| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 90 91 92 93 94 95 96 97 98 99 100 101 102 103 104 105 106 107 108 109 110 111 112 113 114 115 116 117 118 119 120 121 122 123 124 125 126 127 128 129 130 131 132 133 134 135 136 137 138 139 140 141 142 143 144 145 146 147 148 149 150 151 152 153 154 155 156 157 158 159 160 161 162 163 164 165 166 167 168 169 170 171 172 173 174 175 176 177 178 179 180 181 182 183] > | Should “native language” claims be verified? Thread poster: XXXphxxx (X)
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| I don't like translation being called a business because it is art | Jul 1, 2012 |
I don't really like when people call translation a business -- it is art, more than anything else. I agree with the people who said that native language should not be used falsely just for advertising purposes: a broader, slightly vague definition of a native language is a different thing. What can be done, or even if anything should be done -- I have no clue. I also agree with Catherine, especially, that anything that divides people, or creates prejudices, is wrong.
I might hav... See more I don't really like when people call translation a business -- it is art, more than anything else. I agree with the people who said that native language should not be used falsely just for advertising purposes: a broader, slightly vague definition of a native language is a different thing. What can be done, or even if anything should be done -- I have no clue. I also agree with Catherine, especially, that anything that divides people, or creates prejudices, is wrong.
I might have an excellent solution to the problem. I think outsources should not be allowed to choose translators based on their native language, but rather qualifications, then nobody would lie. It is really biased not to allow qualified people to bid on jobs they are capable of doing. Many people, especially technical, or medical translators, can translate perfectly well into languages which are not their native, if they are really proficient in those languages, and prove real experts in the field they specialize in. You don't need to write like Shakespeare to translate medical texts. It is enough that your grammar and word usage are correct, and you write in comprehensible, grammatical language. It is more important that you understand the text correctly and can convey the right meaning into another language.
[Edited at 2012-07-01 15:01 GMT]
[Edited at 2012-07-01 15:13 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | BeaDeer (X) 
English to Slovenian
+ ...
| Mixing apples and oranges | Jul 1, 2012 |
Annamaria wrote:
>So I suppose this verification is not sufficient for a "nativeness"=honesty verification which is the topic here (as we've been reminded in every other post). Besides, every student graduating from letters (regardless of how poor their foreign language skills are and how low their passing grades were) can get a certified/sworn translator's certificate, equivalent to what others - non-letters people - can get with the above-mentioned test. This certification method is the ... See more Annamaria wrote:
>So I suppose this verification is not sufficient for a "nativeness"=honesty verification which is the topic here (as we've been reminded in every other post). Besides, every student graduating from letters (regardless of how poor their foreign language skills are and how low their passing grades were) can get a certified/sworn translator's certificate, equivalent to what others - non-letters people - can get with the above-mentioned test. This certification method is the first one I personally would eliminate. <
What you get as a sworn interpreter/legal translator by sitting the exam and joining the register maintained by the Ministry of Justice in Romania (other EU countries have this system in place as well) is by far not a proof of native proficiency.
This is a professional license which proves that you know the foreign language well enough to use it both ways for the stated purposes and that you know the judicial system well enough. It proves that you are fit to work at the court as an interpreter and to translate relevant texts and affix your stamp on them. It is not proof of native proficiency.
Translation programmes and degrees are relatively new. Many of my (senior) colleagues, for whom I have high regard, "only" have a 4-year degree in letters, humanities, an MA or PhD in languages. BUT they learned their craft - the areas they work in - so well that engineers and doctors or whoever they work with have no problem coming to them and discussing their needs with them because they know and respect professionalism and see them as their partners, not someone with "only a degree in letters".
Among them are engineers, doctors, lawyers, biologists, whose life path led them to translation, some with formal education in languages, some without it - some had to work hard to be as good in their languages as they are in their fields. If your goal is excellence you don't only go half way.
The key is willingness to learn. If you have no professional certification, obtain it. If you do not have the skills for it, work hard to develop them, and you will. And once you are aware of the effort and love you have put into your craft, you will know better than to sell your skills cheaply to a passer-by snapping their fingers.
To become a good translator, extremely high proficiency in two languages is only the beginning.
The basic prerequisite for starting to learn the craft.
Translators who obtain certification by taking exams at professional associations have to prove that they can translate to professional standards. It is not their linguistic skills or proficiency that are put to test - for this, you have various language proficiency tests (Cambridge for English, Delft for French etc.) or a degree in a foreign language. The skills tested in such exams are their translating skills.
And if your local association is not up to the task or you think their standards are too low, you can always take the exam at one of the associations abroad that offer certification to foreign nationals.
Added later:
The "you" in the post is meant generally, not personally.
[Edited at 2012-07-02 09:00 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | | What about a DNA test | Jul 1, 2012 |
What about a DNA test?I am just joking, but it is moving in this direction, definitely. I just think there is no way to verify anyone's nativeness of language, and in many countries it may not even be allowed. The best option would be to do something, so certain people don't lie about their native language to be able to quote on jobs they are capable of doing. As I said before, one of the options would be to remove the native language criterium that the outsourcers are using while setting the jo... See more What about a DNA test?I am just joking, but it is moving in this direction, definitely. I just think there is no way to verify anyone's nativeness of language, and in many countries it may not even be allowed. The best option would be to do something, so certain people don't lie about their native language to be able to quote on jobs they are capable of doing. As I said before, one of the options would be to remove the native language criterium that the outsourcers are using while setting the job requirements. Otherwise, perhaps there should also be an option native language -- private, so some people could take advantage of that, rather than lie.
[Edited at 2012-07-01 17:12 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Kay Denney
France
Local time: 02:50
French to English
kashew wrote:
Mother tongue (like the French langue maternelle) is, for me, a better term for the first language.
My children could both state that English is their "mother tongue" since their mother is English.
However, their native language is French, because they have lived all their lives here, gone to French schools, only learned English speaking with Mummy and as a foreign language at school.
For the record, my daughter only spoke English until the age of three when she started school, but her French is totally natural and her English is rather strained. It doesn't stop her from being top of the class in English but she couldn't pass a "native" test.
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Michele Fauble
United States
Local time: 17:50
Member (2006)
Norwegian to English
+ ...
| Becoming a native speaker | Jul 1, 2012 |
Native speakers spend all or substantial parts of their developmental years (childhood and adolescence) within a particular language-bound geographic area. They acquire the language because they are immersed in it. In everyday home life, in social activities, and at school, native speakers converse with other native speakers. Given substantial exposure to multiple cultures, some children grow up as native speakers of several languages.
In contrast, a near-native speaker usually acqu... See more Native speakers spend all or substantial parts of their developmental years (childhood and adolescence) within a particular language-bound geographic area. They acquire the language because they are immersed in it. In everyday home life, in social activities, and at school, native speakers converse with other native speakers. Given substantial exposure to multiple cultures, some children grow up as native speakers of several languages.
In contrast, a near-native speaker usually acquires language skills after childhood, and relies less on family and social immersion to learn the fundamentals.
http://www.americannationalcorpus.org/native-speaker.html ▲ Collapse
| | | | Ty Kendall
United Kingdom
Local time: 01:50
Hebrew to English
| Translation isn't a business......'fraid not | Jul 1, 2012 |
...Me got bills to pay!
I don't want to be an artist; they're almost all poor all their lives and only gain value posthumously. No thanks.
And we can't be telling outsourcers what they do or don't want. We can't forbid them from wanting to use native language as a criterion. As I've said (how many times now?) both the industry and Proz.com acknowledge native language as a worthwhile criterion for translation.
If outsourcers wish to choose using native lan... See more
| | | | | No block on offering the service | Jul 1, 2012 |
LilianBoland wrote:
I don't really like when people call translation a business
Interesting, but I fail to see the relevance; the nub and crux of this thread is about people lying, not to put too fine a point on it. And to be honest with you, I think the reason they lie is because it pays, or they think it pays, or it might pay. Love of money being the root of all evil, including lying about native language
I might have an excellent solution to the problem. I think outsources should not be allowed to choose translators based on their native language, but rather qualifications, then nobody would lie. It is really biased not to allow qualified people to bid on jobs they are capable of doing. Many people, especially technical, or medical translators, can translate perfectly well into languages which are not their native, if they are really proficient in those languages, and prove real experts in the field they specialize in. You don't need to write like Shakespeare to translate medical texts. It is enough that your grammar and word usage are correct, and you write in comprehensible, grammatical language. It is more important that you understand the text correctly and can convey the right meaning into another language.
A well-known phenomenon, in fact, yes, I agree.
There are any number of people with outstanding specialist terminology knowledge, many of whom can cobble together a sentence decent enough to serve the required purpose, without leaving the reader gobsmacked by the stylishness of the prose. On this we are agreed, I think.
I wouldn't want to stop those people doing that. I don't want to stop people offering services in as many language pairs as they can provide that service in .... er, in which they can provide that service! But being able to provide that service does not make them native speakers, and (for reasons given ad nauseum previously) I would very much prefer people did not lie about their native language skills. Which is the topic here!
[Edited at 2012-07-01 19:38 GMT]
| | | | Michele Fauble
United States
Local time: 17:50
Member (2006)
Norwegian to English
+ ...
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| It is the linguists who decide | Jul 1, 2012 |
Unfortunately, or fortunately, it is the linguists who decide what native language is, not any kind of industry, since linguistics is a science not a branch of industry. Mother's tongue it is not the tongue your mother spoke, but something much more complex. Sometimes it is the L1, sometimes the language the mother spoke. So this is not really the right understanding of the term here. Translation is an art, and people who feel that they don't want to be artists -- too bad for them.
... See more Unfortunately, or fortunately, it is the linguists who decide what native language is, not any kind of industry, since linguistics is a science not a branch of industry. Mother's tongue it is not the tongue your mother spoke, but something much more complex. Sometimes it is the L1, sometimes the language the mother spoke. So this is not really the right understanding of the term here. Translation is an art, and people who feel that they don't want to be artists -- too bad for them.
Another thing -- it is the translator who decides how much he or she charges not the client or customer who says how much he wants to pay. Translation is a free profession, and translators, exactly the same way as doctors and lawyers, decide what they charge.
[Edited at 2012-07-01 19:24 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | DavidMTucker (X)
United States
Local time: 17:50
Spanish to English
| Going back to the question... | Jul 1, 2012 |
Lisa Simpson, MCIL wrote:
....
Should greater controls be put in place to cut down on the number of false claims?
Lisa, my apologies to you. I realized that in my prior postings I never did actually answer your question. My answer is a resounding YES, greater controls should be in place.
There is, though, the practicality issue of implementing such controls on an open enrollment site such as Proz. IMHO it boils down to would members (paying and non-paying) be willing to pay to cover the cost of some type of verification system? The answer, IMHO, would depend on the reason members joined, and how they individually use the site. It could be well worth it for some to pay a fee for some type of verification, and for others it would not be of any value.
There is also the cost/benefit question for the site itself. How many members would the site be willing to lose if a verification process were put into place? How much to charge for said verifications to cover the costs? Would it be a benefit to have an "open enrollment Proz," as is now where anyone may join, and a "closed" Proz," where members pay a substantial fee to have all of their items verified, etc.?
In other words, the question proposed is simple and a good question. The answer, though, is not as cut and dry as it appears.
David Martin Tucker (Spanish Interpreter)
http://www.spanishdavid.com
https://www.facebook.com/SpanishDavid
http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidmartintucker
http://www.twitter.com @DavidMTucker
| | | | Samuel Murray
Netherlands
Local time: 02:50
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
| @Michele -- yes, with lots of money | Jul 1, 2012 |
This one is interesting. The paper isn't too long so it's an easy read. However, the NLI (native language identification) in that paper relates not to people who claim that English is their native language but to people who write English knowing that it is not their native language. An interesting titbit is a line saying that one can determine a native speaker by listening for a native accent (ouch!).
The article does not define "native language" but since the object of that method is not to catch out fraudsters but to simply identify people who don't claim to be native, a simple nationalistic definition is probably intended (i.e. the ability to speak or write like the average person who lives in the language's main country).
The main problem with that method is that although it can be very accurate and is statistically based, it requires lots and lots of money to test just one person. Essentially, a sufficiently large body of the person's writing must be analysed for errors (manually), and the errors must then be classified, and once all the errors have been classified and sorted and analysed, an error profile can be created.
Oh, another problem is that many of the error categories are the type of errors that even non-native *translators* would really not be making. One can expect translators to make far fewer non-native errors than ordinary non-native folk, so measuring translators using a method meant for non-translators might not catch out a translator.
Finally, I get the impression that the purpose of the profile is not so much to prove or disprove that the person is a native speaker, but rather to determine (after already assuming that the person is not a native speaker) what the person's likely native language is. In other words, if a Spanish person wrote in English, the method will be able to determine that the person is likely of Spanish origin but will not be able to prove that the person is not a native English speaker.
| | | | Samuel Murray
Netherlands
Local time: 02:50
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
| @Michele -- American National Corpus definition of "native speaker" | Jul 1, 2012 |
The defition of "native speaker" used by the American National Corpus to decide whether an English speaker is a native "American English" speaker is interesting because it overlaps only partially with many of the definitions touted in this thread. They admit that their definition is not a universal definition and is suited mostly for their own purpose.
However, for those who didn't read the URL, here it is:
You are definitely a native speaker if:
1 you were born in the language's main country and have lived there all your life, OR
2 you were born in some other country, but emigrated to the language's main country before you started school, and have lived in your new country ever since, OR
3 you have lived and went to school in the language's main country even if you did not speak that language at home, OR
4 you have lived in the language's main country since you left school, but when you lived in your previous country at least one of your parents were a native speaker of that language and spoke that language to you.
You may well be a native speaker if:
5 you have lived in in the language's main country since adolescence, OR
6 you have never lived in the language's main country, but both your parents were native speakers of that language and that language was used by them and you at home.
I suspect that many posters here would not regard #4 above as a reliable measure for native language, and I think #3 might also not be widely accepted by participants in this thread. In particular #5 and #6 would be rejected by most people here as an indication of native language.
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| A method to identify spies which is not relevant to translation | Jul 1, 2012 |
The methods of identifying people to determine whether they have spoken one language only for most of their lives was used before to identify spies, during World War 2. They would put the people suspected of spying into a hospital, give them some sleep medication and wait what first word would be when they woke up. You could tell by somebody's writing style which languages influenced his or her styles -- even of some famous English writers. I don't see any purpose in it whatsoever during peace t... See more The methods of identifying people to determine whether they have spoken one language only for most of their lives was used before to identify spies, during World War 2. They would put the people suspected of spying into a hospital, give them some sleep medication and wait what first word would be when they woke up. You could tell by somebody's writing style which languages influenced his or her styles -- even of some famous English writers. I don't see any purpose in it whatsoever during peace time, especially in relation to translation. As I said before, this might be important if you were looking for the Editor in Chief of The New York Times, or an editor at a famous publishing house. This is of no importance to translation. Even journalists writing for various American newspapers have different backgrounds -- of course very good English. English teachers at a university level are often people not necessarily born in the United States, not to mention high school teachers. Slight accent may only be of any importance if you are looking for voiceover artists -- then I agree, you have to listen to how the person speaks, but in such cases, even the tone of voice or the pitch might be of big importance. In the US, especially in big cities, most people have some kind of accent, not necessarily foreign, but more an more often their own.
[Edited at 2012-07-01 21:02 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Michele Fauble
United States
Local time: 17:50
Member (2006)
Norwegian to English
+ ...
| Linguists' definitions | Jul 1, 2012 |
Samuel Murray wrote:
The defition of "native speaker" used by the American National Corpus to decide whether an English speaker is a native "American English" speaker is interesting because it overlaps only partially with many of the definitions touted in this thread. They admit that their definition is not a universal definition and is suited mostly for their own purpose.
Even if we cannot arrive at a universal definition of native language, I think definitions used by linguists should carry more weight than a Wikipedia definition or the self-serving definitions that allow non-native speakers to make an inaccurate claim on their ProZ profiles.
[Edited at 2012-07-01 21:21 GMT]
| | | | XXXphxxx (X)
United Kingdom
Local time: 01:50
Portuguese to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | @ LilianBoland | Jul 1, 2012 |
I confess to being baffled by many of your comments. In order to try and understand where you're coming from I wonder if you could please explain what your definition of a native language is, i.e. how and why are Polish and English your native languages?
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