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Should “native language” claims be verified?
Thread poster: XXXphxxx (X)
LilianNekipelov
LilianNekipelov  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 09:20
Russian to English
+ ...
Hi, Ty Jul 2, 2012

You are entitled to you own opinion. I don't agree with you, because a requirement that a Chinese, let's say, to English or Cambodian to English translation should only be done by a person born of English parents, who was raised in England is unrealistic, and biased in the long run.
As I said before, that might matter if you were to be an editor for the Guardian. I don't know why certain people who are not native speakers of a particular language should be prevented from bidding, at least
... See more
You are entitled to you own opinion. I don't agree with you, because a requirement that a Chinese, let's say, to English or Cambodian to English translation should only be done by a person born of English parents, who was raised in England is unrealistic, and biased in the long run.
As I said before, that might matter if you were to be an editor for the Guardian. I don't know why certain people who are not native speakers of a particular language should be prevented from bidding, at least. Then, the outsourcer could decide whether they like the person's credentials, or sample translation, or not. They don't have to hire them, but let's give them a chance. Some outsources don't even give it much thought whether to choose the native language restriction or not. Some may think it might be somehow beneficial, so they choose it. I have seen some offers were something related to voice-over was required for legal or technical translation of documents -- obviously the wrong button was pressed or somebody did not understand what voice-over was. As to modeling -- this is a little bit different. It is slightly like voice-over, where you need a specific look or type of voice, accent, pitch, and all.
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Ty Kendall
Ty Kendall  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 13:20
Hebrew to English
See page 1,2,3,4 for basic exceptions Jul 2, 2012

LilianBoland wrote:
a requirement that a Chinese, let's say, to English or Cambodian to English translation should only be done by a person born of English parents, who was raised in England is unrealistic, and biased in the long run.


We've covered the basic exceptions to the native only rule in the early pages. And then again on pages 6,7,8 for the latecomers and then on.... you get the idea.

We've covered this.


 
polyglot45
polyglot45
English to French
+ ...
Interpreting Jul 2, 2012

Interpreting is translation, albeit of a slightly different kind. I have two native languages (neither vetted so both grey).
Without explaining the details, which would be giving too much personal info, the main reason is because I work into both these languages when interpreting, even from 3rd (and 4th) = C languages).
I also answer questions into both these languages.
Since I have announced clearly that I am not looking for work, who am I harming by telling "my" truth?
... See more
Interpreting is translation, albeit of a slightly different kind. I have two native languages (neither vetted so both grey).
Without explaining the details, which would be giving too much personal info, the main reason is because I work into both these languages when interpreting, even from 3rd (and 4th) = C languages).
I also answer questions into both these languages.
Since I have announced clearly that I am not looking for work, who am I harming by telling "my" truth?

[Edited at 2012-07-02 14:59 GMT]
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Kirsten Bodart
Kirsten Bodart  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 14:20
Dutch to English
+ ...
I'd like to think I'm near native, but I don't supply translations on my own Jul 2, 2012

but please don't hesitate about the knit-picking. It is weird that the South-African is the only one here who is doing this...

Michele Fauble wrote:
They often are, but need not be. There are quite a few non-native errors in English that are found in the speech/writing of non-native English speakers from a variety of native language backgrounds. A real example:

past tense of did + past tense of main verb, e.g. "did you went?"

A native English speaker does not need to know the native language of the speaker to know that this is a non-native error.


did + past simple of verb, I would not call a non-native error, it's a grammar mistake. You learn this when you learn the past simple and how to ask a question using it or putting it in the negative. The wrong use of tenses is also a grammar problem.

The same goes for the use of 'a' and 'an'. Now, there is discussion about the use of the indefinite article before h (do we stay with the 18th century Latinists or not, and I heard one recently on the BBC), but other than that, the rule is clear cut and simple.

A non-native mistake would be the over-use of indefinite articles, for example. Dutch and German are prone to that, because these languages use nouns in their singular with a definite article for generalisations and not the plural without article at all, like English. Another non-native mistake is using wrong prepositions.

You are going to laugh, but I saw a discussion on the Literature Network a while ago by someone who had seen the two phrases 'Did you used to like...' and 'Did you use to like...' in an English grammar book (!). Both of them were right, allegedly. This was being taught to students. We were all wondering where the world was coming to. Are they now going to teach people faulty grammar?

Michele Fauble wrote:
It would not be a non-native error in any case since spelling and punctuation are not part of what makes one a native speaker.


I don't agree with that. Spelling maybe not, but certain languages do have special puncuation, and it doesn't even need to be because of pauses or not. Admittedly, it is not specifically taught, but I imagine bad non-native German-English translators putting commas everywhere where they shouldn't be. German is a jungle of commas in some cases. Every clause gets a comma to mark its existence.
While in English there is a difference between:

'The cat, which sat on the mat.'

and

'The cat which sat on the mat.'

in German it will always be, 'Die Katze, die auf dem Teppich sass,' (sorry no hard s on my computer), even if you don't pause at the comma because the meaning of the sentence is similar to the second English option above.

I think the natives here who are arguing for the native tag to be of some meaning maybe just wish the rules of their languages to be respected. I can go along with that. At least write a grammatically correct text that does not have millions of contextual mistakes in it.
Although I keep repeating that that is possible for a non-native, in some cases and some fields.


[Edited at 2012-07-02 17:44 GMT]


 
XXXphxxx (X)
XXXphxxx (X)  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 13:20
Portuguese to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Today's Quick Poll Jul 2, 2012

Interesting. I think it endorses what quite a few of us have been trying to say.

Lilian, I'm not sure if you missed my previous post.


I confess to being baffled by many of your comments. In order to try and understand where you're coming from I wonder if you could please explain what your definition of a native language is, i.e. how and why are Polish and English your native languages?



I'm still trying to understand your views on what exactly constitutes a native language and its relevance to translation.


 
LilianNekipelov
LilianNekipelov  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 09:20
Russian to English
+ ...
My views Jul 2, 2012

My views about native language are very similar to what Wikipedia says, and what the American Corpus says. It definitely has to be decided on a case by case basis, and I don't see really how Proz or, anybody else for that mater, can benefit from this sort of verifications. It may scare many people, and they might just leave, even if they are not fraudsters, as someone have called them. I don't understand why non-native speakers should not be allowed to bid on jobs they are convinced they could... See more
My views about native language are very similar to what Wikipedia says, and what the American Corpus says. It definitely has to be decided on a case by case basis, and I don't see really how Proz or, anybody else for that mater, can benefit from this sort of verifications. It may scare many people, and they might just leave, even if they are not fraudsters, as someone have called them. I don't understand why non-native speakers should not be allowed to bid on jobs they are convinced they could handle, and in many cases they probably could. It does not mean that they should get those jobs. The job should be given to the most qualified person for that particular job, not to a person who is a native speaker of the target language or someone who has a lot of points or even a certificate. I think test translation is the best solution that should accompany bidding -- very short text, 100 words which will be a part of that particular translation, not a standard test.

[Edited at 2012-07-02 15:35 GMT]




[Edited at 2012-07-02 15:37 GMT]
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Catherine GUILLIAUMET
Catherine GUILLIAUMET  Identity Verified
Local time: 14:20
English to French
+ ...
In memoriam
Spelling, punctuation ...today Jul 2, 2012

Samuel Murray wrote:


Spelling and punctuation would only not be a mark of nativeness if the person is a poor writer or had little education, but that does not apply to translators.


"but that does not apply to translators", really !!?? Are you sure, Samuel ?

When editing translations made by pure "French native" translators, I can assure you that I can find a lot of spelling and/or grammar mistakes, that are politely called "typos" by some, unfortunately. The same with punctuation.

Nowadays, this type of errors is no longer a mark of "nativeness" or "non-nativeness", it is the mark of the present era.

Catherine


 
Samuel Murray
Samuel Murray  Identity Verified
Netherlands
Local time: 14:20
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
@Lilian -- many translators agree with you, I think Jul 2, 2012

LilianBoland wrote:
I don't understand why non-native speakers should not be allowed to bid on jobs they are convinced they could handle, and in many cases they probably could.


I think many translators would agree with you, which is possibly why so many of them declare their second languages as if they are native languages. However, the fact that you or other translators regard the "native language" criteria as unimportant, or believe in the belief that "native language" does not really matter, does not mean that clients believe that. In fact, I think many clients would think that there is something special about nativeness. That alone should be reason enough for honest translators to refrain from making claims that are not true simply because they don't agree with the client's belief about how little importance "native language" has.

It is unfortunate that discrimination against gender or age is not allowed in the country where ProZ.com is situated, otherwise we might have had two more options in the search feature in addition to "native language", namely "gender" and "age". Those two things are also important to clients who believe that they are relevant, even if many translators were to say "they are not relevant", and why should I not be allowed to bid on a job just because of my gender or my age?


 
LilianNekipelov
LilianNekipelov  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 09:20
Russian to English
+ ...
The clients are usually not linguists Jul 2, 2012

The clients, of customers, are not linguists in most cases, and it is not for them to decide what native language is. If they understand it as the language your parents spoke, the only language you have been speaking for all of your life, including kindergarden, elementary school, high school -- the language you read all your books in -- then they are wrong. We cannot satisfy all requirements based on the clients' idea of something. If they want someone like that, they may find some people like... See more
The clients, of customers, are not linguists in most cases, and it is not for them to decide what native language is. If they understand it as the language your parents spoke, the only language you have been speaking for all of your life, including kindergarden, elementary school, high school -- the language you read all your books in -- then they are wrong. We cannot satisfy all requirements based on the clients' idea of something. If they want someone like that, they may find some people like that, who in addition to their personal life history may be good writers as well. Do you believe than many of such mono-lingual people will know a second language well?
This is questionable. They may definitely make great newspaper editors.

How could gender and age be relevant to translation, Samuel? Did you mean that a person who is 18 would not be as reliable as somebody who is 40? Such distinctions are not allowed in the US, even the native language thing in relation to people with years of education and professional achievement is not totally PC. In court they ask: what language do you understand best?

Many clients should rather think about the fact that their rates are much too low and the budget thing should not be allowed at all. When I go to a dentist, I don't tell him what my budget is.






[Edited at 2012-07-02 17:04 GMT]







[Edited at 2012-07-02 17:10 GMT]
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Samuel Murray
Samuel Murray  Identity Verified
Netherlands
Local time: 14:20
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
@Lilian -- yes, clients are not linguists Jul 2, 2012

LilianBoland wrote:
The clients, of customers, are not linguists in most cases, and it is not for them to decide what native language is.


Yes, I agree, but I think in many cases clients don't have a set idea about what the definition of native language is anyway. They just know that "native is better" and then trust either ProZ.com or the translators to be truthful about who is native and who isn't. ProZ.com can define "native" any way they like and it won't make much difference to clients (though it would make a difference to translators who want to be honest, or who are in danger of being verified).



[Edited at 2012-07-02 17:04 GMT]


 
XXXphxxx (X)
XXXphxxx (X)  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 13:20
Portuguese to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Not again Jul 2, 2012

LilianBoland wrote:

We cannot satisfy all requirements based on the clients' idea of something.


Wouldn't you say it's a good idea to try and do so considering they're paying your bill?


Do you believe than many of such mono-lingual people will know a second language well?


You're right, by definition a monolingual person wouldn't know a second language well.


They may definitely make great newspapers editors.


Why do you keep talking about newspaper editors???? We're talking about translators here, people working as translators, who have a second/third/fourth/fifth language. You keep repeating the same thing: newspaper editors, language verification by the police... If I walked into the local police station and asked them to confirm I was speaking proper English, I'd probably get banged up for wasting police time. This has nothing to do with the police, so can we drop that one (and the newspaper editors while we're at it)?

[Edited at 2012-07-02 17:44 GMT]


 
Charlie Bavington
Charlie Bavington  Identity Verified
Local time: 13:20
French to English
Agreed Jul 2, 2012

LilianBoland wrote:

I don't understand why non-native speakers should not be allowed to bid on jobs they are convinced they could handle, and in many cases they probably could.


Absolutely. And, as was said a day or 2 back, let the market sort it out. There are cases where the market is imperfect (a situation I think applies especially to English in its role as a lingua franca) but hey ho.

I've allued in passing to this before, but I still think it's true. Part of the problem is the dual role played by a proz profile. On the one hand, it describes the services on offer (language pairs mainly, plus the specialisations). On the other hand, it also describes the individual behind the profile, the one person to whom the profile belongs.

And issues arise when there is not a 100% match between those aspects.


 
LilianNekipelov
LilianNekipelov  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 09:20
Russian to English
+ ...
I agree, people should absolutely not lie about their native languages Jul 2, 2012

I agree people should absolutely not lie about their native languages, but the accepted definition of a native language should be much broader, and I think, non-native speakers should be at least allowed to bid on all jobs in their language pairs. The selection should happen later, and I personally think, it should be based on a short test.

 
Bernhard Sulzer
Bernhard Sulzer  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 09:20
English to German
+ ...
attempting another definition Jul 2, 2012

Who is making false claims about their native language?

There is probably one group (A) that believes they can claim a language as one of their/the native language(s) because they "think" they speak it fluently or because they have been speaking it on a daily basis since they moved to the country where that particular language is spoken. (They're "honestly" wrong.)

There is another group (B) that knows they're not really "native speakers" but think they are good enough
... See more
Who is making false claims about their native language?

There is probably one group (A) that believes they can claim a language as one of their/the native language(s) because they "think" they speak it fluently or because they have been speaking it on a daily basis since they moved to the country where that particular language is spoken. (They're "honestly" wrong.)

There is another group (B) that knows they're not really "native speakers" but think they are good enough and are sure that posting it as an additional native language will land them more jobs. (Not so "honestly" wrong, about their NL).

Are there other groups?

The first group would need to be educated - they need to know that their native language concept is incorrect. I lean towards the definition (first part of the first sentence only) on Wikipedia where the/a native language is defined as:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_language
"A first language (also native language, mother tongue, arterial language, or L1) is the language(s) a person has learned from birth[1] or within the critical period..."

The Wikipedia definition continues: "... or that a person speaks the best and so is often the basis for sociolinguistic identity."
Interestingly, the definition includes the words "the language a person ... speaks best". But I don't agree with "or".

As some contributors have pointed out earlier, "native language ability"
can be lost - if you move to another country and begin speaking a new language and do not use your native language any more at all or only on holidays when you call your relatives who stayed behind in their home country. If that person moved to the US and spoke solely English for 10 years, I am sure that English might become the language they speak best. But the new situation then is that they do not have native language competence at all, not in their original language and not in their new language (English).

The only way they could win native language status in English is if they acquired it through their critical years.
Granted, English is probably the language they speak best and it is the basis for their sociolinguistic identity. But they cannot acquire it on a native speaker level.

What I want to know is - do all who say they have two or more native languages consider all these as their 1st languages or the languages they speak best?
I can only doubt that. Even if you learned three languages during the "critical period", there had to be one language that you STILL speak AND are most comfortable with.
So, the definition would be: the/a language that you 1) acquired during the critical period, 2) STILL speak AND 3) consider the language you speak BEST.

Would that be a workable definition?

I would combine the declaration with a message to anybody who looks at the native language claim(s), along the lines of what Jared wrote on page 16 of this thread because outsourcers are very likely to assume that if it says native language, the person is indeed a qualified translator into that language which, as pointed out before, is not necessarily the case ("A native language does not a translator make."):

"Note that while verification of a native language may be an indicator that a person does indeed have X as a native language, it is not a substitute for thorough screening of a language professional's experience and qualifications before a work relation or other collaboration begins."

As far as group A is concerned, they won't have a problem with the definition and probably be truthful.
As far as group B is concerned or anybody who simply wants to appear as a "native speaker" to look better, it will be harder for them if they have to check the boxes 1,2,3. But they might still do it.
What to do about them?
Give them a stern warning by checking box 4.

4): Translator X further declares that his/her statement about his/her native language is truthful. Violations are subject to .........

If it so happens that there are translators who can claim 1,2,3 for more than one language, it should take a written and oral exam to prove it.

Why does it bother other native speakers when somebody puts herself/himself into the same native language group?
For some it might be the jobs they think they lose, for some it's the fact that lying should not be tolerated, for some it's about their own credibility that might be threatened, etc. I guess there are a few reasons.

Should native language be verified?
I believe so, definitely when it is the second or third language.
As far as the first language is concerned, I believe by answering yes to 1,2,3 (truthfully) will probably do it or at least improve the situation.

Bernhard
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Kirsten Bodart
Kirsten Bodart  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 14:20
Dutch to English
+ ...
Oh, yes! Jul 2, 2012

Catherine GUILLIAUMET wrote:

Samuel Murray wrote:


Spelling and punctuation would only not be a mark of nativeness if the person is a poor writer or had little education, but that does not apply to translators.


"but that does not apply to translators", really !!?? Are you sure, Samuel ?

When editing translations made by pure "French native" translators, I can assure you that I can find a lot of spelling and/or grammar mistakes, that are politely called "typos" by some, unfortunately. The same with punctuation.

Nowadays, this type of errors is no longer a mark of "nativeness" or "non-nativeness", it is the mark of the present era.

Catherine


Definitely.

Tell me, do translators nowadays also write past participles where they want an infinitive and vice versa or not? Or à and a? Or is it not that bad yet?

[Edited at 2012-07-02 18:23 GMT]


 
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Should “native language” claims be verified?






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