| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4] > | Double standard for English speakers translating out of their native language Thread poster: Deborah Hoffman
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| looking for it | Mar 18, 2009 |
Is there a particular location for English>English discussions? I'm looking for it in the Forums and also in language pairs but not finding. Or is it just something that crops up as a topic from time to time?
tia, (and I love your use of the word tripe)
| | | | Anne-Marie Grant (X) 
Local time: 05:24
French to English
+ ...
| I have never dared, would never dare... | Mar 19, 2009 |
post an answer 'out' of my native language. If I feel sure of myself, I might suggest to a non-native that their answer, in English, does not sound quite right.
They then, invariably, post google refs. to back up their answer, as though that's the end of the matter...
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Arnaud HERVE wrote:
Genevieve von Lewetzov pointed out recently on the FR forum that in the medical field, some answers given on KudoZ could lead to a real health danger. Especially if the wrong answer was chosen by the asker eventually.
Some suggestions about that:
1) Give a right to receive answers only from those who are specialists.
2) Allow those who are specialists AND natives to come back after some time, and request a correction on the top of the page of the KudoZ result.
So true! It happens frequently in my language pairs! At first, I didn't know what to do. Now, I just write a note to make sure KOG users are aware of the mistake.
But this is not a definite solution... I found Proz when I was looking for a term. I took the term selected by the asker as correct.. I was unaware of Proz's modus operandi, I thought terms were only translated by specialists in that field. Any way, I have this habit of using several dictionaries and back translate terms I'm not sure of or look for terms that would fit the text in a better way - and that specific word was all right - alright ?
[Edited at 2009-03-19 00:47 GMT]
| | | | Paul Cohen
Greenland
Local time: 03:24
German to English
+ ...
| Anyone can translate into English | Mar 19, 2009 |
Anne-Marie Grant wrote:
I have never dared, would never dare post an answer 'out' of my native language. If I feel sure of myself, I might suggest to a non-native that their answer, in English, does not sound quite right.
They then, invariably, post google refs. to back up their answer, as though that's the end of the matter...
And then you find yourself giving them English lessons...
While I agree that non-native speakers can often provide fascinating insights into the fine nuances of the source text, in an ever increasing number of cases, I find that their KudoZ answers are more a source of irritation than erudition.
There appears to be a growing attitude among many site members that anyone can translate into English. When I compare some members' KudoZ answers with their profiles, I'm often genuinely shocked.
The other day, a question was asked in one of my language combinations and the first three answerers were translating out of their native tongue. It was all very international. There was a German, a Frenchman and a Portuguese. Who needs the natives, indeed!
My immediate thought was: "If things continue like this, it will be the death of KudoZ".
Actually, there was recently a German thread that asked this very question: "Is KudoZ dead?" But that had more to do with the fact that some people have noticed a general lack of activity on the English>German KudoZ forum -- as if people were looking elsewhere for help.
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| Agree to Michiko | Mar 19, 2009 |
michiko tsumura wrote:
First of all, please excuse any mistakes in my English writing and misspelling, etc.
I don't think there is anything wrong with answering a KudoZ question into your second language. Sometimes, only native speakers of the source language can understand the nuance and that's what the asker is looking for. If an answer gives the right ideas, even it's not a perfect English, the asker can often come up with the right translation. But if that's something the asker prefers, then they can simply choose an option to restrict the answerer to whatever.
Besides Przemyslaw and Henry's comments, this seems to me like a non-English speaker bashing. We native English speakers don't say anything when others are wrong, but others say we're wrong whey we're just trying to help. Hope I am wrong because I don't see that in KudoZ in my pair.
I agree with Michiko. Maybe I am one of those "uninvited" non-native speaker of English who frequently contributes answers for language pairs not in my native language. I see quite a lot of difference between my native language pairs and others. KudoZ is not a place only for asking what a specific term of phrase means, but also asking for suggestions. If you can't come up with the right words for translation and post a question, maybe all the answers are not what you are looking for, but in those answers, you might find a certain keyword(s) which inspire you the correct translation. And as Michiko said, it sounds like non-English speaker bashing. I get quite of a bashing contributing to pairs other than my native pairs, but I try to learn from those comments. I know that those comments are not pleasant to read, but I take them under advice. What I can't really stand is native speakers being biased and prejudiced that non-native speakers cannot give good translations and people (I wouldn't give names here) who only criticizes other people's translations without even backing up their comments, like posting a link to prove that you are wrong and I am right. And the funny thing is that they ask for proof when they don't do themselves to prove that THEY are right. And if those people know the answer, why don't they just post their answers instead of tailing non-native speakers' contributions? Like Michiko wrote, in my native language pair, I don't see any harsh comments nor prejudiced comments that non-native speakers cannot provide good translations in Japanese. I am amazed to see some of those non-native speakers of Japanese giving good translations with clear and precise explanations to back up their contributions.
Like I said, I'm not a native speaker of English, but I believe I can contribute to people who are in need. And I believe that all the other non-native English speakers feel the same way.
| | | | | Nothing against non-native posters rather... | Mar 19, 2009 |
Yasutomo Kanazawa wrote:
Like I said, I'm not a native speaker of English, but I believe I can contribute to people who are in need. And I believe that all the other non-native English speakers feel the same way.
What I think Deborah means is how in some combinations, people who post suggestions outside of their native language are harshly rebuffed or sometimes even chastised when their answer is not 100% accurate. I happen to agree that there is no need to be mean or impolite when correcting someone. It is far more constructive to explain to a person why their suggestion is not correct in a professional manner rather than being what I refer to as an intellectual snob.
Interllectual snobs are those who may or may not be more educated/knowledgeable than anyone else but enjoy touting they're "extensive" knowledge base and tearing down those who they feel may not on the same level. (my personal definition. feel free to add/modify)
[Edited at 2009-03-19 12:44 GMT]
| | | | Erik Freitag
Germany
Local time: 06:24
Member (2006)
Dutch to German
+ ...
Anne-Marie Grant wrote:
post an answer 'out' of my native language. If I feel sure of myself, I might suggest to a non-native that their answer, in English, does not sound quite right.
They then, invariably, post google refs. to back up their answer, as though that's the end of the matter...
I confess: I sometimes do answer questions in the direction DE-EN. I'll never translate into one of my non-native languages for money. Native speakers will no doubt notice my non-nativeness, still I usually say in my answer something along the lines of "native speaker will help you to find the right words for my suggestion".
At the risk of making an unmodest impression, I'll also say that many of my suggestions were agreed with and chosen the most helpful (I know: not that that matters): The ENS either failed to understand the source term correctly in a linguistic sense, or lacked knowledge of the subject field, or even both.
To sum it up: I can't see anything wrong with answering questions 'out' of one's native language per se.
Of course, what the OP says is a completely different thing:
Deborah Hoffman wrote:
"You are wrong, and moreover can't spell and I can't figure out how you even have the nerve to post this garbage."
These people do bother me as well, not because they post into their non-native language, but because they post garbage.
[Bearbeitet am 2009-03-19 12:24 GMT]
| | | | Taija Hyvönen
Finland
Local time: 07:24
Member (2008)
English to Finnish
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| If non-native speakers were not allowed to answer... | Mar 19, 2009 |
... all of KudoZ from Finnish to any language would pretty much fall silent - there are so few questions and answerers as it is. Sometimes there are only non-natives answering.
If a question remains open for some time without one single answer, I think at least giving a hint or pointing a direction is more helpful than nothing if the asker is clueless. The native languages show up with the answer anyway so the askers can draw their conclusions. I haven't seen any garbage posted in K... See more ... all of KudoZ from Finnish to any language would pretty much fall silent - there are so few questions and answerers as it is. Sometimes there are only non-natives answering.
If a question remains open for some time without one single answer, I think at least giving a hint or pointing a direction is more helpful than nothing if the asker is clueless. The native languages show up with the answer anyway so the askers can draw their conclusions. I haven't seen any garbage posted in KudoZ to and from Finnish or anyone being impolite.
The only thing bugging me about KudoZ is when questions hang open indefinitely and the fact that people seem to automatically award 4 points for any answer chosen, even for guesses with no references whatsoever.
[Edited at 2009-03-19 07:59 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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| Why non-natives can sometimes provide the best answer | Mar 19, 2009 |
Something which I don't recall having been mentioned here or in past similar threads is the fact that non-natives can sometimes come up with the best (most appropriate, most accurate, most commonly used) answer simply because we've seen it time and again in our source texts!
I wouldn't dream of translating into Italian but it's not uncommon that I am more aware of the most suitable translation of a given term than the natives are, fo... See more Something which I don't recall having been mentioned here or in past similar threads is the fact that non-natives can sometimes come up with the best (most appropriate, most accurate, most commonly used) answer simply because we've seen it time and again in our source texts!
I wouldn't dream of translating into Italian but it's not uncommon that I am more aware of the most suitable translation of a given term than the natives are, for this very reason.
In any case, the point here, as WilRoy and others have commented, is to be respectful of other askers and answerers at all times, whatever opinion we may have of their questions or answers.
[Edited at 2009-03-19 08:53 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | hazmatgerman (X)
Local time: 06:24
English to German
| nonnative p.o.v. | Mar 19, 2009 |
Further to Salo's comment on the helpfulness of every substantial contribution I do not consider a nonnative proposal per se lower grade than that of a n.s. Single terms in a given context do not normally require as much cultural background as either whole phrases or complete texts; it is for the latter where a knowledgeable n.s. will often have the edge on a nonnative. Of course, this is a nonnative's p.o.v. Regards.
[Edited at 2009-03-19 08:56 GMT]
| | | | liz askew
United Kingdom
Local time: 05:24
Member (2007)
French to English
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| You're dead right | Mar 19, 2009 |
Yes, you are dead right. I take the risk now and again and if I find good references I can genuinely help out other colleagues.
In order to avoid an onslaught (it doesn't happen with all nationalities) I sometimes just post a reference in case it helps the asker, rather than actually post an "answer"..
I don't worry about it too much as I try to be careful not to post too many ridiculous answers:-)
When people do disagree I tend to hope they do it because they c... See more Yes, you are dead right. I take the risk now and again and if I find good references I can genuinely help out other colleagues.
In order to avoid an onslaught (it doesn't happen with all nationalities) I sometimes just post a reference in case it helps the asker, rather than actually post an "answer"..
I don't worry about it too much as I try to be careful not to post too many ridiculous answers:-)
When people do disagree I tend to hope they do it because they care about accuracy and getting it right! However, there are a few individuals who think they can be right all the time and can get a bit huffy if you disagree with them. C'est la vie!
Oh yes, and then you get the non-native English speakers voting for an answer by a non-native English speaker, so there you go!
Regards
Liz Askew
[Edited at 2009-03-19 09:07 GMT]
[Edited at 2009-03-19 09:10 GMT]
[Edited at 2009-03-19 09:11 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | AWa (X)
Local time: 06:24
English to German
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| The innate politeness of English natives | Mar 19, 2009 |
I think the discussion is turning away from Deborah's point. She did not indicate in any way that non-natives should not be allowed to answer questions about English vocabulary or that due to better nowledge of a word ina certain context can give the best answer. She referred to the reaction to wrong answers in different language forums.
Deborah noted that
1. in English forums obviously wrong answers by non-natives are met with polite reactions discreetly inidcating that the... See more I think the discussion is turning away from Deborah's point. She did not indicate in any way that non-natives should not be allowed to answer questions about English vocabulary or that due to better nowledge of a word ina certain context can give the best answer. She referred to the reaction to wrong answers in different language forums.
Deborah noted that
1. in English forums obviously wrong answers by non-natives are met with polite reactions discreetly inidcating that the given solution might not be 100% suitable in the given context. To which some (many?) non-natives react by insisting they are right and know better than native speakers.
2. in forums for other languages English natives who dare give an answer for the other language are clearly, if not rudely, told that they are wrong - and vanish into the background accepting the better knowledge of the natives in that language.
I think there are several factors contibuting to this:
The fact that anybody who learned English at school for a couple of years think they are experts on the language has been discussed above.
The second one was only mentioned in passing: there are many different types of English (UK US Australia were examples given). Just have a look at the list of varietes of English in the spellchecker of MS Word, there are 13 entires. Additionally each of these varietes is a living language, meaning it changes constantly - so there is plenty of room for discussions ;_)
And, to get to the subject line of this posting, the third factor is that UK and US citizens are very polite. Especially when it comes to criticising others. They tend to first see the positive aspects, to find something to praise, and then address the negative - being very careful not to offend. Maybe the natives in the forums where non-natives are directly told they are wrong live in a society where everything, including criticism, is given more directly as a rule. ▲ Collapse
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| Don't be disheartened | Mar 19, 2009 |
Please don’t be disheartened if some people overreact just because you made a minor mistake. Input by native English speakers translating into their second language is extremely valuable precisely for the above mentioned reasons, i. e. you as a native speaker are best equipped to understand what the English source text is actually saying. Subtle nuances in the source text are sometimes difficult to decode for the non native speaker. Thus the German native speaker may produce a wonderfully f... See more Please don’t be disheartened if some people overreact just because you made a minor mistake. Input by native English speakers translating into their second language is extremely valuable precisely for the above mentioned reasons, i. e. you as a native speaker are best equipped to understand what the English source text is actually saying. Subtle nuances in the source text are sometimes difficult to decode for the non native speaker. Thus the German native speaker may produce a wonderfully fluent German text but that does not help much if it is not the translation of the source text because he or she did not get the meaning right. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Giles Watson
Italy
Local time: 06:24
Italian to English
In memoriam | Read past the (apparent) sarcasm | Mar 19, 2009 |
Marie-Hélène Hayles wrote:
In any case, the point here, as WilRoy and others have commented, is to be respectful of other askers and answerers at all times, whatever opinion we may have of their questions or answers.
It also helps to remember that sometimes non-native writers of English can come across as distinctly chippy, or even rude, when all they are trying to do is be emphatic.
FWIW
Giles
| | | | | If you can't take the heat... | Mar 19, 2009 |
I admit that--probably much to the chagrin of my German colleagues--that I stray outside my comfort zone from time to time (though the frequency of such outings has dwindled).
If my suggestion is wrong, then I would hope that those who know would disagree and perhaps even take the time to explain why they disagree. Then I might learn something and know more when I have to translate the same concept, but the other way around.
If I could not deal with the criticism, which... See more I admit that--probably much to the chagrin of my German colleagues--that I stray outside my comfort zone from time to time (though the frequency of such outings has dwindled).
If my suggestion is wrong, then I would hope that those who know would disagree and perhaps even take the time to explain why they disagree. Then I might learn something and know more when I have to translate the same concept, but the other way around.
If I could not deal with the criticism, which I will undoubtedly receive from time to time (it is, after all, not my mother tongue), then I would not participate; but I can, so I do.
As far as commenting on others' answers go, I do not care where the person comes from: If I think it the suggestion is wrong or doesn't fit, then I will disagree. That is what the "disagree" button is there for.
[Edited at 2009-03-19 11:16 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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