| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 90 91 92 93 94 95 96 97 98 99 100 101 102 103 104 105 106 107 108 109 110 111 112 113 114 115 116 117 118 119 120 121 122 123 124 125 126 127 128 129 130 131 132 133 134 135 136 137 138 139 140 141 142 143 144 145 146 147 148 149 150 151 152 153 154 155 156 157 158 159 160 161 162 163 164 165 166 167 168 169 170 171 172 173 174 175 176 177 178 179 180 181 182 183] > | Should “native language” claims be verified? Thread poster: XXXphxxx (X)
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| what makes you sure of this? | Jun 21, 2012 |
Charlie Bavington wrote:
FWIW, I do see this issue as being one that seems to mainly rile translators into English from FIGS, and the impression that English speakers are trying to protect their turf seems hard to avoid. We wouldn't want a rule just for us, would we? Or would we?
Do you read the forums in other languages? It's possible that people are having exactly the same discussions in those. Possibly not, but just a thought.
I agree with Ty however, it's not 'protecting my turf' it's a sense of frustration that my turf isn't being looked after by the people who've decided to set up camp on it.
Now, what real life situation does that remind me of?
| | | | | simply a colloquial way of writing | Jun 21, 2012 |
Tom in London wrote:
"settembre dovrebbe essere pronto l'appartamento..........devo fare un giro di conversazioni e poi get back to you"
No mistakes here, he is also using a good construction "dovrebbe essere pronto" and the English at the end is nice, I think...
| | | | KKastenhuber 
Austria
Local time: 02:28
Russian to German
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| I merely wanted to point it out | Jun 21, 2012 |
Ty Kendall wrote: KKastenhuber wrote:
b) translating out of one's native language is, IMHO, not dogmatically to be frowned upon (see my above post). Obviously this doesn't mean it's acceptable to lie about one's native language(s). these scenarios represent the unusual, in most cases here, none of these arguments apply and non-native speakers of the target language are performing translations under the guise of being a native speaker.
To quote myself:
Obviously this doesn't mean it's acceptable to lie about one's native language(s).
I do get your point, I merely wanted to mention it, since there often seems to be an underlying assumption that it's somehow "wrong" to translate into one's foreign language, when that's not actually the problem.
On the topic of this being an issue in other languages than English: I personally can't recall having seen any fake native German speakers on here, but I'd be interested in what other people have to say about this.
| | | | Oliver Walter
United Kingdom
Local time: 01:28
German to English
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| I translate into a foreign language! | Jun 21, 2012 |
Ty Kendall wrote:
I don't think anyone here would seriously advocate a blanket ban on all translation done by a non-native speaker of the target language.
My title for this reply is deliberately provocative. I have done a few translations into German, but I told the client: "My translation will be fairly good and understandable, but as I am not a native user of German, it will probably not be what a native German speaker would write. Do you still want me to do the translation?"
Oliver
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| More brass tacks | Jun 21, 2012 |
Lisa Simpson, MCIL wrote: Charlie Bavington wrote: Lisa Simpson, MCIL wrote:
Should greater controls be put in place to cut down on the number of false claims? How? 2) We should be able to report non-native speakers claiming to be so.
How would you see that working? Where would the burden of proof be, and what form would it take? As with "kudoz abuse", which we all somehow know when we see it, surely it's dashed hard to quantify? What sort of evidence would be taken into account - forum posts? kudoz? something else?
Thinking more about the burden of proof, and the generally accepted rule that it's hard to prove a negative, I assume the onus would be on the accused not the accuser? What sort of process do you envisage? Or perhaps if enough people hit the "non-native report" button, sheer weight of numbers wins the day regardless? If I were to report you as a non-native, how would you see yourself proving the opposite? (And as I said before, do you reckon the site has the manpower, even if it had the will?)
| | | | | just my impression, tbf | Jun 21, 2012 |
Vikki Pendleton wrote: Charlie Bavington wrote:
FWIW, I do see this issue as being one that seems to mainly rile translators into English from FIGS, and the impression that English speakers are trying to protect their turf seems hard to avoid. We wouldn't want a rule just for us, would we? Or would we?
Do you read the forums in other languages? It's possible that people are having exactly the same discussions in those. Possibly not, but just a thought.
I've been round the block a few times here and elsewhere, it's just an accumulated impression over the years. It could just be that there are more FIGS-related translators around. It doesn't seem to be an issue that gets much airplay on the French forum. The other thread I linked to discussed the point that because English is something of a lingua franca, lots of people treat it as common property and feel free to have a pop at writing it or translating into it. It might also be worth adding that translations into English can easily be ordered by and delivered to people who don't speak it, because of its lingua franca role (I do a couple of regular jobs into English, ordered by French firms, where none of the recipients is English) - I suspect this happens less often with other languages.
I agree with Ty however, it's not 'protecting my turf' it's a sense of frustration that my turf isn't being looked after by the people who've decided to set up camp on it.
Maybe, that's just what it sounds like sometimes. While, as I said, I agree with the OP point in principle, if only because of the dishonesty involved and the fact bad translations give all of us a bad name (I went round some chateau last year, the guidebook was appallingly translated, met a bloke in the car park, told him I was a programmer rather than be associated with such drivel), if I can't produce a translation that is self-evidently superior to most non-native versions, I should probably consider a career change.
[Edited at 2012-06-21 16:46 GMT]
[Edited at 2012-06-21 16:47 GMT]
| | | | | So... is English the only issue here? | Jun 21, 2012 |
What about other languages?
I read many many times, terrible Italian writing, but.. nobody seems to have problems here.
| | | | | It's about listing bogus native language(s) on the profile page. | Jun 21, 2012 |
Prof. Angie G. wrote:
What about other languages?
I read many many times, terrible Italian writing, but.. nobody seems to have problems here.
Hi Angie,
It's not just about English for sure. It's about people who officially list a bogus native language (or even languages) on their profile page.
The thing about English is that many people think it's an 'anyone can speak it/write it' language. They think there are no rules and that anything goes. Just put down the English words and there is no way to be wrong. And because they are actually insensitive to the intricacies of well-written English, they self assess themselves as being 'native' speakers.
But this forum posting concerns any language that is posted as the or a native language when it's not the truth at all. It's wrong and unfair to lie about something that can trick/mislead (potential) clients and other colleagues.
And the problem is rampant and increasing with new members joining. Something must be done.
Imo.
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Ty Kendall
United Kingdom
Local time: 01:28
Hebrew to English
| You couldn't have read my post properly! | Jun 21, 2012 |
Oliver Walter wrote: Ty Kendall wrote:
I don't think anyone here would seriously advocate a blanket ban on all translation done by a non-native speaker of the target language. My title for this reply is deliberately provocative. I have done a few translations into German, but I told the client: "My translation will be fairly good and understandable, but as I am not a native user of German, it will probably not be what a native German speaker would write. Do you still want me to do the translation?" Oliver
My title is also deliberately provocative. Did I not just say that nobody here (including me) is going to say the non-native translation should be outlawed. The situation you describe, specifically being asked to do a translation when the client is FULLY aware that you aren't a native speaker of German is another situation to join the list I started in my last post.
The problem with the vast majority of non-native translation that I see, is that the translator is not being frank with the client at all, and is passing themselves off as a true native speaker - with ProZ's complicit assistance!
| | | | Robert Forstag
United States
Local time: 20:28
Spanish to English
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writeaway wrote: Prof. Angie G. wrote:
What about other languages?
I read many many times, terrible Italian writing, but.. nobody seems to have problems here. Hi Angie, It's not just about English for sure. It's about people who officially list a bogus native language (or even languages) on their profile page. The thing about English is that many people think it's an 'anyone can speak it/write it' language. They think there are no rules and that anything goes. Just put down the English words and there is no way to be wrong. And because they are actually insensitive to the intricacies of well-written English, they self assess themselves as being 'native' speakers.
Over the years, I've edited dozens of papers and dissertations for Dutch academics, and I find that they are inevitably surprised when I return their work covered in the red text of "track changes" corrections. Moreover, I would classify many of the errors as basic. The matter of crafting sentences in a way that passes muster as publishable academic prose is another matter altogether. (Ideally, such work would require something like five different drafts to completely purge the text in question of error and impresicion. Of course, budgets for this kind of work never allow for that much time, so I do the best I can with two separate drafts).
So, as writeaway says, the attitude seems to be, "I've studied English, and I've also read numerous books and watched countless TV programs in the language, so I know I can write pretty well. And all I really need is a light edit of my generally solidly written prose, right?"
Uh, WRONG!!
[Edited at 2012-06-21 19:12 GMT]
| | | | Ty Kendall
United Kingdom
Local time: 01:28
Hebrew to English
| It's not just English, but it happens in English more often | Jun 21, 2012 |
It's funny Charlie should mention guidebooks. I was sent a file last year which was a guidebook of Jerusalem and other Israeli sites. It had been translated from Hebrew into eight languages: English, Russian, French, German, Spanish, Italian, Japanese and Chinese.
They came to me for damage control for HE>EN, they told me it had been translated atrociously in ALL eight languages, but English was the worst. Now, I would really like to have believed that it was a product of MT,... See more It's funny Charlie should mention guidebooks. I was sent a file last year which was a guidebook of Jerusalem and other Israeli sites. It had been translated from Hebrew into eight languages: English, Russian, French, German, Spanish, Italian, Japanese and Chinese.
They came to me for damage control for HE>EN, they told me it had been translated atrociously in ALL eight languages, but English was the worst. Now, I would really like to have believed that it was a product of MT, but after running the source text through MT discovered that even MT made a BETTER job of it than what stood before my eyes.
Here's an extract:
"Jerusalem is reminded 662 times in the bible and escorts the history of The State Of Israel for 3,000 years:
In 1004 BC King David conquered the city from the Jebusites, brought to her the Ark of the Covenant and established there the spiritual and political center of his kingdom. His son, King Solomon, built there the First Temple."
I can only speak from experience, but this kind of "quality" is almost standard when dealing with non-native translation. Yes I know there are exceptions and I know there are situations which demand it, but these are not the instances which concern me and others. ▲ Collapse
| | | | XXXphxxx (X)
United Kingdom
Local time: 01:28
Portuguese to English
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TOPIC STARTER
Robert Forstag wrote:
Over the years, I've edited dozens of papers and dissertations for Dutch academics, and I find that they are inevitably surprised when I return their work covered in the red text of "track changes" corrections. Moreover, I would classify many of the errors as basic. The matter of crafting sentences in a way that passes muster as publishable academic prose is another matter altogether. (Ideally, such work would require something like five different drafts to completely purge the text in question of error and impresicion. Of course, budgets for this kind of work never allow for that much time, so I do the best I can with two separate drafts).
Know this kind of work only too well. I've also edited several hundred thousand words of Dutch academic papers, the budget never stretches and I always deliver the job feeling I haven't achieved enough. It's soul-destroying work and I ask myself every time WHY ON EARTH they don't just write in Dutch and then get it translated. What possesses them to think their command of English is up to the task?
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Samuel Murray
Netherlands
Local time: 02:28
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
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| Getting back to the topic | Jun 21, 2012 |
Lisa Simpson, MCIL wrote:
Should greater controls be put in place to cut down on the number of false claims?
The problem with "native language" is that it is subjective. Even honest folk who would pass all your controls claim "native language" based on their own, subjective interpretation of what that means.
I think ProZ.com deliberately avoided the "what is a native language" issue by keeping it simple: let the user decide his status for himself. This is not a bad solution, unless being native has commercial value... and in ProZ.com's searches and job post systems, it has.
My solution to this would be to do away with the concept of "native language" altogether, and replace it something that is more relevant to translators, namely "best language combination". But let's not call it that -- call it "primary language combination".
It would still be up to the translator to declare it, and it would still be subjective.
| | | | Oliver Walter
United Kingdom
Local time: 01:28
German to English
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Ty Kendall wrote:
I don't think anyone here would seriously advocate a blanket ban on all translation done by a non-native speaker of the target language.
....
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My title is also deliberately provocative. Did I not just say that nobody here (including me) is going to say the non-native translation should be outlawed.
Yes, of course you did - and my post was written as an example of a legitimate non-application of such a blanket ban.
Perhaps I didn't make that clear enough.
Oliver
| | | | Sheila Wilson
Spain
Local time: 01:28
Member (2007)
English
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| I understand both of you | Jun 21, 2012 |
Lisa Simpson, MCIL wrote: Robert Forstag wrote:
Over the years, I've edited dozens of papers and dissertations for Dutch academics, and I find that they are inevitably surprised when I return their work covered in the red text of "track changes" corrections.
It's soul-destroying work and I ask myself every time WHY ON EARTH they don't just write in Dutch and then get it translated. What possesses them to think their command of English is up to the task?
When I lived in the Netherlands for almost three years I was not yet an EFL trainer, let alone a translator, so I didn't see things from the written point of view. What struck me then was the really great command they had of spoken English, at every level of society, but with a way of saying things that was uniquely Dutch. Many people were totally at ease in the language, yet it wasn't entirely my language. I remember thinking that it was close to being their variant of English rather than a foreign language.
Now that my main contact is with Dutch-produced written English, I agree: not only is it uniquely Dutch-English, it is also downright wrong when you put it down on paper. Maybe that's the important difference: you can be a native-equivalent English speaker without being in any way a native-equivalent English writer (and hence translator).
Sheila
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