| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9] > | Consider the consequences of AI before you start a career in translation Thread poster: Gerard de Noord
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Baran Keki 
Türkiye
Local time: 01:19
Member
English to Turkish
| Lingua 5B
Bosnia and Herzegovina
Local time: 00:19
Member (2009)
English to Croatian
+ ...
Dan Lucas wrote: Tom in London wrote:
Some careers may still be possible in areas that require hands-on physical abilities Plumbing FTW 👍 The problem is that ability in the trades and other lines of work, such as mechanics, is just as much a matter of natural aptitude as it is in, say, translation or mathematics. I passed a building site earlier this morning where they have been doing some bricklaying. That's an example of a deceptively difficult skill. I guess it's possible for anybody to learn the basics, but customers will gravitate towards those suppliers who are very good at what they do, rather than those who are simply adequate. For my part I found woodwork quite absorbing when I studied it at school but I was hopeless at it. Very few people seemed to be fluent in fields that require both cognitive skills and physical (for want of a better word) skills. It does seem to me that freelance translators tend to think that theirs is the only profession under threat from technology, but it really isn't. As Tom says, it affects everything, and has been doing so for decades. Dan
Yes, but for instance, doctors do not receive lower salary just because their entire diagnostics tools are almost all digital now and so is their administration. It won't be taken against them to negotiate a lower salary based on the fact they churn patients on some machine like chickens, instead of examining them manually. Never mind that these machines have errors and often times are not always accurate.
I agree more or less with the Tom's list, minus the fitness trainer. Most fitness trainers are self-employed. So having a digital product with their exercise video or program that they sell as video files is much better for them business wise than appearing at separate classes to teach. Less time, more money, wider reach. And yes, that's definitely a digital product, as you have to do it on your own with a recording rather than with a live teacher.
[Edited at 2023-04-22 10:52 GMT]
| | | | | Industry-wide is not my concern | Apr 22, 2023 |
Dan Lucas wrote: Gerard de Noord wrote:
Was I right or was I wrong? Try to formulate a scientific answer. ...we have no industry-level data stronger than anecdote on which to base an opinion.
In a sense, what's important is our own segment(s). Some segments might be expanding, and could counterbalance the stats for any shrinkage in, say, French-to-English IT work, but I'm only really interested in the figures for the latter.
Just this last week, another anecdote; another previously full-time F-E translator very active in other forums/socials said she's been part-time for a while now and has a FT job elsewhere.
And the same day, I read of a high-regarded agency (ditto on the socials, and I think award-winning, from its local chamber of commerce) now branching out into training. OK, not a massive leap, and plenty of translators also teach, but still.
Confirmation bias notwithstanding (there will be some, I'm sure), I think the signs are there.
| | | | | We will all mostly become post-editors... | Apr 22, 2023 |
at some point. Maybe not yours truly, because old, but the younger generation. They'll still be able to have a decent income if they are good enough and fast. I don't see much difference there. The difference is that it will be a completely different job. So, if you like being a "translator", you won't like the future. Personally, I wouldn't have a problem.. It is what it is and you can't stop progress.
[Edited at 2023-04-22 11:50 GMT]
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| Big vs small languages | Apr 22, 2023 |
Charlie Bavington wrote:
Just this last week, another anecdote; another previously full-time F-E translator very active in other forums/socials said she's been part-time for a while now and has a FT job elsewhere.
There may be an oversupply of translators in some big language combinations. I had a quick look in Proz Find to see how many target-native profiles there are in each combination:
DA: Danish, SV: Swedish, NO: Norwegian
I wouldn't like to depend on e.g. FR-EN.
The sizes of the respective native populations are, to a certain extent, reflected in the number of profiles. However, much of what we translate only needs to be translated once per language: manuals, marketing, T&Cs, policies, EU legislation, UI strings, etc., so there is no need for ten times as many translators for manuals just because a country has ten times as many inhabitants.
It is my impression that those of our colleagues who tend to express worries about the future are the ones working with the 'overpopulated' combinations.
This has nothing to do with MT and AI. Such technologies are easy and obvious scapegoats, but I'm not convinced they are the main cause of the difficulties experienced by some.
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Gerard de Noord wrote:
Was I right or was I wrong? Try to formulate a scientific answer.
Have you formulated a scientific question?
I see from my response last year that I have come round 180 degrees. Things are changing faster and faster.
| | | | IrinaN
United States
Local time: 17:19
English to Russian
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| Reality check | Apr 22, 2023 |
I think that most of my respected colleagues missed Gerard's point. If I'm wrong, Gerard, please correct me.
I wonder if anyone had ever thought of why and how all those bad agencies selling unedited or barely proofread MTs survive and thrive? We keep b..ching about it for at least a decade but they sell their businesses for 770 mil in the meantime😊
1. The clients are getting younger too, it’s a different generation and MT/AI are now wired into their brains. Generations t... See more I think that most of my respected colleagues missed Gerard's point. If I'm wrong, Gerard, please correct me.
I wonder if anyone had ever thought of why and how all those bad agencies selling unedited or barely proofread MTs survive and thrive? We keep b..ching about it for at least a decade but they sell their businesses for 770 mil in the meantime😊
1. The clients are getting younger too, it’s a different generation and MT/AI are now wired into their brains. Generations that used to read something written on paper, slowly and thoughtfully, and loved doing so are fading away faster than we all would like to see. Soon they will have been raised on “all” War and Peace in 15 minutes, Hundred Years of Solitude in 10, and The Old Man and the Sea in what, 30 seconds? What do you think they really care about? Why waste any more time that can be used to save/make another buck in times when contracts and whole markets can be jerked away from under you in a split second? Understand your clients and their end goals.
2. Clients’ requirements and expectations are at all-times low. They don’t really care for most of what we include in the meaning of “translation”, including our never-ending pathos and dreams of trade exclusivity. They pay for information. Today information is the most valuable thing in this world. It equals power, and power is a prime money-maker, coupled with speed. For as long as there are no factual mistakes such as Yes instead of No, On instead of Off, Do instead of Don’t, it’s all edible for them.
3. Newcomers' dreams of getting into a high-end elite niche, or at least decent income brackets are just about as realistic as every girl’s in a ballet class dream to become a Bolshoy prima. The elite market that provides good living is shrinking and will keep shrinking at a catastrophic pace, unless our market will come up with some entirely different concept of evaluating and pricing our value. Yes, it will remain but… that’s where Gerard hit the bull’s eye. Mammas, don’t let you babies grow up to be cowboys… Will there be a chance for new generations to translate/edit one way or the other? Of course. The question is, will they be able to make a living at all or at least before getting up there??
4. Most colleagues who keep praising and protecting old school are in a pre-retirement or retirement age, dinosaurs from the last century, like me. Think for a moment about breaking into the translation market today with a chance to have ice-cream money left after the bills, if covered, relying solely on translation.
5. Just like about every oldtimer here, I started translating when rates of .12 - .15 without any negotiations, funny matches and discounts were a common household thing for anyone claiming to be a translator, including those who were not worth half of it. Maybe I wasn’t either in the beginning. Mind the cost of living then and now… In my first year of freelancing I was making over 60K, in a couple of years I got close to $100K when I added interpretation. Yes, working 40- 60 hrs a week, self-studying for at least another 20-30 and hiding under the couch from more clients… Today this kind of a start is utterly impossible for newbies.
6. I have never worked for small clients. All oil and space giants, a few top global law and auditing firms, military in the past (not anymore, ever). For every project I served as both a translator and an interpreter. If only you knew how many times I approached those serious and highly technical clients, responsible for so many lives, recommended some fairly substantial improvements in translation and heard: “Irina, are there any factual mistakes?” – “Hmm, not really but…” – “No worries then, we understand what it means.”
7. Please, please don’t give me the arguments such as your clients’ love and appreciation, them staying with you and paying you top rates. Mine do too 😊. I know that you’ll be telling the truth. Just think of a tiny place your examples occupy on today’s global scale.
Shoot me now...
[Edited at 2023-04-22 14:51 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Dan Lucas
United Kingdom
Local time: 23:19
Member (2014)
Japanese to English
| I agree: what matters is the niche, not the industry... | Apr 22, 2023 |
Charlie Bavington wrote:
Confirmation bias notwithstanding (there will be some, I'm sure), I think the signs are there.
...but to be blunt it is only my particular niche that I care about and mine is doing fine, at least for now. Judging by my schedule I'm about to have my busiest-ever month, but as you imply there is no monolithic market for translation and clearly my situation is not representative of all sub-markets.
I tend to think that a job labelled "translation" will still be here in ten years but that, as Giovanni says, the content of the work will be rather different for most of us. Like him, I wouldn't really care if that turned out to be the case.
More generally, I speculate that we're seeing a number of overlapping trends. The low-end markets are being/have already been ceded to Google Translate et alia. Previously comfortable generalists in the middle of their respective markets are finding increasingly difficult to differentiate their service from what used to be low-end offerings. Those who fail to move upmarket will probably have to diversify or leave the industry, which might explain Charlie's observations, and this goes for agencies also.
What is left? Pairs or industries where MT generally doesn't work as well, or where clients don't trust it for one reason or another (confidentiality, risk of massive loss). Or translators working at what for the sake of argument I shall call the high end, who have convinced clients that they are outstanding in some way: specialist knowledge, turnaround speed, superb knowledge of target language, track record in "difficult" texts, that sort of thing.
Taking the market in the round, it's not as lucrative as it was, but then it never was...
Dan
[Edited at 2023-04-22 14:47 GMT]
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Lieven Malaise
Belgium
Local time: 00:19
Member (2020)
French to Dutch
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| Definitely not right. | Apr 22, 2023 |
Perhaps not completely wrong, too.  But in one of your earlier posts in this thread you mentioned something like 'a matter of months'. That is definitely not the case.
For the year 2023 I notice an increase in MTPE job offers from a few clients (who already offered MTPE, but now they seem to do it more), but I don't notice an increase in the machine translation quality and I think that's normal since you can't have sp... See more Perhaps not completely wrong, too. But in one of your earlier posts in this thread you mentioned something like 'a matter of months'. That is definitely not the case.
For the year 2023 I notice an increase in MTPE job offers from a few clients (who already offered MTPE, but now they seem to do it more), but I don't notice an increase in the machine translation quality and I think that's normal since you can't have spectacular progress without the machines becoming more 'human'. Our brain is more than maths, but AI basically isn't.
Besides that I still have plenty of clients who only ask me to do conventional translation. A few days ago I even received a 12000 word legal job from a plain PDF. No CAT tool, no MT, no nothing.
There's a whole translation world outside of Proz. People seem to be stuck here and focussed on the complete rubbish that is offered by the least attractive potential clients. Go check it out. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Gerard de Noord
France
Local time: 00:19
Member (2003)
English to Dutch
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | Thank you for answering my question | Apr 22, 2023 |
Lieven Malaise wrote: Perhaps not completely wrong, too. But in one of your earlier posts in this thread you mentioned something like 'a matter of months'. That is definitely not the case. For the year 2023 I notice an increase in MTPE job offers from a few clients (who already offered MTPE, but now they seem to do it more), but I don't notice an increase in the machine translation quality and I think that's normal since you can't have spectacular progress without the machines becoming more 'human'. Our brain is more than maths, but AI basically isn't. Besides that I still have plenty of clients who only ask me to do conventional translation. A few days ago I even received a 12000 word legal job from a plain PDF. No CAT tool, no MT, no nothing. There's a whole translation world outside of Proz. People seem to be stuck here and focussed on the complete rubbish that is offered by the least attractive potential clients. Go check it out.
A few months after my initial post we were already able to ask an AI Large Language Model to rewrite a target text (AI translation). In Dutch we can ask the LLM to reformulate “as if you are an eloquent 30-year-old nerd using inclusive, informal and easy to understand Dutch”.
The Achilles heel of artificial intelligence, including ChatGPT and DeepL, is that machines don't know what they don't know. The results look great at first glance but are sometimes incomplete or completely made up. ChatGPT hallucinating still makes the newspapers, translation engines are not that sexy.
My next bet is that hallucinating – making up facts, lying – can be eliminated from the algorithms.
I’ll be 63 in two weeks and I’m not afraid of losing my livelihood in the remaining years, but I wouldn’t recommend becoming a commercial translator to people who have other choices.
Cheers,
Gerard
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32,841... just a couple of colleagues to compete with... granted, not as bad as Spanish...
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Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL wrote: 32,841... just a couple of colleagues to compete with... granted, not as bad as Spanish...
If you consider that there are many more variants of Spanish than Italian, maybe it is
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expressisverbis
Portugal
Local time: 23:19
Member (2015)
English to Portuguese
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| A matter of population, I think | Apr 23, 2023 |
4. Spanish – 512 million speakers
Spanish is spoken as the official language in Spain, in 19 countries in the Americas, and in one in Africa.
Speaking in Spanish has become an opportunity for professionals from all kinds of careers. That is why it is one of the most stud... See more 4. Spanish – 512 million speakers
Spanish is spoken as the official language in Spain, in 19 countries in the Americas, and in one in Africa.
Speaking in Spanish has become an opportunity for professionals from all kinds of careers. That is why it is one of the most studied languages in the world.
https://lingua.edu/the-20-most-spoken-languages-in-the-world-in-2022/
The last statement is true. I remember at the University there were more students chosing Spanish as a supplementary language instead of Italian.
Btw... Since the subject is AI, I recommend watching 'The Machine'... maybe many of you already know it.
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt2317225/ ▲ Collapse
| | | | | should stop offering translation degrees | Apr 24, 2023 |
Rather, universities should stop offering translation degrees and make it a specialisation minor.
Although AI is not currently generative, with today's computing power, very high degrees of perfection have already been reached, but without the capacity to replace humans, however, as quantum computing advances, we will see the end of the profession. Offering translation careers to young people today is a scam, it is robbing them of the years they need to prepare themselves for the future, ... See more Rather, universities should stop offering translation degrees and make it a specialisation minor.
Although AI is not currently generative, with today's computing power, very high degrees of perfection have already been reached, but without the capacity to replace humans, however, as quantum computing advances, we will see the end of the profession. Offering translation careers to young people today is a scam, it is robbing them of the years they need to prepare themselves for the future, which is obviously not in translation.
Cordially ▲ Collapse
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Eugenio Garcia-Salmones wrote:
Rather, universities should stop offering translation degrees and make it a specialisation minor.
Although AI is not currently generative, with today's computing power, very high degrees of perfection have already been reached, but without the capacity to replace humans, however, as quantum computing advances, we will see the end of the profession. Offering translation careers to young people today is a scam, it is robbing them of the years they need to prepare themselves for the future, which is obviously not in translation.
If the young people can't work that out for themselves, that's their lookout...
But a degree in any subject prepares you for all kinds of jobs.
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