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Should “native language” claims be verified?
Thread poster: XXXphxxx (X)
DavidMTucker (X)
DavidMTucker (X)
United States
Local time: 10:46
Spanish to English
In agreement Jul 1, 2012

Phil Hand wrote:
....
But... while we can't say exactly what native language is, I think it's fair to say that we can be pretty clear about some things that it isn't.
....


In total agreement! I would dare say it would be easier to gain a consensus utilizing this point of view --what native language is not, versus what it is. Still, verification would be a difficult task and likely not very feasible. Taking the approach (after consensus) of what a native language is not, could it then fall to the moderators to verify, if you will, possible false native language claims? Of course the moderators should not be tasked with the impossible either.

For example purposes only, what if:

Participant A notices that participant B has claimed X as one of their native languages, but is unable to write a coherent sentence in X language. Participant A could then send a private note to moderator that it appears that (list particular examples) that participant B is falsely claiming X native language. The moderator could then privately contact participant B that native language X is being removed from profile based on examples of non-native use of the language, and then it would be up to participant B to prove/verify/convince the moderator that they should be allowed to claim X native language.

Just thinking out loud here on possible solutions to the issue at hand. My other suggestion was to simply remove "native languages" from the profile. I believe, though, that eventually there will be a solution to the issue that the majority (not 100%) will be in agreement on. Just not sure of the time frame to reach said agreement.

David Martin Tucker (Spanish Interpreter)

http://www.spanishdavid.com
https://www.facebook.com/SpanishDavid
http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidmartintucker
http://www.twitter.com @DavidMTucker


 
Ty Kendall
Ty Kendall  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 17:46
Hebrew to English
Mixed metaphors Jul 1, 2012

LilianBoland wrote:
These are translators, don't forget that, who have to be at least almost bilingual to be able to translate.


My dear Lilian. Confusion abounds.

Not even people who are completely bilingual are able to be translators, much less people who are, in your words, almost bilingual. Speaking two language does not a translator make.

How relevant is somebody's first language, or mother tongue, as some call it, to translation.


Very relevant. You may not like that fact as it contradicts your business model, but it remains a fact nonetheless. As Phil Hand pointed out earlier (as I'm sure I've done elsewhere in this mammoth thread yet I am forced to do again now) "native language" is accepted in the industry as a valuable criterion, I've already shown how the main professional bodies endorse the notion too. ProZ clearly signs up to this by making us list our native languages and making it a searchable option. The outsourcers clearly sign up to this by constantly posting jobs which restrict the possible applicants to native speakers of x language. You may disagree, as is your right, but you cannot dismiss something as irrelevant just because it doesn't suit you personally in an industry which clearly endorses it.

How could people who lie, even if it were true, which I doubt it is, steal your jobs?


Let's not make out we're dealing with a fairytale here. There are people on this thread who have pretty much owned up and admitted they list a fake native language (to be eligible for jobs or for "marketing" purposes). The fact that we have been able to elicit such information from a few willing to own up shows you the problem exists; people lie.
It's not so much about "stealing jobs", which is the drama-queen way of putting it. It's about lying to become eligible on jobs (thus increasing the competition) when you don't have the required pre-requisites and more often than not, do not have the competence either.
No other industry that I know of puts up with such deceit in their recruitment process. Companies scrutinize CVs and great lengths are taken to verify or falsify the information contained in them. Lying on a CV is a big no-no, so why should we turn a blind eye on lying on our profiles (in many cases our "equivalent" of a CV).

BTW, my metaphor about the spade was referring to not using the word "fraudster", not native language.
But, if you want to mix(-up) metaphors.......

There is nothing wrong with calling spade a spade when you know what a spade is, and all other people agree with your definition.


I call a spade a spade. A German calls it "der Spaten". Italians call it "la vanga". The French use "la bêche" Israelis call it "את".....etc etc. We all call it something different, but we all know what it is and what purpose it serves despite the fact we never agree on what to call it.

[Edited at 2012-07-01 07:05 GMT]


 
Catherine GUILLIAUMET
Catherine GUILLIAUMET  Identity Verified
Local time: 18:46
English to French
+ ...
In memoriam
And I do agree with Lilian Jul 1, 2012

LilianBoland wrote:

I absolutely agree with David, as always. The notion of native language is not a clear-cut thing.
How can people declare something if most don't even agree on the definition. How relevant is somebody's first language, or mother tongue, as some call it, to translation. It may be of interests to psychologists and linguists interested in various theories of language acquisition.


... particularly with the following:

How could people who lie, even if it were true, which I doubt it is, steal your jobs? If they cannot translate how can the pose any threat to a professional translator?


This fear that jobs may be stolen by incompetent "non-native liars" (according to some of the definitions we can read in this thread) is completely absurd.
OK, it might work once - maybe twice, if the client is totally incompetent too - but this client will quickly stop hiring the "liar" when s/he will see the final result: his/her message not understood by his/her own clients/target public.

Let's imagine one minute that I claim to be an English native speaker. I am sure that even after sweating over a FR>EN translation hours and hours long, the result of my work would be so awful that my client would reject it. Hence, s/he would not pay me or, at least, would never hire me again!
On the other hand, my numerous contributions in French - here on ProZ and on multiple web places - provide strong documented evidence of my writing skills in French and that French is my mother tongue.
And this very post provides strong documented evidence that English is not my"native language"

Moreover, ProZ is a commercial site. Being a member of this site is not the same thing than being a member of an university's or a translator association's one. This is obvious, I think.
However, it seems that the "ProZ.com Certified PRO Network" might be an asset to certify one's professionalism.

Finally, to answer those who didn't agree with my previous post - as is their right -I want to say that any attempt at segregation of any kind is for me an absolute "no-no" and never benefits anybody.

Enjoy your Sunday

Catherine


 
Nani Delgado
Nani Delgado  Identity Verified
Spain
German to Spanish
Yeah, right... Jul 1, 2012

Catherine GUILLIAUMET wrote:

This fear that jobs may be stolen by incompetent "non-native liars" (according to some of the definitions we can read in this thread) is completely absurd.
OK, it might work once - maybe twice, if the client is totally incompetent too - but this client will quickly stop hiring the "liar" when s/he will see the final result: his/her message not understood by his/her own clients/target public.



He will not only quickly stop hiring the "liar"; he will probably give up searching for translators here. Excellent! We scared another potentially good client away because the directory search is completely useless.


 
Ty Kendall
Ty Kendall  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 17:46
Hebrew to English
Exactamente! Jul 1, 2012

Nani Delgado wrote:

Catherine GUILLIAUMET wrote:

This fear that jobs may be stolen by incompetent "non-native liars" (according to some of the definitions we can read in this thread) is completely absurd.
OK, it might work once - maybe twice, if the client is totally incompetent too - but this client will quickly stop hiring the "liar" when s/he will see the final result: his/her message not understood by his/her own clients/target public.



He will not only quickly stop hiring the "liar"; he will probably give up searching for translators here. Excellent! We scared another potentially good client away because the directory search is completely useless.


Agree. I just don't understand why people think if dodgy translator "X" goes around lying his/her head off to get jobs and then ultimately screws them up, that it won't have at least some kind of knock-on effect. I just don't get the "no harm no foul" type attitude.

Damage is done regardless of the fact that agency x will never hire translator x again. Agency x comes away with a lower opinion of ProZ for sure, and probably a lower opinion of other translators (once bitten....), and translator x merrily goes on his/her way repeating the same cycle with other agencies/clients.

I'm sorry if I don't want to sit in a circle with these "translator Xs" singing Kumbaya for the sake of segregation.


 
Catherine GUILLIAUMET
Catherine GUILLIAUMET  Identity Verified
Local time: 18:46
English to French
+ ...
In memoriam
I'm not this translator "X" Jul 1, 2012

Ty Kendall wrote:

Nani Delgado wrote:

Catherine GUILLIAUMET wrote:

This fear that jobs may be stolen by incompetent "non-native liars" (according to some of the definitions we can read in this thread) is completely absurd.
OK, it might work once - maybe twice, if the client is totally incompetent too - but this client will quickly stop hiring the "liar" when s/he will see the final result: his/her message not understood by his/her own clients/target public.



He will not only quickly stop hiring the "liar"; he will probably give up searching for translators here. Excellent! We scared another potentially good client away because the directory search is completely useless.


Agree. I just don't understand why people think if dodgy translator "X" goes around lying his/her head off to get jobs and then ultimately screws them up, that it won't have at least some kind of knock-on effect. I just don't get the "no harm no foul" type attitude.

Damage is done regardless of the fact that agency x will never hire translator x again. Agency x comes away with a lower opinion of ProZ for sure, and probably a lower opinion of other translators (once bitten....), and translator x merrily goes on his/her way repeating the same cycle with other agencies/clients.

I'm sorry if I don't want to sit in a circle with these "translator Xs" singing Kumbaya for the sake of segregation.


Dear Ty,

I don't understand. I'm not this translatos "X".
Please see my profile. I don't claim to be native in any language but French, as explained and demonstrated in my last post.
And to answer one of your previous messages, I got a lot of jobs through ProZ, not via bidding to job offers, but via a lot of private messages sent to me via ProZ Mail, after potential clients saw my profile. I really think that it is a far better way to get jobs than bidding.
I'm following ProZ since it's birth in 1999 and never considered it as something else but a useful commercial site which is not responsible of the selection of its members.

Maybe, for those who want to "sit" only "in a circle" of confirmed-verified-certified-native professionals, the solution would be to subscribe to your respective national professional unions or academic institutions and to promote their respective directories/sites to potential clients, media, etc.. However such a strategy is very time-, energy-, work-demanding.
Are you ready to do the job, for free of course?
I wish you are.

Catherine


 
BeaDeer (X)
BeaDeer (X)  Identity Verified
English to Slovenian
+ ...
Excellent story on dishonesty and vested interest - and what is in the best interest of profession Jul 1, 2012

http://www.linguistlounge.org/












[Edited at 2012-07-01 09:00 GMT]


 
Ty Kendall
Ty Kendall  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 17:46
Hebrew to English
Oh dear Jul 1, 2012

My dear Catherine. Confusion continues to abound. I never said you were.

 
BeaDeer (X)
BeaDeer (X)  Identity Verified
English to Slovenian
+ ...
Professional credibility Jul 1, 2012

Catherine GUILLIAUMET wrote:
>ProZ is a commercial site. <


The spirit of camaraderie is not the point here at all.

Translation is a professional activity. Part of behaving professionally is to represent oneself honestly. I understand the need to make a living, but when someone lies about themselves, their qualifications - and stating that one is a native speaker of a language when they are not is not honest, is a lie, simply to improve their chances, this is unprofessional. It is also highly unfriendly to knowingly hurt the image of the site and its other members.

Added later:
Individuals show that they care for the community with their daily behaviour, their sense of responsibility. You are not acting responsibly by saying "anything goes". Professional credibility is built on the individual's sense to act responsibly to oneself, to others, the profession, the professional community.

Being nice without all this is just a lot of hypocrisy. The reason for the crisis is the lack of sense of personal responsibility. Do we want to behave like the banks that gambled with everything, lost it, and now expect us to foot the bill? The answer is no.

It is as simple as that, really. If you don't care about this, where is your professionalism? (And I do not mean yours personally.)

It is unbecoming to tell professional translators to go showcase themselves in the registers of their professional associations or do more there. Proz is a commercial platform marketing itself as the hub for professional translators. It is not a chat or dating site, Ebay, or a flea market. Professional translators have their profiles here to get additional exposure, in addition to their personal web sites, professional memberships in associations. Their expectations of Proz management to maintain credibility of the site they are associated with, are justified.

I started getting my first translation assignments some 24 years ago by going in person to all the people who I thought might have work for me. I know how difficult it is to get one's foot in the door. What I have learned is that without credibility one has nothing at all. This is equally true for individuals and companies. Proz is a business. Credibility is not something you can establish just with a neatly designed web site and a flowery resume. It is the most valuable possession a business person, or an ordinary person without a business, has. An "everything goes" attitude on such a site is in direct conflict with the meaning of professionalism.






















[Edited at 2012-07-01 10:14 GMT]

[Edited at 2012-07-01 10:15 GMT]

[Edited at 2012-07-01 10:16 GMT]

[Edited at 2012-07-01 10:58 GMT]

[Edited at 2012-07-01 11:02 GMT]

[Edited at 2012-07-01 11:05 GMT]


 
Mrudula Tambe
Mrudula Tambe  Identity Verified
India
Local time: 23:16
English to Marathi
+ ...
In memoriam
I agree that claims should be verified. Jul 1, 2012

But what about an expertise in ancient language(s)? e.g. I feel that I am good at Sanskrit. I did graduation in Sanskrit but at the same time neither of my parents speak it and nor it is spoken in my country commonly.

But then also, I feel it as close to my heart and I like to claim it as my native language.

(This is just a query out of a curiosity).


 
LilianNekipelov
LilianNekipelov  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 13:46
Russian to English
+ ...
I think this thread is driven by insecurity and fear Jul 1, 2012

I really believe that this thread is driven by insecurity and fear that someone will steal jobs from people who have grown-up in one country, and for one reason or another, are not getting picked enough. The reason for that is not that your jobs are being stolen by someone else, but that your rates are most likely too high, or the employer decided that you do not have enough experience in their field, especially. I don't think, for example, medical texts, especially texts related to research, sh... See more
I really believe that this thread is driven by insecurity and fear that someone will steal jobs from people who have grown-up in one country, and for one reason or another, are not getting picked enough. The reason for that is not that your jobs are being stolen by someone else, but that your rates are most likely too high, or the employer decided that you do not have enough experience in their field, especially. I don't think, for example, medical texts, especially texts related to research, should be translated by anyone else except doctors, or PAs ( Physician Assistants - US term for someone with higher medical education that can perform certain task doctors do under the supervision of a doctor). This is a real problem. Another thing is that rules are different in different countries. In the US, a US student who is at least a permanent resident does not even have to take any English proficiency tests that foreign students are required to take when applying to colleges. If they find out that this person's English is on a lower level through a different type of test, the person has to take additional remedial courses with everybody else who went to US elementary schools, all the way through college. Another thing, how many people whose parents spoke just one language, who have lived in one country all their lives and have education from school where the instruction was in that particular language, could translate something really complex from another language. 1%? Geniuses who have read a lot of books in that language? I agree that whether someone has all their education in one language and has lived mostly in one country, this might be important for the chief editor of the New York Times. I believe companies which deal with translation really need good editors. Even 100% native language, where the person's parents spoke the language, and the person has lived in one country for most of his or her life, does not guarantee anything. 40% of American students have problems with reading. This is according to one of the newest surveys. I personally don't care. You could verify anything you want. I just don't like the attitude of treating professional people like first grade students, which some people here are proposing. I honestly believe, that everyone, before being finally accepted for a particular job, should be required to translate 100 words, no more than that, from that particular text -- not any other text -- to prove that they could do the job. This should not take anyone more than 15 minutes, so I don't see the problem.Collapse


 
christela (X)
christela (X)
Well, there is another way Jul 1, 2012

Catherine GUILLIAUMET wrote:
Maybe, for those who want to "sit" only "in a circle" of confirmed-verified-certified-native professionals, the solution would be to subscribe to your respective national professional unions or academic institutions and to promote their respective directories/sites to potential clients, media, etc.. However such a strategy is very time-, energy-, work-demanding.
Are you ready to do the job, for free of course?
I wish you are.

Catherine


Of course, agree, this is highly efficient. This is one of the reasons why it is very useful to have a university or translator's school diploma in translation: claim verification already has already been done.
Clients know that.


 
Annamaria Amik
Annamaria Amik  Identity Verified
Local time: 19:46
Romanian to English
+ ...
Is it really efficient? Jul 1, 2012

christela wrote:

Catherine GUILLIAUMET wrote:
Maybe, for those who want to "sit" only "in a circle" of confirmed-verified-certified-native professionals, the solution would be to subscribe to your respective national professional unions or academic institutions and to promote their respective directories/sites to potential clients, media, etc.. However such a strategy is very time-, energy-, work-demanding.
Are you ready to do the job, for free of course?
I wish you are.

Catherine


Of course, agree, this is highly efficient. This is one of the reasons why it is very useful to have a university or translator's school diploma in translation: claim verification already has already been done.
Clients know that.


Well, in my country, translators can't get certified by the Ministry of Justice for a foreign language > national language pair unless they also pass a reverse translation test (national language > foreign language). The test is not difficult, but evaluation is exigent. Still, people can pass if they are proficient, albeit non-native, in the foreign language. So I suppose this verification is not sufficient for a "nativeness"=honesty verification which is the topic here (as we've been reminded in every other post). Besides, every student graduating from letters (regardless of how poor their foreign language skills are and how low their passing grades were) can get a certified/sworn translator's certificate, equivalent to what others - non-letters people - can get with the above-mentioned test. This certification method is the first one I personally would eliminate.


 
Samuel Murray
Samuel Murray  Identity Verified
Netherlands
Local time: 18:46
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
Let's face it: non-peer reviewed verification would be impossible to implement Jul 1, 2012

G'day everyone

ProZ.com's search system does not allow one to determine exactly how many people claim more than one native language, but you can get a reasonably close figure by simply searching for any language pair as the top/only language, and then selecting the source language as the native language.

To get an idea of how many people have declared more than one native language, I did a search in 5 languages plus English, in both directions. Here are the results (th
... See more
G'day everyone

ProZ.com's search system does not allow one to determine exactly how many people claim more than one native language, but you can get a reasonably close figure by simply searching for any language pair as the top/only language, and then selecting the source language as the native language.

To get an idea of how many people have declared more than one native language, I did a search in 5 languages plus English, in both directions. Here are the results (this is how many translators in those language combinations claim more than one native language):

EN-DE = 10%, 1000
EN-FR = 10%, 2000
EN-NL = 10%, 300
EN-ES = 7%, 5000
EN-ZH = 8%, 900

DE-EN = 20%, 2000
FR-EN = 20%, 2000
NL-EN = 45%, 1000
ES-EN = 40%, 7000
ZH-EN = 60%, 3000

The total for just these 10 language combinations is 25000 translators. Verifying so many translators with a reasonable degree of certainty would be an impossible task, if verification is done manually using trained staff.

The only solution that I can see here if any type of verification is to take place, would have to be peer review. In other words, every translator has to phone e.g. ten other ProZ.com translators for a 15 minute chat (randomly selected by ProZ.com's system), and then they vote "yes" or "no" on the question of whether the person is a native speaker. The chat can include an informal part and a part in which specific questions or topics must be addressed.

On the translator's profile page there can be a message e.g. "Native ability verified by 10 random peers: 7/10 for, 2/10 against, 1/10 unsure". If a translator is unhappy with his results, he can appeal one or twice, and be tested by another 10 randomly selected peers.

Participation in verification should be voluntary, but those who do participate should get some kind of benefit from it, e.g. a note on their profile saying "This translator helped verify the native language of 100 peers". Or they can get discounts on their new year's membership fee.

Samuel


[Edited at 2012-07-01 13:58 GMT]
Collapse


 
Ty Kendall
Ty Kendall  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 17:46
Hebrew to English
Lilian, with respect-you've really gone off on one Jul 1, 2012

LilianBoland wrote:
The reason for that is not that your jobs are being stolen by someone else, but that your rates are most likely too high, or the employer decided that you do not have enough experience in their field


Lilian, if I don't qualify for a job because my rates are too high, then I can guarantee I wouldn't want the job in the first place. Similarly, if the EMPLOYER???? (I think you mean client) decides I don't have the requisite subject knowledge, then fair enough (although I don't accept jobs where I don't have the knowledge).
However, I fail to see how these relate to the problem under discussion.


I don't think, for example, medical texts, especially texts related to research, should be translated by anyone else except doctors


Debatable, with a very tenuous connection to the current debate.


In the US, a US student who is at least a permanent resident does not even have to take any English proficiency tests that foreign students are required to take when applying to colleges.


If I moved to Slovakia to do a higher education degree, I'd expect them to test my Slovakian to make sure I can follow the course. I really don't see the problem. Of course foreign students need to sit proficiency exams before being admitted to a college/university.
Again, no real connection to the current debate.

how many people whose parents spoke just one language, who have lived in one country all their lives and have education from school where the instruction was in that particular language, could translate something really complex from another language. 1%? Geniuses who have read a lot of books in that language?


So let me get this straight....people from monolingual families don't make good translators.
Codswallop.
There's no basis, scientific or otherwise, for such a statement.

[Edited at 2012-07-01 15:31 GMT]


 
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Should “native language” claims be verified?






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