| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 90 91 92 93 94 95 96 97 98 99 100 101 102 103 104 105 106 107 108 109 110 111 112 113 114 115 116 117 118 119 120 121 122 123 124 125 126 127 128 129 130 131 132 133 134 135 136 137 138 139 140 141 142 143 144 145 146 147 148 149 150 151 152 153 154 155 156 157 158 159 160 161 162 163 164 165 166 167 168 169 170 171 172 173 174 175 176 177 178 179 180 181 182 183] > | Should “native language” claims be verified? Thread poster: XXXphxxx (X)
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| Verification/certification | Jun 22, 2012 |
Surely however, the fact remains that whether you are verified or have the P, they have no true validity. They are not recognised qualifications/evidence whatever way you turn it around, they are not awarded by qualified assessors and the criteria are on the loose side.
So, until an awarding body recognises site verification and the P, the whole process has no meaning anyway.
| | | | Samuel Murray 
Netherlands
Local time: 11:14
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
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| Not splitting hairs | Jun 22, 2012 |
Lisa Simpson, MCIL wrote:
My loose definition is as described by Tom at the start of this thread. Of course there are going to be exceptions...
The issue of the exact definition of "native" is mentioned in my post's very last paragraph, as an aside, and is peripheral to the main point of my post, which you chose not to respond to. In case you missed it, let me restate it: how can ProZ.com's proposed verification system be improved?
I acknowledge that any system would be general and would not take into account exceptions. I'm happy with Tom's definition (that includes having used it daily (or at least very regularly)). The question is how one would go about verifying it. ProZ.com's proposed method sounds good to me: having conversations with a number of verified native speakers is probably one of the best and easiest ways to do it.
You wrote on page 1 of this thread:
2) anyone wishing to read/comment would be put off having to wade through pages and pages of what has gone before.
Well, we are at page 6 here. How about someone giving us a summary of what we have accomplished so far?
[Edited at 2012-06-22 09:54 GMT]
| | | | Kirsten Bodart
United Kingdom
Local time: 11:14
Dutch to English
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| Well, without wanting to go totally off-topic | Jun 22, 2012 |
I think every Flemish person should then have two native languages, because a vast number of people (including those who make the Penguin Dictionary of English) seem to think we do not speak Dutch, and some agencies do post jobs in 'Flemish' asking for a native speaker... Most of them post for 'Dutch'. Hence, we should be entitled to two native languages in case we encounter such a 'Flemish' job. Maybe some of the Dutch would not agree, but they are biased towards their own version of Dutch whic... See more I think every Flemish person should then have two native languages, because a vast number of people (including those who make the Penguin Dictionary of English) seem to think we do not speak Dutch, and some agencies do post jobs in 'Flemish' asking for a native speaker... Most of them post for 'Dutch'. Hence, we should be entitled to two native languages in case we encounter such a 'Flemish' job. Maybe some of the Dutch would not agree, but they are biased towards their own version of Dutch which they deem 'the right one'.
Then, let's say this Flemish/Dutch person has lived in the UK for such an enormous number of years that he regards English as an effortless language, indeed, even has trouble finding his words in Dutch... There are people like this, one is Toots Thielemans (famous Jazz musician) who speaks with an English/American accent in his native Flemish when he comes over and genuinely has trouble putting a proper sentence together... Then say that this hypotethical Flemish person also has a real gift and is more proficient than some of his neighbours. Does that make him native or not?
Does he then have three native languages on proz?
Peer voting would be a good idea if there was enough basis for such a vote. What would this vote be based on? On what you see on the forum and in Kudoz? What if ths person gets a friend to vet his posts? Where are we then? The same person who comes across well on here might just produce a sh*te translation.
I think, if you do produce bad translations, you only get work from agencies once. That's market regulation for you. And yes, of course agencies will always get translators like that who promise and don't deliver (like there are rogue builders who always get customers too), but that also happens with people missing their deadlines. That is also unprofessional and yet there are those who don't learn. Do we have to vet this too?
My husband says he would not trust some of his colleagues' punctuation or spelling. Yet they are all native speakers and teaching English, most of them have at least a CELTA and some degree or other (mostly in something language-related). Most Czechs we have met class his oral Czech as 'native' and can't tell where he is from, sometimes they mistake him for someone from a remote area of Prague, or somewhere else (we have had many guesses). They would certainly not class him as English. What does that make him? He still would not make a translation either from Czech or into Czech because he is not confident (although he has been asked).
The simple fact is that tests, voting and all kinds of evaluations to determine whether someone is native or not are hard to do, if not impossible, because there is no adequate definition of the term 'native language'. In some instances, it is genuinely debatable and where that is the case, how is one going to determine once and for all, 'Such-and-such is (not) native.'? There are gradations in proficiency amongst translators too, I expect, just as there are gradations in proficiency amongst genuine native speakers of a language. The only thing that could be determined is that such-and-such is proficient. But native? Who or what would be the norm? ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Well, there are people with two native languages | Jun 22, 2012 |
For instance in Spain you can speak Spanish and Catalan (different variations) or Spanish and Galician or Spanish and Basque and one can be perfectly proficient at both languages! So I do not belive on the "only one native language", I translate both into Spanish and into Catalan!
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Sheila Wilson
Spain
Local time: 10:14
Member (2007)
English
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| Do some people even consider it, or do they just put what's convenient? | Jun 22, 2012 |
Kirsten Bodart wrote:
The only thing that could be determined is that such-and-such is proficient. But native? Who or what would be the norm?
Even that would be better than what we have at the moment. Let me give an example: I have just this morning read a forum or KudoZ posting (let's leave it non-specific) from someone who translates both ways between Chinese and English. Now, I know that many Chinese translate into English - there are reasons for it and we don't know that this person doesn't employ a native English proofreader, so let's not discuss the "reverse pair" problem here. The thing is that this translator gives two native languages, yet when you look at the profile it is clear that this person is 100% Chinese and makes no meniton of studies or life outside China. Needless to say, the English sentences, though understandable, are most definitely not correct, let alone natural-sounding.
The chances are that this person doesn't really see himself as an English native speaker. However, how many clients here specify they want a native speaker of the target language? What a shame to pass up all those jobs! Why not just tell a little fib? It doesn't even appear to be ageinst the rules, much less policed.
Isn't that part of the problem here?
Sheila
| | | | XXXphxxx (X)
United Kingdom
Local time: 10:14
Portuguese to English
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TOPIC STARTER | This is NOT what we've been saying | Jun 22, 2012 |
Paula Hernández wrote:
For instance in Spain you can speak Spanish and Catalan (different variations) or Spanish and Galician or Spanish and Basque and one can be perfectly proficient at both languages! So I do not belive on the "only one native language", I translate both into Spanish and into Catalan!
I might be mistaken as there have been a large number of posts in a short period, but I don't think anyone here has said that people should only be allowed one native language, what we are saying is that the second should be properly verified. That's all. There seems to be a huge amount of misunderstanding going on.
[Edited at 2012-06-22 16:19 GMT]
| | | | | There is no way to determine or check | Jun 22, 2012 |
In our multicultural societies there is no way to determine, and especially to check, what somebody's native language is, taking into consideration the broad definition of the term. Translators could be asked to translate short passages for the prospective customer so that they could determine if this is the quality they have been looking for. Otherwise, it is Utopian.
| | | | | Shaky English | Jun 22, 2012 |
Vikki Pendleton wrote:
If you could see the English used by some of the people we are referring to then you would completely understand the issue.
You mean this kind of thing? This is not a machine translation, by the way.
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Together with our clients we define the targets for the promotion, on the basis of which we quantify our prosperity: Targets, which are reachable with the promotion, which are relevant for corebusiness and whose implementation makes an impact on the functional business success. Integrated into the existing marketing mix, it brings an additional benefit for our clients - promotions with commensurable results, that bring more than they cost!
We offer adapted to your trade and for your enterprise:
• attractive hostesses with trained social skills as eye-cacher
• communicative types, which attract attention 100% to your company and your products.
• Professional and exhibition-practiced team players as support for your expertise-team.
• conceptional consulting, that makes an efficient and successful communication channel out of your promotions.
Get an idea by yourself and make your choice for your promotionteam online.
http://www.festakt.at/index.php?go=promote&id=5&lg=en
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Cetacea
Switzerland
Local time: 11:14
English to German
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| Quantity rather than quality | Jun 22, 2012 |
Gitte Hovedskov Hansen wrote:
There seems to be an assumption in this forum, that membership of ProZ.com is some kind of quality stamp in itself, whereas in reality, ProZ.com is just another commercial site for translators and outsourcers who are at all liberty to use the site whichever way they want.
Absolutely. Any site like this is all about generating traffic i.e. revenue, so I doubt that there's any interest in reducing the number of (potentially) paying members.
And if we're going to add any buttons, I'd much rather see specializations be verified, as the number of people pretending to specialize in very sensitive fields such as medicine (when the kind of blatantly basic question they keep asking reveals they clearly don't have a clue--in either the source or the target language...) must be a at least as high as the number of people claiming to be native in a language they do not even begin to master.
What is more, I for one don't believe that being native in a language is any kind of guarantee for grasping all the subtleties of that language. All you need to do to disprove that theory is read some of the crap that's being published nowadays...
| | | | KKastenhuber
Austria
Local time: 11:14
Russian to German
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| Warning when setting native language(s)? | Jun 22, 2012 |
Perhaps implementing some kind of warning on the page where one sets one's native language could help stop some of the abuse? I much prefer education over control, and since control seems to be quite difficult to put into effect anyways - page 7 of the thread, no solution in sight - maybe it's worth a shot? Or does something like this exist already? I can't remember!
I'm thinking of some kind of extra visible notice box with site rule number 6 and a short but clear explanation of th... See more Perhaps implementing some kind of warning on the page where one sets one's native language could help stop some of the abuse? I much prefer education over control, and since control seems to be quite difficult to put into effect anyways - page 7 of the thread, no solution in sight - maybe it's worth a shot? Or does something like this exist already? I can't remember!
I'm thinking of some kind of extra visible notice box with site rule number 6 and a short but clear explanation of the fact that wrongfully stating two native languages is both against site rules and professional ethics (and possibly a ProZ.com working definition of the term "native language" in order to help people).
It won't stop those who do it on purpose, but it might help prevent some of the more innocent cases. What do you think? ▲ Collapse
| | | | | A degree in a foreign country is not enough | Jun 22, 2012 |
Phil Hand wrote:
In practical terms, each Proz member would be allowed to state only one native language. If they wished to add a native language, they would have to be verified in a process much like verification of other credentials. As a suggestion: if you're claiming native proficiency in language X, and you can show you got a degree in a university in the relevant country, you could be allowed native status. That's far from perfect - I know a lot of Chinese people with degrees from Brit universities whose English is frankly terrible - but it's a standard that can be easily verified, and is relevant. If you can write degree level papers in English, then you are at the very least able to string a sentence together.
As you say, this method is far from perfect. But it would be better than what we have now, that´s for sure. I have lived in Germany for 12 years, I got my degree there, I was completely immersed in German life and at home I still am, because my partner is German and we speak only German at home, we watch German TV etc. Germany has become a part of me and who I am in many ways. It was not unusual that German natives thought I was also native because I speak with almost no foreign accent. But if one listens more carefully, I am sure one could notice that I am not native if the conversation is long enough (small grammar mistakes, maybe a certain word that is difficult for me to pronounce.... there are always hints). I would never ever claim to be native; a degree alone is no warranty at all.
Lisa Simpson, MCIL wrote:
I think we’re complicating issues a little here. I don’t see any need for birth certificates or such like. I envisage a scenario where we have one native language each, that’s it, if someone is quite insistent that they have a second then that can go for review to ProZ and criteria can be established for ascertaining the validity of the claim. There will always be a few who slip through the net (the NL/DE natives claiming EN as their native language), but this would deal with the bulk of the problems. An alternative to ProZ (the "manpower") vetting the second native language would be a peer review system whereby they submit an application for the second native and their colleagues can over a 3-month period (for the sake of argument) click on a button under their name to vote on whether they pass the test or not. I see minimum administration in that.
That is a very good suggestion. I also think it´s not necessary to ask for official documents that prove whether one is native in a particular language or not, since they really don´t prove anything. But I think it could be feasible to implement such a process in which translators that claim to have a second native language are reviewed by peer colleagues. They would evaluate the writing level of this certain person in that certain language. I think that´s the best proof that one could get.
But something should be done. If someone has troubles to understand something in their source language, posts a KudoZ question and wants only natives in the source language to answer, than it is not fair to get answers from someone who is not native although claiming so. A non-native could also answer, of course, but in that case the asker knows it and is free to be a bit more sceptical about the answer.
[Edited at 2012-06-22 13:15 GMT]
| | | | Rachel Fell
United Kingdom
Local time: 10:14
French to English
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| Am just wondering... | Jun 22, 2012 |
What is the largest number of pages generated in a single day on one forum topic?
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| Verification of native language though documents | Jun 22, 2012 |
I think this is a very strange idea. How would you do that? Many people were born in countries where there are a lot of ethnic languages, yet the Birth Certificate would still state the name of the country only, not which group the person identifies with. Also, somebody's mother does not have to be a native speaker of the language of the country where the child was born. Then, people could have immigrated at an early age and have most of their education in another language. How would you go ab... See more I think this is a very strange idea. How would you do that? Many people were born in countries where there are a lot of ethnic languages, yet the Birth Certificate would still state the name of the country only, not which group the person identifies with. Also, somebody's mother does not have to be a native speaker of the language of the country where the child was born. Then, people could have immigrated at an early age and have most of their education in another language. How would you go about verifying all of that. Does a slight accent really matter than much? In what sense, perhaps if you are asked to prepare some phonetic learning materials for the students of that language, but otherwise it has absolutely no importance. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | On certificates and suchlike | Jun 22, 2012 |
Nani Delgado wrote: Lisa Simpson, MCIL wrote:
I think we’re complicating issues a little here. I don’t see any need for birth certificates or such like. I envisage a scenario where we have one native language each, that’s it, if someone is quite insistent that they have a second then that can go for review to ProZ and criteria can be established for ascertaining the validity of the claim. ....
That is a very good suggestion. I also think it´s not necessary to ask for official documents that prove whether one is native in a particular language or not, since they really don´t prove anything.
Since (I think) I brought the subject up, I should stress that the idea was to suggest evidence to support (rather than prove) a claim of nativeness solely in the event of a challenge (by whatever mechanism challenges were made), not that every member needs to provide certificates and whatnot as a matter of course. After all, most people are honest about it; the hypothetical scheme is only to weed out the wrong'uns, and even then, only the wrong'uns that are spotted and challenged. And I just think if you're going to allow challenges, you have to make provision for a defence.
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