| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 90 91 92 93 94 95 96 97 98 99 100 101 102 103 104 105 106 107 108 109 110 111 112 113 114 115 116 117 118 119 120 121 122 123 124 125 126 127 128 129 130 131 132 133 134 135 136 137 138 139 140 141 142 143 144 145 146 147 148 149 150 151 152 153 154 155 156 157 158 159 160 161 162 163 164 165 166 167 168 169 170 171 172 173 174 175 176 177 178 179 180 181 182 183] > | Should “native language” claims be verified? Thread poster: XXXphxxx (X)
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Ty Kendall 
United Kingdom
Local time: 16:13
Hebrew to English
| That is why Samuel..... | Aug 8, 2012 |
...I said it might be an idea for the graders to come from the same country if it was really deemed necessary.
However, don't let Liliana's obsession with accents cloud the issue. I'm pretty sure I could spot a non-native speaker trying to pull off a Geordie accent a mile off (and if I couldn't then surely they have earned the right to be called "native" speakers - we were originally only talking about catching the egregious cases - the ones who would never "pass" as natives ... See more ...I said it might be an idea for the graders to come from the same country if it was really deemed necessary.
However, don't let Liliana's obsession with accents cloud the issue. I'm pretty sure I could spot a non-native speaker trying to pull off a Geordie accent a mile off (and if I couldn't then surely they have earned the right to be called "native" speakers - we were originally only talking about catching the egregious cases - the ones who would never "pass" as natives in any shape or form).
So, if you really think the sheer number of global varieties are a problem then surely you wouldn't object to graders from the same country. Most people are fully aware and familiar with the varieties of the language of their own country, if not others.
As for the other question, I regard 2nd and 3rd generation English first language speakers as native speakers when they actually are, not when they masquerade to be.
do you (or others) regard second and third generation English first language speakers from countries that were not mainly colonised by the British as really native English speakers?
I'm not really sure where you had in mind? But it's not a straightforward question. I certainly wouldn't rule it out, nor would I automatically count them in as native speakers by accident of history and geography. I think it's entirely possible to keep native language a linguistic assessment, not a cultural one.
Edited to add:
The "graders from the same country" [as the linguistic variety you claim to speak] would also go some way in ensuring no cultural bias.
[Edited at 2012-08-08 09:40 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | | For some languages we’d need something more granular than “country” | Aug 8, 2012 |
Ty Kendall wrote:
...I said it might be an idea for the graders to come from the same country if it was really deemed necessary.
…
Edited to add:
The "graders from the same country" [as the linguistic variety you claim to speak] would also go some way in ensuring no cultural bias.
[Edited at 2012-08-08 09:40 GMT]
It’s actually more complicated than that: For some languages we might need something more granular than “country,” while, paradoxically, at the same time acknowledging that graders from a different country might sometimes do a better job than graders from the same country.
Actually for some languages how well you speak often doesn’t even matter, because you don’t write the way you speak…
| | | | Samuel Murray
Netherlands
Local time: 17:13
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
| @Phil, wrt Ty | Aug 8, 2012 |
Ty Kendall wrote: Samuel wrote:
Do you (or others) regard second and third generation English first language speakers from countries that were not mainly colonised by the British as really native English speakers? I certainly wouldn't rule it out, nor would I automatically count them in as native speakers by accident of history and geography. ... The "graders from the same country" (as the linguistic variety you claim to speak) would also go some way in ensuring no cultural bias.
So, you'd be happy if Chinese-born English native claimers are tested only by native English speakers who were born and raised in China and had never lived anywhere else?
| | | | | Predictable response (from me) | Aug 8, 2012 |
Lisa Simpson, MCIL wrote: Luis Arri Cibils wrote:
... when we simply were asking compliance with the site rules.
all we're asking is for is compliance with the site's own rules.
And, of course, on the general issue of misrepresentation
Even on 24 July Ty Kendall wrote: 1. Because it's against site rules ( http://www.proz.com/siterules/general/6#6). All other site rules are enforced with German-like efficiency, this particular rule is swept under the carpet like a Greek tax bill.
I am increasingly of the view that we don't need (and never did!) to ask for anything new at all. Merely enforcement of the sites own rules and procedures. Seemingly two of them, now (the misrepresentation rule, and the existing procedure for verifying "N"s).
[Edited at 2012-08-08 10:56 GMT]
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Sheila Wilson
Spain
Local time: 16:13
Member (2007)
English
+ ...
| Proof of the problem | Aug 8, 2012 |
It seems that some people here doubt that there is a problem (why would anyone lie?) and the same and/or other people maintain that native speakers would not necessarily know another native speaker.
It would be unfair to take anything from forums etc. as the individual in question could easily by tracked down from Google searches, but I have recently been in private correspondence with another ProZ member (i.e. a paying member), so I am able to produce examples of their "native Eng... See more It seems that some people here doubt that there is a problem (why would anyone lie?) and the same and/or other people maintain that native speakers would not necessarily know another native speaker.
It would be unfair to take anything from forums etc. as the individual in question could easily by tracked down from Google searches, but I have recently been in private correspondence with another ProZ member (i.e. a paying member), so I am able to produce examples of their "native English".
These are quotes from a series of emails by a member who has declared (unverified) two native languages: French and English. S/he lives in Delhi:
This is not acceptable, you did partiality it shows what kind of professionalism you have towards your business.
Forgive me if you find my words hearted, I apologies for that, I am not deeply going to the concerned subject but...
...this is the question what the business you have do with yourself and others.
Welcome to have your valuable comments.
Now, some questions for all of you here, but especially for truly native speakers of English:
- is that the writing of a native English speaker?
- are any errors a result of typing without polishing (as we all tend to do in forum postings)?
- would any/all of the verification methods discussed on these pages determine the true situation?
- could that person truly believe themselves to be a native speaker of English?
- is that person simply lying?
- do you want to be seen as "a fellow native-English professional translator", one of this person's peers?
- do you think I should worry that this FR > EN translator will steal my jobs?
However, I must not be unjust. A few words were in perfect English. There was even one entire English sentence in the last email. But then you know what they say about bibles and monkeys, I imagine? Unfortunately, grammatically correct or not, it received an extremely curt response:
Anyway what is your price for Eng > Fr per word in USD, (pls provide your best rate for me)
THIS is the problem under discussion here
Sheila ▲ Collapse
| | | | | It might well be native from India. | Aug 8, 2012 |
I know many people from Britain would not consider English from India native, but I think it might be.
You also probably do not realize that material obtained without the consent of the author cannot be presented as proof. So all you have been doing is unauthorized use of written material. It is really illegal to use somebody's blogging or e-mails for different purposes without consent. Would taping phone conversations be the next step?
<... See more I know many people from Britain would not consider English from India native, but I think it might be.
You also probably do not realize that material obtained without the consent of the author cannot be presented as proof. So all you have been doing is unauthorized use of written material. It is really illegal to use somebody's blogging or e-mails for different purposes without consent. Would taping phone conversations be the next step?
[Edited at 2012-08-08 11:10 GMT]
[Edited at 2012-08-08 11:12 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Predictable response II | Aug 8, 2012 |
Ambrose Li wrote:
Actually for some languages how well you speak often doesn’t even matter, because you don’t write the way you speak…
One wonders, what with writing being the trigger for the thread, and writing being the evidence used when pointing the "misrepresentation" (or "liar"!) finger, and writing being what we do (most of us), and with the objective of testing speech being merely to confirm an attribute which is only intended to provide an indication as to the standard of writing a client can expect, whether we're really focussing on the write... er, right thing here?
I appreciate that a quick chat seems on the face of it to be a nifty way to check "nativeness" (it has the huge advantages of easily producing spontaneous output, and not taking long), but here we go again, with plenty of issues arising once you get into the nitty gritty. There would, no doubt be plenty of issues with the nitty gritty of any verification. If we're going to be dealing with nitty gritty, I'd rather it was relevant nitty gritty....
Of course, there's no reason to have either/or, really. You could have a 2 minute chat to eliminate the obvious false cases, and have a writing test for when there is a split decision or if there is another good reason not to rely on speach (such as my deaf translator I mentioned weeks ago).
All that said, if the site just enforced its own procedures, which seem to imply actual voice conversations, that would be vastly preferable to the status quo. I can't believe I'm in here lobbying for proz to enforce its RuleZ.
| | | | Ty Kendall
United Kingdom
Local time: 16:13
Hebrew to English
| Native varieties of English | Aug 8, 2012 |
Samuel Murray wrote: Ty Kendall wrote: Samuel wrote:
Do you (or others) regard second and third generation English first language speakers from countries that were not mainly colonised by the British as really native English speakers? I certainly wouldn't rule it out, nor would I automatically count them in as native speakers by accident of history and geography. ... The "graders from the same country" (as the linguistic variety you claim to speak) would also go some way in ensuring no cultural bias. So, you'd be happy if Chinese-born English native claimers are tested only by native English speakers who were born and raised in China and had never lived anywhere else?
Hmmm, I'm really stuck for time so haven't got time for nitpicking today. Even if someone is born and raised in China as a native English speaker (surely an extreme rarity) then if they were raised by native English speaking parents/carers etc then they would speak their variety of English, whatever that is (British, American, Canadian, Indian, etc).
What I'm saying is that even people geographically removed from the language variant they claim to speak should be graded by people who speak that variant. I'd happly grade a British English speaker raised in China, it would be pretty easy to tell the difference between someone who has a bit of L2 interference and someone with L1 Chinese pretending to be the other.
Using Lisa as an example - she doesn't claim to speak "Brazilian English" even though she spent a long time there. I've heard her speak and she sounds as English as I do. So if she is a case in point then I don't think people who live removed from the location of their language variant have anything to fear.
...no time to explain myself properly so will have to accept this post too will be shredded....
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| Since you asked... | Aug 8, 2012 |
Sheila Wilson wrote:
Now, some questions for all of you here, but especially for truly native speakers of English:
- is that the writing of a native English speaker?
No
- are any errors a result of typing without polishing (as we all tend to do in forum postings)?
apologies/apologise is a possible
- would any/all of the verification methods discussed on these pages determine the true situation?
My original stance was that you would, in fact, be able to present evidence such as that email when making a challenge (I've always supported the challenge approach, not universal testing). I appreciate it raises issues, but evey proposed solution does...
- could that person truly believe themselves to be a native speaker of English?
- is that person simply lying?
Quite possibly, and you'd possibly have to face accusations of racism, or at least a lack of cultural awareness, if you tried to say otherwise.
- do you want to be seen as "a fellow native-English professional translator", one of this person's peers?
No. Which is my main concern in this thread.
- do you think I should worry that this FR > EN translator will steal my jobs?
No. If you are driven out of business by people who produce crud like that, you're in the wrong business anyway. You may miss out on some projects (translations into Eng can be ordered by people who don't speak it, for an audience of non-English speakers, e.g. when Eng is used as a lingua france in a company). But overall, I would say if that's the competition, and you're losing to it, then you're doing something wrong.
But then you know what they say about bibles and monkeys, I imagine?
I thought it was the works of Shakespeare?
| | | | Ty Kendall
United Kingdom
Local time: 16:13
Hebrew to English
...that if there are difficult to tell cases, then maybe there should be some policy of "benefit of the doubt" or "erring on the side of caution".
Egregious cases won't warrant this though, naturally.
| | | | | Number of times you have posted so far in this thread: 117 | Aug 8, 2012 |
When it says that, does it mean this is my 118th post? Blimey.
Ty Kendall wrote:
...that if there are difficult to tell cases, then maybe there should be some policy of "benefit of the doubt" or "erring on the side of caution".
Egregious cases won't warrant this though, naturally.
I would say one's stance on this might depend on whether you're talking about universal procedures (e.g. the procedure the site describes for "N" verification) or a challenge to a misrepresentation. Unless I say otherwise, any remarks I make are on the basis of a challenge approach, not universal. As there would be fewer cases to handle, they could be handled properly. Instead of taking an estimated 5 years just to verify existing members, most of whom are decent, honest (and inactive!) anyway.
That said, me old china, I must say that giving people the benefit of the doubt is arguably the one phrase that sums up the decline of this once-worthwhile website (see also the pish spouted about kudoz limits, flying flagrantly in the face of all evidence).
| | | | | Even some Welsh, Scottish and Irish people may not pass your imaginary tests or screeings. | Aug 8, 2012 |
Yes, I agree if some people have lived for most of their lives in a country the language of which they cannot call their second native, this is just a pure proof of having absolutely no interest in the culture of that country and lack of identification with it -- nothing more than that. I am not judging anyone here -- everybody has the right to identify with a culture they want to identify with.
[Edited at 2012-08-08 12:16 GMT]
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As demonstrated quite clearly by some contributions to this never-ending discussion, the proof of the pudding is in the eating...
It could go on for ever without coming to a concise and explicit answer to the initial question.
| | | | XXXphxxx (X)
United Kingdom
Local time: 16:13
Portuguese to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | Oral vs written testing | Aug 8, 2012 |
Whereas my view is that a “native speaker” should be exactly what it says on the tin; the advantage of the method (written testing) that Charlie is promoting is that it does away with these arguments, which have resurfaced, that those speaking “dialects” of English or with accents many of us will never come across (how many native Maoris actually are there on ProZ?) may be unjustly failed on the “nativeness” test. Written langu... See more Whereas my view is that a “native speaker” should be exactly what it says on the tin; the advantage of the method (written testing) that Charlie is promoting is that it does away with these arguments, which have resurfaced, that those speaking “dialects” of English or with accents many of us will never come across (how many native Maoris actually are there on ProZ?) may be unjustly failed on the “nativeness” test. Written language is, by and large, standardised - we did all manage to agree that much several pages ago, didn’t we? ▲ Collapse
| | | | | verifying Chinese | Aug 8, 2012 |
Ambrose Li wrote: Ty Kendall wrote:
...I said it might be an idea for the graders to come from the same country if it was really deemed necessary.
…
Edited to add:
The "graders from the same country" [as the linguistic variety you claim to speak] would also go some way in ensuring no cultural bias.
[Edited at 2012-08-08 09:40 GMT] It’s actually more complicated than that: For some languages we might need something more granular than “country,” while, paradoxically, at the same time acknowledging that graders from a different country might sometimes do a better job than graders from the same country. Actually for some languages how well you speak often doesn’t even matter, because you don’t write the way you speak…
I hope there is a way a native Chinese "writer" is able to verify someone else as a "native Chinese" writer. Can you, Ambrose, by looking at forum posts in Chinese?
If it wouldn't be clear or possible, can you identify someone speaking Chinese as a "native Chinese speaker', say on the telephone?
Are there Chinese chat rooms where people communicate casually (in the sense that they do when writing personal letters)?
With Chinese, I guess speaking and writing are really two different subcategories of one language, and should maybe both be checked?
Could you suggest a way to verify Chinese, possibly on the other thread?
B
[Edited at 2012-08-08 14:06 GMT]
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