| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 90 91 92 93 94 95 96 97 98 99 100 101 102 103 104 105 106 107 108 109 110 111 112 113 114 115 116 117 118 119 120 121 122 123 124 125 126 127 128 129 130 131 132 133 134 135 136 137 138 139 140 141 142 143 144 145 146 147 148 149 150 151 152 153 154 155 156 157 158 159 160 161 162 163 164 165 166 167 168 169 170 171 172 173 174 175 176 177 178 179 180 181 182 183] > | Should “native language” claims be verified? Thread poster: XXXphxxx (X)
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| tell that to the Germans | Aug 1, 2012 |
LilianBoland wrote:
As regards English as a native language, yes, soon many young people will claim it as their native a language, especially that many, in Europe, speak it better than their mother tongue, or L1. This is natural. This is what happens when one language takes over the world.
Which secondary school system in Europe uses English as the language in which all subjects are taught (even foreign language courses aren't just taught in that foreign language) except the ones in countries where English is the official language (England, Scotland, Ireland, ...)
When do you think will English become the official "native" language/"mother tongue" in Germany?! 
Add on: As Marina pointed out later, there are English-language schools in non-English- speaking countries. I am referring to secondary schools which use the "native" language of a non-English-speaking country or region if you will, in other words, the vast majority of secondary schools in that country or region.
B
[Edited at 2012-08-02 00:24 GMT]
| | | | Kay Denney 
France
Local time: 13:18
French to English
LilianBoland wrote:
I just meant for the purposes of translation. Can you teach, if you have not completed certain programs?Is that your claim, Sheila, that a person without university education can be a good translator? Perhaps in the old times, when some people had just high school education -- in 1920s, as an example, where they were required to study two or three languages thoroughly -- they might have been able to translate. I don't know. There might be some excepts, but really very few.
There might be exceptions, Sheila, especially in the case of people who did not get a chance to get college education due to some personal problems, or wars, and they had really good high school education, some courses -- they have studied a lot on their own and had a lot of experience, but such people would be very rare, really more like one person in 100,000.
I am just convinced, Sheila, you might be one of the exceptions. Some college experience is really necessary, I think, for most translators.
Well there are always exceptions.
In my day it was perfectly possible to be taken on as a junior in all sorts of companies and get experience on the job, which is what I did. I was asked to do a variety of tasks, one being translation, and since I managed OK I was given more.
I do have a Masters now, but I got it on the strength of my work experience rather than by studying at uni.
I learned only on the job and the university professors who examined the file I submitted for the Master had nothing but praise for my work.
And "my day" was not the 1920s. I'm only just heading for 50.
Well I suppose I should feel great being told I'm one in 100,000. Only 900,000 short of being one in a million.
Ah and I got my Master from a French uni but I would never try to pass as a native. 30 years living here this year, having arrived at the age of 19.
(And I never learned anything about Chomsky either and it hasn't stopped me getting on as a translator.)
Oh and don't bring patriotism into the discussion. Patriotism is the most idiotic of notions. How can I be proud of being a Brit, when it's an aspect of me I had no control over?
| | | | | Maybe not in Germany, Bernhard, | Aug 1, 2012 |
or France, and a few other countries, but teenagers in many European countries speak English better now than their own native languages, and they have more interest in learning English, or reading books in English than in their native tongues. I don't know how many high schools there are in Europe where the language of instruction is English -- there are some. I have not been to Europe for twenty years. This is what people have been telling me, and what I read.
| | | | Oliver Walter
United Kingdom
Local time: 12:18
German to English
+ ...
Sheila Wilson wrote:
... my mum learnt the three Rs, coming from the other end of the social ladder.
Ah, yes: Romanian, Russian, Rhaetian.
Oliver
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Marina Steinbach
United States
Local time: 07:18
Member (2011)
English to German
| I am not a German citizen. | Aug 1, 2012 |
Bernhard Sulzer wrote: When do you think will English become the official "native" language/"mother tongue" in Germany?!
I am not a German citizen. However, I visited the John-F.-Kennedy-Schule, a German-American Community School in Berlin-Zehlendorf, from 1971 to 1973. So far as I recall, we mainly spoke English at this school.
You can find information on it here: http://www.jfks.de/
I never thought that my old report cards would some day be of interest...
| | | | Ty Kendall
United Kingdom
Local time: 12:18
Hebrew to English
Marina Steinbach wrote: Bernhard Sulzer wrote: When do you think will English become the official "native" language/"mother tongue" in Germany?! I am not a German citizen. However, I visited the John-F.-Kennedy-Schule, a German-American Community School in Berlin-Zehlendorf, from 1971 to 1973. So far as I recall, we mainly spoke English at this school. You can find information on it here: http://www.jfks.de/ I never thought that my old report cards would some day be of interest...
I think Bernhard's point was that English is not the usual language of instruction in Germany, or any other country where English is not the official language.
Obviously these types of hybrid schools catering mainly for international and expat children will be an exception to that. Even on their website they describe themselves as "unique":
"JFKS is a unique public school of more than 1700 German, American, and other international students...."
But as a matter of course, in the average German/European etc. High School, English is not the language of instruction, nor even the language of the playground to boot.
| | | | | I'm not a native of any language | Aug 1, 2012 |
Maybe someone has already mentioned what I am about to write. If this is the case, I'm sorry.
All I can say is that I used to be a native speaker of English, born and educated in the south-east of England. When I was 18, my English was excellent. I got grade A in my GCSE.
However, I came to Spain in 1977 and Spanish is the language I use all the time: I dream in Spanish, I think in Spanish, I do everything (except translate) in Spanish.
If I'm honest with... See more Maybe someone has already mentioned what I am about to write. If this is the case, I'm sorry.
All I can say is that I used to be a native speaker of English, born and educated in the south-east of England. When I was 18, my English was excellent. I got grade A in my GCSE.
However, I came to Spain in 1977 and Spanish is the language I use all the time: I dream in Spanish, I think in Spanish, I do everything (except translate) in Spanish.
If I'm honest with myself, I am not a native of any language! My English isn't too bad though I hardly ever have the opportunity to speak to other natives. On the other hand, my Spanish is excellent but people recognise me because of my accent!
Am I the only person with this problem? ▲ Collapse
| | | | Michele Fauble
United States
Local time: 04:18
Member (2006)
Norwegian to English
+ ...
| Visit vs attend | Aug 1, 2012 |
Marina Steinbach wrote:
I am not a German citizen. However, I visited the John-F.-Kennedy-Schule, a German-American Community School in Berlin-Zehlendorf, from 1971 to 1973.
I think you meant that you attended that school. The German 'besuchen' does not translate as 'visit' when attendance at school is meant.
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| you're just rusty | Aug 1, 2012 |
Helena Chavarria wrote:
Maybe someone has already mentioned what I am about to write. If this is the case, I'm sorry.
All I can say is that I used to be a native speaker of English, born and educated in the south-east of England. When I was 18, my English was excellent. I got grade A in my GCSE.
However, I came to Spain in 1977 and Spanish is the language I use all the time: I dream in Spanish, I think in Spanish, I do everything (except translate) in Spanish.
If I'm honest with myself, I am not a native of any language! My English isn't too bad though I hardly ever have the opportunity to speak to other natives. On the other hand, my Spanish is excellent but people recognise me because of my accent!
Am I the only person with this problem?
Hi Helena, I am sure you're not the only one with that problem or the only one who thinks they have that problem. But I applaud your honesty.
I challenge any native English speaker to point out any errors in your entry above that would show that you are NOT a native speaker of English.
The way you use English, even if you make mistakes, is typical for a native speaker. But don't take my non-native word for it.
Is it possible to lose your native language or not even acquire a native language? I believe it's possible to become less proficient (for lack of another word) but once you have a native language - they way you acquired it (until you were 18) - it is very unlikely that you're going to lose it permanently. I bet if you moved back to England or find some other way to use it on a daily basis (listening, speaking, and writing) you will gain back whatever you think you lost. But that's just my theory.
On the other hand, if you had learned a language from say age 2 to age 5 and then learned another language from age 5 to 8 and another one from 8-12 and another from 12-16 and another one from 16-18, you could theoretically not have acquired any of these languages to a degree that would make you a native speaker. But I would guess that the language you learned between 12 and 16 might be the native language.
It' also hard to imagine learning 3 or 4 languages at the same time within the same age period (let's say between 6-18) and speak them all to a degree that would make them all one's native languages.
What I want to say is that it's hard not to have one and only one native language. Two, maybe. But three or four, ... no! (Geniuses excluded)
It's also hard to lose your native language, I'm sure.
In your case, if you feel you're rusty, practice it. You'll get it all back.
B
[Edited at 2012-08-02 08:52 GMT]
| | | | | clarification | Aug 1, 2012 |
Marina Steinbach wrote: Bernhard Sulzer wrote: When do you think will English become the official "native" language/"mother tongue" in Germany?! I am not a German citizen. However, I visited the John-F.-Kennedy-Schule, a German-American Community School in Berlin-Zehlendorf, from 1971 to 1973. So far as I recall, we mainly spoke English at this school. You can find information on it here: http://www.jfks.de/ I never thought that my old report cards would some day be of interest...
Hi Marina,
That school is indeed an exception. There are schools like that in Germany. There are German schools here in the US, in Washington DC, for example.
But I was talking about "German schools" in Germany.
B
| | | | | Riding a bike | Aug 2, 2012 |
Helena Chavarria wrote:
Maybe someone has already mentioned what I am about to write. If this is the case, I'm sorry.
All I can say is that I used to be a native speaker of English, born and educated in the south-east of England. When I was 18, my English was excellent. I got grade A in my GCSE.
However, I came to Spain in 1977 and Spanish is the language I use all the time: I dream in Spanish, I think in Spanish, I do everything (except translate) in Spanish.
If I'm honest with myself, I am not a native of any language! My English isn't too bad though I hardly ever have the opportunity to speak to other natives. On the other hand, my Spanish is excellent but people recognise me because of my accent!
Am I the only person with this problem?
No, Helena, you are far from being the only one who has or has had that problem. My problem is the mirror image of yours.
In 1972, in my early twenties, little after graduating from college in Argentina, I came to the U.S. to get my PhD in Chemical Engineering. Upon graduation, I returned to Argentina where I taught, in Spanish, what I have learned in English. By 1979, I was back in the U.S., this time for the duration.
Since then, I got two additional degrees (MBA and JD) at a U.S. university, and worked in the U.S., either as an engineer or as a lawyer. Many of the documents I wrote at that time, in English, of course, were submitted to several U.S. courts and agencies. I am a USPTO-registered Patent Attorney and I have prosecuted many patent applications. Needless to say, in English.
Can I translate into English documents in my areas of specialization (law and chemical engineering)? Of course I can. If “Legalese” were a language, “English Legalese” would be my “native Legalese”, but English can never be my native language. While I have acquired, in the nearly 40 years I have lived and professionally worked in the US, a “feel” for the English language, I can never be 100% sure that said “feel” is a true “gut feeling” and not just plain “stomachache.”
You might not be sure, Helena, whether you can handle, as a professional, the English language, but “native language”, as riding a bycicle, it is always there, telling you how to do it.
Best regards (muchos saludos) from the other side of the mirror.
Luis
| | | | Marina Steinbach
United States
Local time: 07:18
Member (2011)
English to German
| Klogschieter! | Aug 2, 2012 |
Michele Fauble wrote: Marina Steinbach wrote:
I am not a German citizen. However, I visited the John-F.-Kennedy-Schule, a German-American Community School in Berlin-Zehlendorf, from 1971 to 1973.
I think you meant that you attended that school. The German 'besuchen' does not translate as 'visit' when attendance at school is meant.
Klogschieter! Have I mentioned that I was born in Northern Germany and am also able to speak Low German (Plattdeutsch)?
I really don't understand why you are lecturing me here...
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Heinrich Pesch
Finland
Local time: 14:18
Member (2003)
Finnish to German
+ ...
| Is English the problem? | Aug 2, 2012 |
I noticed this thread yesterday, when it had grown already to 85 pages!
I believe this problem is specific to English. It feels like that English speakers are feeling threatened by the vast amount of people who are not born natives but are competing with them on the translation market. Other languages do not have this problem.
Don't you think it has to be left to the market who is a good translator and who not? Making non-native mistakes in a translation is less serious... See more I noticed this thread yesterday, when it had grown already to 85 pages!
I believe this problem is specific to English. It feels like that English speakers are feeling threatened by the vast amount of people who are not born natives but are competing with them on the translation market. Other languages do not have this problem.
Don't you think it has to be left to the market who is a good translator and who not? Making non-native mistakes in a translation is less serious than claiming to be a medical translator and make potentially life-threatening mistakes in your work. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Phil Hand
China
Local time: 19:18
Chinese to English
These questions have been raised multiple times during the thread. Just to give you quick answers that I think most people on the thread would agree with:
Heinrich Pesch wrote:
I believe this problem is specific to English...Other languages do not have this problem.
That might well be right, but I'm not sure it's relevant. English is pretty important as a language, and it's worth upholding basic standards in English, as it is in any language. The fact that it's English-specific might make solving the problem easier, though.
Don't you think it has to be left to the market who is a good translator and who not?
I think everyone agrees with that idea. I'm not sure what you're saying - do you think that Proz is not part of the market?
The clients think native competence is a useful criterion. In my pair, there are currently 19 jobs showing on the front page. Of these, the client/outsourcer specifies a native language requirement (some English, some Chinese) in 14. The market (in the sense of buyers) has decided what they want. They come to Proz to find what they want. But Proz is now actively hindering them from getting it by allowing people to misreport their native languages.
Making non-native mistakes in a translation is less serious than claiming to be a medical translator and make potentially life-threatening mistakes in your work.
I would have thought that we might aim a little higher in our work than "none of my mistakes have ever killed anyone".
| | | | | It is absolutely possible to lose your native language | Aug 2, 2012 |
Some people just believe that a native language is like walking. I told you my mother almost totally lost her native language, at the age of 6.. I know many children, now teenagers, or young adults, who live in the Unites States and lost their L1s -- the language they speak could not be considered even proficient, not to say any kind of native. It is not rusty -- they would have to completely re-learn the language, and spend a few years in the country where it is spoken to speak it again: I am ... See more Some people just believe that a native language is like walking. I told you my mother almost totally lost her native language, at the age of 6.. I know many children, now teenagers, or young adults, who live in the Unites States and lost their L1s -- the language they speak could not be considered even proficient, not to say any kind of native. It is not rusty -- they would have to completely re-learn the language, and spend a few years in the country where it is spoken to speak it again: I am not even sure what the result would be. I personally did not forget any languages I learned in my childhood because I love languages, not even some Hungarian I learned as a child, but I could never write a book in any of them., or even a dissertation. It is possible to learn a few languages at the same time at an early age or at any other age, as a matter of fact. I learned a few languages in my childhood -- Polish, Lithuanian, Russian and English -- by the age of six. I don't have any formal education in Lithuanian, so I would never attempt to translate anything into it.
And, I absolutely agree with Ari -- if anybody from England or Australia prepared US legal documents they would not sound right or "native at all" -- even documents prepared by regular users of AE born here who had nothing to do with law would not sound "native". AE legal language is a different language, almost -- you learn it in law school, or other types of schools for paralegals or court interpreters. Many articles have have to be omitted, not all of them, though -- certain constructions have to be used, many almost archaic terms and many Latin terms are also used.
I don't agree with you, however, that your L1 is always there and you can feel everything. Maybe you have learned English at a later age and have been speaking Spanish at home all of your life. Ask some of the children who came here at the age of 10 or 15 even and speak mostly English -- what they feel in their L1. Each person is different in fact and there are many things people cannot imagine, especially if they have never lived in a multilingual environment for a long time. The fact that you can translate into Spanish can serve as a proof that your Spanish is still very good, which might not be the case with many people.
I absolutely agree with Heinrich -- it is all about business or some offended pride. Nobody would even care if I declared Lithuanian as my native Language -- a language I love but I would probably make some mistakes in, especially writing about business things, or other things I have never learned in that language, but they care about somebody's English that I ,personally, learned in my childhood, and have been speaking it exclusively, almost for the last thirty years out of my forty something, and in which I have all my higher education. To add, English is one of the most diversed languages now -- due to the fact that there are many different varieties of English, not just BE and AE, but local varieties which differ from state to state: English from India, Jamaica. Yes, it is all about prejudice.
[Edited at 2012-08-02 07:50 GMT]
[Edited at 2012-08-02 07:56 GMT]
[Edited at 2012-08-02 08:10 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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