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This question was closed without grading. Reason: Errant question
Aug 31, 2021 10:02
2 yrs ago
39 viewers *
French term

en souffrance

French to English Other Safety Health and Safety advice
je peux aussi dire Stop :
Si un collègue s’apprête à prendre la voiture alors qu’il n’est pas bien
Si un collectif de travail est en souffrance

This relates to when a worker should stop the work if the safety regulations are not being applied. I can't think of how the usual meanings for this term would fit here.

Ideas appreciated.
Proposed translations (English)
2 +2 in danger
3 pending
4 -2 is/are suffering
3 -1 in distress / upset / in pain
3 -1 low morale
2 falling behind
References
http://www.cedip.developpement-durable.gouv.fr/les-competences-d-un-collectif-de-travail-a102.html

Discussion

Brendan McNally (asker) Sep 3, 2021:
In the end I went with "in difficulty" as this is a broad term which would cover many of the ideas expressed here.
Thanks all for your ideas.
Daryo Sep 1, 2021:
It would help to know what is in the rest of the text, what other examples are given of situations that would justify stopping the work of a whole team.

If this is the only mention of "stopping a whole work group" then it must have a more general meaning, like any kind of "endangering the safety at work" at the level of the whole group. Without more context, we can only make more or less educated guesses.
SafeTex Sep 1, 2021:
@ Nicki and all Strangely, I don't see it as a very specific situation but the opposite. I feel that the the two examples given are just that (general examples). I mean it would be very strange indeed if these were the only two reasons to be able to say "stop"and stage a walkout.

And if I'm right, then the very general term "en souffrance" would be fully justified and suitable to most situations
Nikki Scott-Despaigne Sep 1, 2021:
être en souffrance This is a very general expression that is widely used to describe that something or someone is "in difficulty". However, the translation problem here is that the expression seems to be ill-suited to the context which is in fact very specific: when safety rules 'n' regs are not being complied with and that a work situation is putting people in danger. I'd inform the client and seek confirmation from them that that is indeed the intedned meaning and if so, then go ahead and use a specific descriptive phrase to explain what is really meant. Saying that the team is "in difficulty" falls short of the meaning if that is what is intended, as does, of course, the source term/expression also.
Daryo Sep 1, 2021:
Typical "attention to details" you are taking one word that is only ONE OF MANY examples and compare it to that word being the ONLY answer.

this text is about reasons that would justify calling urgently and immediately a stop to someone's work - NOW / IN THE NEXT MINUTE.

It's not about long term problems of work group dynamics, that are certainly important, but on a different timescale.

In places like a building site, a group that is getting dangerously un-coordinated/disorganised would be a damn good reason to call for an immediate stop, but you would need a lot of "poetic licence" to say that that group "is in suffering". (whatever ghits have to say ...)
SafeTex Sep 1, 2021:
@ Daryo and all well, we know that it's not a "dossier en souffrance" but a team (collectif de travail). But then you go on to say that

"un collectif de travail en souffrance" could also be a group of worker getting too tired and starting to make mistakes, or SUFFERING mild collective food poisoning, or some other "collective" impediment. (my bold)

thereby using the very verb that I suggested and you disagreed with to describe the probable meaning of what the writer intends. Typical !!!
Daryo Sep 1, 2021:
The meaning for "en souffrance" found by Althea would make sense, although it's the kind of bureaucratic jargon that would be unexpected in safety regulations.

"un dossier an souffrance" simply means a completely neglected case, no one is looking at it, taking a/some/any decision long overdue

"un collectif de travail en souffrance (des règles de sécurité au travail)" meaning by analogy "a work group neglecting safety rules" would certainly be a very good reason to start ringing alarme bells, but it does sound like out of place jargon for "safety instructions".

"un collectif de travail en souffrance" could also be a group of worker getting too tired and starting to make mistakes, or suffering mild collective food poisoning, or some other "collective" impediment.
Samuël Buysschaert Aug 31, 2021:
Un complément pour la notion:
Accompagner un collectif de travail en souffrance par la psychodynamique du travail
"-Une évolution des caractéristiques du travail et l’expression par des salariés de difficultés individuelles ou collectives (perte de cohésion, désinvestissement, tension dans l’équipe, baisse de la qualité du travail…)
-Des difficultés exprimées à la suite d’un évènement difficile / violent dans le travail, qui pourraient venir révéler d’autres problématiques sur le plan de l’organisation et de la coopération et qui impactent la santé des salariés."
https://ast-i.org/accompagner-un-collectif-de-travail-en-sou...

Il peut s'agir par exemple de "problèmes structurels ou conjoncturels" dans l’entreprise qui peuvent présenter un risque au sein de celle-ci.
Althea Draper Aug 31, 2021:
I had a look to see if it was an idiom and found this in an old "Selection of French Idioms" by Plan and Roget (although I'm not sure if it helps that much!)
"Etre en souffrance - Se dit d’une chose négligée, d’une affaire arrêtée."
https://delibra.bg.polsl.pl/dlibra/docmetadata?showContent=t...

Proposed translations

1 hr

pending

'If a collective labour agreement is pending': if such an agreement were pending, then there could be no certainty as to the applicability of any resultant regulations, negotiated or existent.
Reference:

http://stella.atilf.fr/Dendien/scripts/tlfiv5/search.exe?82;s=1320232410;cat=2;m=collectif+de+travail;

http://stella.atilf.fr/Dendien/scripts/tlfiv5/visusel.exe?131;s=1320232410;r=6;nat=;sol=0;

Peer comment(s):
neutral polyglot45 : aren't we talking about people here?
35 mins
neutral SafeTex : Hello Peter: your second reference is particular for letters and messages but I don't see how it can work here for a group of people
1 hr
Something went wrong...
-2
3 hrs

is/are suffering

Either this is extremely easy or I've completely missed something but if you tell a colleague to "stop", it is 'cos his conduct is causing others to suffer.
Note from asker:
The stop refers to a "safety stop" whereby one of the workers believes that the safety regulations are not being observed and so intiates a "safety stop", ie stops the work until the issue is resolved.
Peer comment(s):
disagree Tony M : Over-simplistic and overly literal; I'm afraid you are indeed missing something important here.
27 mins
well, it can cover a heavy work load, psychological or emotional as well as physical stress, bullying etc. so I'm not sure what it is missing as you say. "Suffering at work" also gets nearly 8m Ghits
disagree Daryo : "Suffering at work" also gets nearly 8m Ghits proves NOTHING // "safety regulations" indulging in psychobabble musing being not very likely => more relavant // You have Machine "Translation" for "translating by statistics", the rudimentary version of MT.
19 hrs
You prefer a phrase that gets 0 ghits as always huh? And you confuse Ghits with Google Translate. Ghits is the number of times Google estimates a phrase is found on the Internet. It has nothing to do with MT. A novice error
Something went wrong...
-1
3 hrs

in distress / upset / in pain

it seems that it does not refer to physical pain but to distress
Peer comment(s):
disagree Tony M : Over-simplistic and overly literal; I'm afraid you are missing something important here.
16 mins
Something went wrong...
-1
9 hrs

low morale

Proposed translations:

I can also say Stop:
If a team is suffering from low morale / If I detect low employee/staff/team morale

See:

(collectif de travail definition) http://www.cedip.developpement-durable.gouv.fr/les-competenc...

https://snacknation.com/blog/low-employee-morale/

https://ocdalecarnegie.com/5-common-causes-of-low-morale-and...

https://www.rhythmsystems.com/blog/7-signs-your-remote-teams...

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 9 hrs (2021-08-31 19:24:46 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Very interesting web page:

https://www.nokanhui-rps.com/equipes-en-souffrance
Peer comment(s):
disagree Daryo : whole factories should be closed down permanently if that was a good enough reason to stop work on "safety grounds" // this is not a reason to stop work urgently in the middle of a working day.
14 hrs
Something went wrong...
+2
4 hrs

in danger

Or "in a hazardous position". I am basing my answer entirely on the context. I could not find a bilingual reference to support it.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 day 56 mins (2021-09-01 10:59:31 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

It could also mean "in violation of safety regulations"
Peer comment(s):
agree philgoddard
55 mins
neutral Daryo : it definitely must be some kind of dangerous situation to justify stopping work without any further ado, but more precision would be preferable
18 hrs
agree Nikki Scott-Despaigne : This will require rephrasing of the sentence but it seems the most logical way to express the situation in context. An even more complete explanation might be appropriate sch as suggested by Asker "safety rules not being complied with".
19 hrs
Something went wrong...
3 days 2 hrs

falling behind

Not sure about this at all, but I found this in TLFi: "P. anal. En parlant de tout retard généralement préjudiciable dans la conclusion de quelque chose."

The difficulty being to get it to fit the context. Could a team which is falling behind pose a danger precisely because they then come under time pressure? A bit tenuous, but not beyond the bounds of possibility

... but that's why I've put confidence at a lowly "Low"!
Something went wrong...

Reference comments

2 hrs
Reference:

http://www.cedip.developpement-durable.gouv.fr/les-competences-d-un-collectif-de-travail-a102.html

Définition

Un collectif de travail est un groupe d’individus (internes ou externes à la structure) travaillant ensemble en vue d’atteindre un résultat donné, dans un délai imparti, avec des moyens spécifiques (groupe projet, groupe de travail, équipe…).

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2 hrs (2021-08-31 12:18:54 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

It is the notion of someone or something that is struggling
Peer comments on this reference comment:
agree philgoddard
2 hrs
agree Bokani Hart
6 hrs
agree Daryo : yes but it simply defines a "work group" or a "team" - no reason whatsoever to automatically associate this term with "struggling", where you got that idea from???
20 hrs
Something went wrong...
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