| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53] > | Ten common myths about translation quality
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| | | Whatever it says -- although I am surprised, | Aug 8, 2013 |
is not to preclude people from anything, but to find out what they are capable of. I think it should have been phrased differently, but the main point is that the aim of finding out this information is not to preclude people from anything, but rather give them some sort of an advantage. How many American born, or even British born, translators do we have ? This is an interesting question. Some people make it appear as if we had thousands of translators born in those countries. I don't know why ... See more is not to preclude people from anything, but to find out what they are capable of. I think it should have been phrased differently, but the main point is that the aim of finding out this information is not to preclude people from anything, but rather give them some sort of an advantage. How many American born, or even British born, translators do we have ? This is an interesting question. Some people make it appear as if we had thousands of translators born in those countries. I don't know why exactly that was, but language learning was not something too many people in the English-speaking countries would do, even like 20 years ago. It might be changing, so I don't know why we are pretending that there are so many English-speaking-country-born translators. Of course there are some, some even very talented people, but not that many. People in other parts of the world, like Eastern Europe, the Soviet Union and many other more remote counties, are known to be speaking more languages, probably due to the multilingual character of those regions.
[Edited at 2013-08-08 09:12 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | S E (X)
Italy
Local time: 18:34
Italian to English
| Lilian, what post are you referring to? | Aug 8, 2013 |
LilianBNekipelo wrote:
Sure, definitely at a native level, anyone who completed college or even high schoolin English
is considered to write at a native level. This is the criteria. Many people on this site don't declare English as a native language write definitely at a native level. I never said the target language should not be top level -- just the nativeness is totally insane, with the conservative meaning some people cling to. Many US born students need developmental courses to write at a collage level in English. Native level is still imprecise, but is is not native meaning a US born person of English descent. Don't you feel silly,to appear so biased? (This was mostly a response to Sara's
post)
I ask because I have never so much as hinted that "native mean[s] a US born person of English descent", nor could anything I have ever written in these forums, or elsewhere for that matter, be construed to mean this or anything remotely ressembling this. These comments betray a stunning level of miscomprehension, compounded by the complete lack of any indication as to what you could possibly be referring to.
| | | | | Well, I am sorry then | Aug 8, 2013 |
this is what some people here seem to think, and it would sound really strange from an American. I am sorry. This was my impression.
| | | | S E (X)
Italy
Local time: 18:34
Italian to English
| Definitely not what anyone is suggesting... | Aug 8, 2013 |
LilianBNekipelo wrote:
this is what some people here seem to think, and it would sound really strange from an American. I am sorry. This was my impression.
It is safe to say that no one who has contributed to this thread believes or has suggested, implied or stated that "native English speaker" means "a US born person of English descent".
But if that is and has been your impression, it might explain a great deal of the conflict!
Sarah
edited to say "contributed to this thread" rather than "contributed to this forum".
[Edited at 2013-08-08 10:32 GMT]
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| Well, if you look at the essence of some the posts -- then yes | Aug 8, 2013 |
US or UK, perhaps Australia and Canada as well. I would not be so sure about New Zealand.
Actually, I am not sure what kind of an idea they are after, when discussing the "native language' concept in this thread. Some are looking for some "nativeness",not to mention "nativity", others would like to measure the percentage of nativeness in nativeness, or in someone's language at least, others are after perfect proficiency, some others are yet after something less tangible -- since... See more US or UK, perhaps Australia and Canada as well. I would not be so sure about New Zealand.
Actually, I am not sure what kind of an idea they are after, when discussing the "native language' concept in this thread. Some are looking for some "nativeness",not to mention "nativity", others would like to measure the percentage of nativeness in nativeness, or in someone's language at least, others are after perfect proficiency, some others are yet after something less tangible -- since "nativeness" does not mean to them linguistic perfection, nor does it give any translation quality guarantees. It is basically like fighting the windmills.
[Edited at 2013-08-08 10:52 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | XXXphxxx (X) 
United Kingdom
Local time: 17:34
Portuguese to English
+ ...
| Let's try to keep things simple | Aug 8, 2013 |
I believe, Lilian, that all “they” are after is a simple acknowledgement that if a potential client clicks on that “native speaker” filter they are doing so because they want a document rendered in the language as spoken by a native speaker of that language, not by a foreigner who will quite likely make non-native errors. Arguing about levels of proficiency, places of birth, specialisations or what’s best for the client is just ... See more I believe, Lilian, that all “they” are after is a simple acknowledgement that if a potential client clicks on that “native speaker” filter they are doing so because they want a document rendered in the language as spoken by a native speaker of that language, not by a foreigner who will quite likely make non-native errors. Arguing about levels of proficiency, places of birth, specialisations or what’s best for the client is just attempting to avoid a simple truth, either you pass muster as a native speaker or you don't, and if you don't, just accept it and don't try and claim otherwise. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | What type of document? What type of native speaker? From what country? | Aug 8, 2013 |
Why would they want a "native speaker only"? What the exact reason might be, other than we only want 6'3' shop assistants because we have tall shelves. I think the clients should be required to explain why they may need only "native" speaker, and what their expectations are -- either perfect competence, or natural feel of the peace, not necessarily with perfect grammar. They might be staging a play, or something -- then the natural feeling of the piece might be important. Birth Certificate -- I... See more Why would they want a "native speaker only"? What the exact reason might be, other than we only want 6'3' shop assistants because we have tall shelves. I think the clients should be required to explain why they may need only "native" speaker, and what their expectations are -- either perfect competence, or natural feel of the peace, not necessarily with perfect grammar. They might be staging a play, or something -- then the natural feeling of the piece might be important. Birth Certificate -- I don't think so.
I think you did not get the point, Lisa, or perhaps I did not get yours. This discussion has nothing to do with me personally. I have never had any problems in my life getting any translation jobs at all, nobody has ever questioned anything. The only problem, sometimes, is caused by the fact that some of the rates are really too low, so I would not bother really trying to get the jobs which pay like $0.05 or 0.06/word. I may occasionally do something short for $0.08/word, if I am really bored, and I like the text, but I usually charge $0.12/word or more, which these days is sometimes hard to get from new clients., so you stick to your old clients, and a few companies, that are quite reasonable. I also do other thing related to language.
I participate in this discussion solely because I am truly fascinated with this subject, and also I find the "native language"notion totally outdated, on the verge or racist. The word translated into many other languages has a totally different meaning, and cannot used it this way -- perhaps many English-speaking people don't realize that. It is a remainder from the colonial times, I think.
[Edited at 2013-08-08 12:55 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Ty Kendall
United Kingdom
Local time: 17:34
Hebrew to English
| They don't owe anyone an explanation Lilian | Aug 8, 2013 |
LilianBNekipelo wrote:
Why would they want a "native speaker only"? What the exact reason might be, other than we only want 6'3' shop assistants because we have tall shelves. I think the clients should be required to explain why they may need only "native" speaker, and what their expectations are -- either perfect competence, or natural feel of the peace, not necessarily with perfect grammar. They might be staging a play, or something -- then the natural feeling of the piece might be important. Birth Certificate -- I don't think so.
!!!
It doesn't matter why Lilian. If they want one, that's what they should get. They certainly don't owe anyone an explanation.
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XXXphxxx (X)
United Kingdom
Local time: 17:34
Portuguese to English
+ ...
| Does it matter? | Aug 8, 2013 |
LilianBNekipelo wrote:
Why would they want a "native speaker only"? What the exact reason might be, other than we only want 6'3' shop assistants because we have tall shelves. I think the clients should be required to explain why they may need only "native" speaker, and what their expectations are -- either perfect competence, or natural feel of the peace, not necessarily with perfect grammar. They might be staging a play, or something -- then the natural feeling of the piece might be important. Birth Certificate -- I don't think so.
Isn't the client (who is paying the bill after all) entitled to decide what they would like? Would you like to commission, pay for a service and then find that you've been misled (euphemism for "lied to")?
[Edited at 2013-08-08 12:49 GMT]
| | | | | they want a professional native speaker... | Aug 8, 2013 |
you know, one of those... competent ones... they do exist...  Not a non native, because - you know what? - they tend to do a terrible job...
| | | | XXXphxxx (X)
United Kingdom
Local time: 17:34
Portuguese to English
+ ...
| Professional ethics | Aug 8, 2013 |
Say you went to a doctor, he diagnosed your condition and you later found out that the person you’d seen wasn’t actually a doctor (although he did call himself Dr “X”), but rather someone who felt he knew as much about medicine as any doctor because his parents had both been doctors, all his flat-mates were doctors, he'd read a lot of medical journals and so on. Would that be okay?
| | | | | Some may want a blonde translator | Aug 8, 2013 |
in a pastel dress to complement the colors of their conference room, 5'6" -- because their microphones are adjusted that way, not too heavy, because it would mean that their company promotes obesity, the right age. Would they also be allowed to request that? I don't really care. I just find many of the views really biased. I don't encounter such views in my ordinary life, I never have, perhaps once.
The doctor example is totally different. You have to be a doctor to practice med... See more in a pastel dress to complement the colors of their conference room, 5'6" -- because their microphones are adjusted that way, not too heavy, because it would mean that their company promotes obesity, the right age. Would they also be allowed to request that? I don't really care. I just find many of the views really biased. I don't encounter such views in my ordinary life, I never have, perhaps once.
The doctor example is totally different. You have to be a doctor to practice medicine. You don't have to translate into your so called "native language". There is no law like that anywhere.
A professional native speaker is nothing but an idea. If you add translating with a 99% accuracy from X -- it turn into a Utopia.
[Edited at 2013-08-08 13:38 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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| They are not biased, it's the reality... | Aug 8, 2013 |
I've said many times in my posts that I don't care if one translates into Mongolian, if they can do a good job. The reality is that most non natives do a terrible job... or maybe you can tell me that this is not true? Let's not argue about nativeness, please. You can call it whatever you like... most clients select the "natives" button because - like it or not - this is a fact. There are far more natives translators that do a good job than non-natives. You might not like it, but this is your pr... See more I've said many times in my posts that I don't care if one translates into Mongolian, if they can do a good job. The reality is that most non natives do a terrible job... or maybe you can tell me that this is not true? Let's not argue about nativeness, please. You can call it whatever you like... most clients select the "natives" button because - like it or not - this is a fact. There are far more natives translators that do a good job than non-natives. You might not like it, but this is your problem. People can claim two natives languages on Proz, so all this discrimination talk is also just hot air.
[Edited at 2013-08-08 13:11 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Ty Kendall
United Kingdom
Local time: 17:34
Hebrew to English
| Imagine this scenario...... | Aug 8, 2013 |
LilianBNekipelo wrote:
I participate in this discussion solely because I am truly fascinated with this subject, and also I find the "native language"notion totally outdated, on the verge or racist. The word translated into many other languages has a totally different meaning, and cannot used it this way -- perhaps many English-speaking people don't realize that. It is a remainder from the colonial times, I think.
[Edited at 2013-08-08 12:55 GMT]
I'm an actor, there's an upcoming film being made about the life of Idi Amin, the casting call is for a black man in his 30s. Now, I turn up expecting to be considered. Obviously I'm not and sent on my way. Would I scream racism? No.
The term "native language" is not racist, and it has nothing, absolutely nothing, to do with colonialism. So, please. Stop.
| | | | Ty Kendall
United Kingdom
Local time: 17:34
Hebrew to English
Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL wrote:
I've said many times in my posts that I don't care if one translates into Mongolian, if they can do a good job. The reality is that most non natives do a terrible job... or maybe you can tell me that this is not true? Let's not argue about nativeness, please. You can call it whatever you like... most clients select the "natives" button because - like it or not - this is a fact. There are far more natives translators that do a good job than non-natives. You might not like it, but this is your problem. People can claim two natives languages on Proz, so all this discrimination talk is also just hot air.
[Edited at 2013-08-08 13:11 GMT]
100%
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