pure/actual 'native speaker' espoused here in this thread.
Michael
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Michael Beijer wrote:
I am still trying to understand what you mean by that 1%. Do you actually believe that only 1% of all people with native languages (which I assume means: all people, right?) became so in an atypical manner?
Hmm. I think where we disagree is that I think that there are actually a lot more people out there in the real world (much more than 1%) who were raised in 'atypical' (i.e., atypical to people raised in monolingual families/environments) bilingual environments and who have two (or maybe more) native languages that would not fit the rather limited/strict definitions of what it means to be a true/real/pure/actual 'native speaker' espoused here in this thread.
Michael
Maybe we disagree on what is atypical or maybe I didn't make myself clear enough.
All I am saying is that I don't believe you can become a native speaker when you're 25 (an adult) and that it is very unlikely to happen and atypical when you start "acquiring" a native language at let's say 17 or if you were exposed to it (native language environment) for only a very short time during your childhood.
I don't find it atypical if you acquired your two native languages during the formative years, having been immersed in both of them for at least a few years.
Bernhard
[Edited at 2012-09-30 20:31 GMT]
| | | | Michael Beijer
United Kingdom
Local time: 07:59
Member (2009)
Dutch to English
+ ...
Bernhard Sulzer wrote: Michael Beijer wrote:
I am still trying to understand what you mean by that 1%. Do you actually believe that only 1% of all people with native languages (which I assume means: all people, right?) became so in an atypical manner?
Hmm. I think where we disagree is that I think that there are actually a lot more people out there in the real world (much more than 1%) who were raised in 'atypical' (i.e., atypical to people raised in monolingual families/environments) bilingual environments and who have two (or maybe more) native languages that would not fit the rather limited/strict definitions of what it means to be a true/real/pure/actual 'native speaker' espoused here in this thread.
Michael Maybe we disagree on what is atypical or maybe I didn't make myself clear enough. All I am saying is that I don't believe you can become a native speaker when you're 25 (an adult) and that it is very unlikely to happen and atypical when you start "acquiring" a language at let's say 17 or if you were exposed to it for only a very short time during your childhood. I don't find it atypical if you acquired your two native languages during the formative years, having been immersed in both of them for at least a few years. Bernhard [Edited at 2012-09-30 20:11 GMT]
In that case, I completely agree with you.
I can't remember what I proposed as a definition of 'native language', many pages back, but it was probably something along the lines of: 'the language you grew up using, at home and at school, for the first 10 years or so of your life'. I must admit that I don't really know what to make of the 'and which you have continued to use habitually ever since' part that some people have tacked on.
Let me now apply this to myself:
I grew up speaking both Dutch and English at home and at school during the first 10 years of my life. Therefore: I am a native speaker of both Dutch and English.
I don't really know what else I could do to convince those who doubt that I am telling the truth here, other than post photos of me as a 4, 5, and 6-year-old child at Disneyland in California, and then more of myself, a little later, in the playground of the Spaarneschool in Haarlem (in the Netherlands) when I was 8, 9, and 10, and a yet few more of me even later – singing in the choir at the Koorschool in Haarlem. But I think I'll leave that for when I am finally verified by someone from Proz.com...
Michael
[Edited at 2012-09-30 20:39 GMT]
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| Blame it on Disney! | Sep 30, 2012 |
Lisa Simpson, MCIL wrote:
I might add that there are hordes of PT native speakers who have taken over the PT > EN language pair and have bombarded KudoZ with "How do you say 'the cat sat on the mat'?" type questions. To give them their due, curiously none of them have actually taken to lying about their native language, although their English is actually nowhere near the standard of your Dutch compatriots. It does make me wonder why the Dutch contingent actually feel the need to misrepresent themselves?
Michael Beijer wrote:
I don't really know what else I could do to convince those who doubt that I am telling the truth here, other than post photos of me as a 4, 5, and 6-year-old child at Disneyland in California...
Though all features in the Disney parks in the US are 'English-speaking', many native PT speakers go there, spend a couple of weeks or so, and return home scot-free. As a result of such accomplishment, some decide to become "translaters", which explains the bizarre Kudoz questions.
To give an example, here is just one paragraph, randomly taken from an actual 190-page Brazilian book perpetrated into English by one such "translater" (verified as NOT being a Prozian):
In essence, his dignified personage as Jesus is such as that to his “biographer” is not aloud to drift about him without consistent sources. On the other way, it is not aloud leading on surreptitious facts about him even if the ideas would be very different from the religious domains nowadays.
This "translater" (I have the person's name here, however I prefer not to disclose it) didn't misrepresent his/her native language to the end-client, who made the decision on the individual's CV, considered "impressive" by that editor. However such an atrocious translation makes native speakerness a minor issue; a native speaker of Klingon would have done it better.
| | | | Ty Kendall
United Kingdom
Local time: 07:59
Hebrew to English
José Henrique Lamensdorf wrote: In essence, his dignified personage as Jesus is such as that to his “biographer” is not aloud to drift about him without consistent sources. On the other way, it is not aloud leading on surreptitious facts about him even if the ideas would be very different from the religious domains nowadays. This "translater" (I have the person's name here, however I prefer not to disclose it) didn't misrepresent his/her native language to the end-client, who made the decision on the individual's CV, considered "impressive" by that editor. However such an atrocious translation makes native speakerness a minor issue
I'm not sure it does, if anything it strengthens it. I simply can't imagine a native speaker churning out such gobbledygook.
Granted, there was clearly a lot which went astray on that project, but a native speaker would have provided a "safety net" - regardless of other flaws it may/may not still have had at the hands of a native speaker, it would have at least been sensical, grammatical English.
| | | | Samuel Murray
Netherlands
Local time: 08:59
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
| Out of circulation again | Oct 1, 2012 |
So... what have you guys been talking about for the past 25 pages?
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