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| L2 interference | Sep 14, 2012 |
I rather wonder if L2 interference doesn't actually decrease rather that increase. Case in point: I remember when I started translating my colleagues caught me out for 'Dunglish' (English with Dutch interference) mistakes more often then I'd like to admit. Now, years later, I like to think that I have overcome this problem, I guess simply through re-emersion in my native language as a translator and awareness of the pitfalls, even though I've lived in the Netherlands and spoken Dutch for everyda... See more I rather wonder if L2 interference doesn't actually decrease rather that increase. Case in point: I remember when I started translating my colleagues caught me out for 'Dunglish' (English with Dutch interference) mistakes more often then I'd like to admit. Now, years later, I like to think that I have overcome this problem, I guess simply through re-emersion in my native language as a translator and awareness of the pitfalls, even though I've lived in the Netherlands and spoken Dutch for everyday purposes nearly all that time.
Olly ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Post removed: This post was hidden by a moderator or staff member because it was not in line with site rule | Ty Kendall 
United Kingdom
Local time: 18:50
Hebrew to English
Michele Fauble wrote: traductorchile wrote:
When I read that of the "native mistakes" and "non-native mistakes", ...
Cuando leí lo de los errores nativos y los errores no nativos ...
My thoughts exactly Michele.
| | | | Samuel Murray
Netherlands
Local time: 19:50
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
| @Little elephant pickle herring ;-) | Sep 14, 2012 |
Olly Pekelharing wrote:
I rather wonder if L2 interference doesn't actually decrease rather that increase.
If you're referring to me, remember that our situations are very different. Firstly, Dutch and Afrikaans are much closer to each other than English and Dutch. Secondly, I'm still learning Dutch (I could not speak it fluently when I was still in South Africa). Thirdly, I don't translate into or from Dutch, so the interference from Dutch is something that I deal with during translation but not within translations. Lastly, I think our location situation is different from each other.
A weird thing that's happening (very slightly, so it came as a surprise when I first spotted it) is that although I never really used blatant Afrikaansisms in my English in South Africa, I have noticed some Dutchisms creep into my English here in the Netherlands. I have even noticed errors that Dutch people typically make (to my shame, one time I didn't get my sin (or something similar)).
Samuel
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| IMO very similar opinion, yet slightly different views | Sep 14, 2012 |
Bernhard Sulzer wrote: José Henrique Lamensdorf wrote:
It's actually Portuguese written with English words. That's the worst sin a non-native can commit in translation. IMHO that's the major reason why truly native translators want so desperately to have people like me ousted from their cohort on Proz.
Can you blame them if you look at writing that is often atrocious? That's what started this thread. I'm not referring to yours.
I understood we were discussing native writing here, excluding writing quality on itself as a different issue. Natives writing in their own L1 may display the gamut spanning from crap to nectar. Our issue at hand is when their output in L2 is tarnished by L1.
José Henrique Lamensdorf wrote:
The key to being taken for a native speaker of a language - when one technically isn't - is being able to THINK in that language. Now, If I don't understand squat from that medical text, I can't think about it, and all that's left for me is to translate the words, not the ideas. This should prove my point here.
One possible front in searching for a definition of 'native speaker' could be to consider a language in which an individual is able to THINK for hours, or days in a row, as needed or required.
Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
My definition of native speaker/native language is all about acquiring it during childhood. I would disagree that you can call yourself a native speaker when you can THINK in that language - I can think in English as well as in German, as long as I want, and about quite complicated things.
You seem to be implying that the way you write (or is it grammatical accuracy, really) reveals the way you think and if it looks like the writing of a native speaker, you can call yourself a native speaker.
Maybe you are one of the few who have mastered a second language to a degree that makes you indistinguishable from a native speaker (even a native language speaker AND translator). I just have a hard time believing that.
Me too. It was gradual, but as more and more people who had only heard me speaking English asked, "You are from California, right?", and I denied it immediately, it made me think that I might have crossed some invisible boundary.
I only "rubber-stamp" myself as a native speaker here on Proz because there are important customer services issues (my top priority - translation is just one of the means to do it) that would go unserved if I didn't. I feel there are occasions I must get through that stonewall to help these clients.
And yet, getting through is not a desperate attempt to grab that job for myself. Now and then they let me see the job, which enables me to tell them that their best option will be to hire some native or native-like translator actually living in the US, specialized in a certain area, when it's the case. When I know someone adequate for that specific job, I provide them the colleague's e-mail, wish them all good luck, and step out.
That's my marketing trick. If everything works out well, that prospect will know they can count on me for reliable, unbiased guidance. If they ever need my specific skills, I'll be receiving a job assignment on a silver platter.
This has also tuned my ear to accents. I began to notice that some truly native Americans and Canadians have a stronger foreign accent (mostly ES, IT, JP, CN) than mine. As this doesn't make them any less native than they are, it doesn't make me any more so.
Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
For example, when you say "If I don't understand squat from that medical text", I wouldn't think that a native English speaker wrote that. But ask a real native speaker. And I don't mean to offend you. Your command of English is very good. I believe even native speakers will say that.
A native will slip now and then in their own language. I realized that yesterday, as I was writing that post just back from the hospital, where I got a shot to free me from a devastating sinusitis that had been clouding my mind for a week or so.
Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
I'm not trying to give you a hard time but I suggest we must be able to exclude all those from the "club" who argue that their command of the language is "good enough" to be considered native when it's clearly not.
That's where we agree (on kickin'em out), however each of is adopting a slightly different view.
I'd have dozens of different stories, however I'll 'assemble' just one to illustrate the point here.
If I understood it correctly, you'd consider a native someone who was born in X-land, lived and studied there until the age of, say, 12-16. Then the entire family moved to Z-land, but they kept speaking X-ese every day at home. The person went on studying in Z-ese, of course speaking it every day everywhere, later at work, and so on.
IMHO that person's command of X-ese will be somewhat limited to household matters and to their youth in terms of intellectual level, unless they studied X-ese in some local 'XSL' school, used it at work, etc. etc. If they didn't, I wouldn't expect them to be able to translate into X-ese for any business purposes.
Worst of it, if that person went back to X-land, say, four decades later (and I happen know such a case), they'll most likely be taken for an X-land 'classical theater' actor/actress.
My view is that if a person from Z-land, whatever their personal history may be, from their delivery in speech and writing in Y-ese is taken by native residents of Y-land as one of them, that person is entitled to say ther are (equivalent to) a native speaker of Y-ese.
If Proz doesn't have an "equivalent to native" label, I can't help it. This is where we differ.
| | | | | little elephant? | Sep 14, 2012 |
No I was referring to myself. What's with the 'little elephant'? And its pickled herring, if you please
| | | | Samuel Murray
Netherlands
Local time: 19:50
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
Olly Pekelharing wrote: What's with the 'little elephant'? And its pickled herring, if you please
I was making fun of your name. I thought it would be okay, since the subtopic is language interference.
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Course its OK, but where'd you get 'little elephant' from? Olly the Elephant?
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XXXphxxx (X)
United Kingdom
Local time: 18:50
Portuguese to English
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TOPIC STARTER | Elephant talk - definitely OT | Sep 14, 2012 |
Olly Pekelharing wrote:
Olly the Elephant?
Isn't it Nellie the Elephant?
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C'mon Samuel, what's the story? I've been called pickled herring, pickle-fish and pickled onion, but never little elephant. Answer quick before the moderator catches ya.
| | | | Samuel Murray
Netherlands
Local time: 19:50
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
| No secret... olly... olifant | Sep 14, 2012 |
Olly Pekelharing wrote:
C'mon Samuel, what's the story? I've been called pickled herring, pickle-fish and pickled onion, but never little elephant. Answer quick before the moderator catches ya.
I did not want to leave "olly" untranslated, so I went for the quickest, closest match. Olly, olifant.
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Samuel Murray wrote: Olly Pekelharing wrote:
C'mon Samuel, what's the story? I've been called pickled herring, pickle-fish and pickled onion, but never little elephant. Answer quick before the moderator catches ya. I did not want to leave "olly" untranslated, so I went for the quickest, closest match. Olly, olifant.
Bad choice, Samuel.
More likely the Cockney way to say Holly. You are erring. That's why he prefers herring.
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José Henrique Lamensdorf
Michele Fauble
Ty Kendall
and others.
When people can’t support their words with sound arguments or they do it with looping arguments and all is a mere “I feel”, “it sounds”, “I think”, they only prove that the foundation on which they want to build their case is very weak.
This thread is so long, that it's been quite some time now that people just keep on repeating themselves. It's a bit of fresh air when someo... See more José Henrique Lamensdorf
Michele Fauble
Ty Kendall
and others.
When people can’t support their words with sound arguments or they do it with looping arguments and all is a mere “I feel”, “it sounds”, “I think”, they only prove that the foundation on which they want to build their case is very weak.
This thread is so long, that it's been quite some time now that people just keep on repeating themselves. It's a bit of fresh air when someone brings in something new, or offers a different view. Of course, those who are stubborn and intolerant will always be like a hamster in a wheel.
[Edited at 2012-09-14 14:09 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | BeaDeer (X)
English to Slovenian
+ ...
| Apologies for another off-topic post... | Sep 14, 2012 |
Samuel Murray wrote:
for if non-native errors can be known, they surely can be taught not to commit.
And so they are. At uni level. A native Slovenian with a degree in English and working into English will still make errors or an occasional error, however slight, due to the interference of his first language. One of the advantages of our translation programme is that students must study contrastive analysis (together with translation into English) because it makes students aware of the differences in how things are expressed in translation in both languages.
Ty Kendall wrote:
SLA research has shown that the grammatical features which are often taught first, such as third person verb endings etc, are actually the last to be successfully acquired/mastered by the L2 learner.
Not necessarily true for all languages. Take Slovenian, for example - Slavonic group, highly inflected (six cases for nouns, adjectives and pronouns, three genders, four tenses, the dual number in addition to the singular and plural, the verb has 8 patterns with specific endings), and yet word endings are not the most difficult language items for us to learn. The most difficult, if not impossible to get 100% right, because we have none, are the articles (although there are workarounds, even when you can't be 100% sure). A Slovenian native speaker who has studied EN at university level is most likely to slip up on occasional collocations, phrasal verbs, some prepositions. An experienced translator with a uni degree can also easily spot a translator into SL whose English does not go beyond the secondary level English learning. An interesting observation, perhaps: a Slovenian with a degree in English (i.e., well trained) is very unlikely to write "it's" instead of "its", something that does happen to native speakers of English.
| | | | Ty Kendall
United Kingdom
Local time: 18:50
Hebrew to English
BeaDeer wrote:
Not necessarily true for all languages.
I was referring to English, English being learned as an L2. I have not really read much for SLA for other languages. And I have to disagree that someone who has been to university will magically not make non-native errors, this simply isn't the case. Indeed, it's not even the case for NATIVE speakers,...even highly educated native speakers can make certain mistakes, especially punctuation errors.
An interesting observation, perhaps: a Slovenian with a degree in English (i.e., well trained) is very unlikely to write "it's" instead of "its", something that does happen to native speakers of English.
The difference is that when English people make that "mistake" it's not because they don't know the difference, they do (they would have been taught it at school - our education system isn't THAT bad) ....they just don't tend to care (non-linguists anyway).
Moreover, puntuation "errors" are not a result of incomplete acquisition, like non-native errors.
[Edited at 2012-09-14 16:41 GMT]
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