| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53] > | Ten common myths about translation quality
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| | | I don't think, you can, theoretically. | Aug 2, 2013 |
Nicole Schnell wrote: LilianBNekipelo wrote:
You could tell them: I was born in X, and I went to the best classical language high school in the region, etc. They just cannot ask you where you were born, what your mother tongue is, which language your parents spoke, etc., not to mention any nativeness testing. It has to be the same kind of test that they would administer to everyone, regardless of their place of birth, and they would only be allowed to count mistakes, not any native type of mistakes v. non-native, whatever that is supposed to mean.
My little company is small, but is an established corporation with several shareholders (yes, we are an "Inc.", with takes some effort and is only approved by the feds after two years of solid business operations. Aside from us shareholders, we also have interns and a full-time employee. We can ask them whatever we wish, as long as the information is relevant to the job description and as long as we are asking for nothing but the prerequisites. I am free to ask any prospective employee if he/she is a native speaker of English, because this person will be in charge of invoicing and correspondence. I also require brilliant and sophisticated American English over the phone and a good and friendly voice. I also require impeccable manners and communication skills. I require flawless American English to represent our office in written and verbal communications. Liars who turned out to be dishonest during the interview will be fired on the spot (happened only once). Oh boy, now I better turn myself in to the police for all my illegal requests... 
Although nobody checks it, unless someone reported it.
[Edited at 2013-08-02 11:33 GMT]
| | | | Nicole Schnell 
United States
Local time: 04:12
English to German
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In memoriam | (Sorry, off topic) @Ty: You shall not mess with US laws | Aug 2, 2013 |
Never. Ever.
| | | | | The outsourcers dont't have to give you any benefits -- and they don't have | Aug 2, 2013 |
to pay a part of the Social Security Taxes, but they have to go by the same rules otherwise, in the US. They cannot advertise -- "we need only 5' 6' blonde waitresses" , or "we need people up to 200 pounds because our end client has a very small office."
Of course they may hire whoever they want when they see the person, but they cannot advertise anything like that, or ask any such questions.
[Edited at 2013-08-02 11:56 GMT]
| | | | Nicole Schnell
United States
Local time: 04:12
English to German
+ ...
In memoriam
LilianBNekipelo wrote:
Although nobody checks it, unless someone reported it.
You really need to read up a little bit about the laws in our country. Do not trust hearsay and do not trust particular news channels that can only be escaped by selling your firstborn to your cable company. Certain laws apply to companies of a certain size only. All this information is easily available at your local chapter / city / state.gov website. Please get informed, it makes life so much easier.
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| Nicole, I think you seem to neglect | Aug 2, 2013 |
the fact that I have spent at least 3/4 of my professional life in law firms, courthouses and police precincts. Of course I am not intending to give any kind of legal advice -- a disclaimer. I was not even supposed to say anything else about any legal matters, but I did.
[Edited at 2013-08-02 12:00 GMT]
| | | | | A very insighful perspective, Luís | Aug 2, 2013 |
Luis Arri Cibils wrote:
You seem to be saying, and please correct me if I am wrong, or I would be violating the site Rules, that translators’ “non-nativeness” is just part, and maybe just a minor part, of the problem. Natives and non-natives are both unable to render a proper translation in a “sublanguage” or “lengua de especialidad” (Alcaraz-Varó) or “specialization language,” medical, legal, finance, engineering, whatever the language they are translating to or from, if they do not have the proper background.
You may also be saying, and again correct me if I am wrong, that by excluding “non-natives”, when the client requests to do so, we might be compounding the problem (regardless the right the client might have to do so), because we are eliminating from consideration those who might have a combined expertise, language and sublanguage, far superior to the Peoria native’s expertise.
The problem lies in translation outsourcer PMs attempting to oversimplify the process. Perhaps the ones working for 'good' agencies envy their peers in bottom-feeding translation sweat shops who can use the two-step process: 1. match language pair; 2. find lowest rate.
Selecting the right translator for each job is - or should be - a small-scale, simplified process similar to what is done in the recruitment & selection area of any decent human resources department of a company.
I was a human resources manager in two renowned international companies. In short, been there, got trained, done that. I think that every translation PM worth his/her salt should, at least once in their life, build a complete recruitment & selection decision matrix on paper, and use it all the way through. As soon as they get the knack of doing it, in most cases they can do the process mentally.
In short, it involves pigeonholing well-thought requirements into two categories: a) must-haves; and b) desirables. The next step is assigning weight to each item. I'll skip the scoring and ensuing math, which lead to the final answer.
Anyway, this is not a rigid mathematical process, however quite efficient to shortlist applicants. As I said, once the PM has got the knack, they can do it mentally, without delving in too much detail.
As you stated it, I'd phrase the problem as twofold:
a) making "native speaker" a must-have when the job only justifies it as a desirable; and
b) making "subject matter expert" a desirable, in cases where it should be the #1 must-have.
Proz has given some tools to help doing it right, however no PM should expect them to automate the process entirely, especially if the input is flawed. GIGO.
Luis Arri Cibils wrote:
On the other hand, my personal experience has been that the average “non-native” translator’s quality ranges from bad to a non-fixable disaster. Granted, I might have been unlucky, and my experience, my statistical sample, might not represent the translator´s population.
I would say that once "bilingual people who do translations" are allowed to call themselves "translators", thanks to the intrinsic deregulation of the profession, the quality distribution is no longer "normal", as it spreads far beyond +/- 3 std. deviations from the mean. I get the impression that it might be multimodal as well, but I can't be sure.
Native translators may be a #1 priority for SOME jobs, definitely, however not all of them; perhaps not even so many of them. Therefore the translation agency tenet, "we only allow our providers to translate into their native language" does not justify the "eleventh commandment" status it often receives.
The idea of a native proofreader seems quite acceptable, in spite of the concept of "native speaker" being somewhat nebulous at times. Yet how many agencies actually go that extra mile?
I've seen dozens of translation agency web sites embodying an oxymoronic dichotomy, if such a thing can exist. On the page addressed to prospects, they boast that "all our translations are proofread by a genuine native speaker living in their country of origin". On their recruitment page they say that "all translators are required to deliver final, finely proofread work; we impose severe cash penalties on flaws found in the work delivered".
Luis Arri Cibils wrote:
So, José, what is the solution to this (ProZ situation)? And, as you said, “local” certification is another issue worth of its own thread. If you are certified in your country to translate into a “foreign” language, as it is the case in Brazil or Argentina, for instance, should you be excluded from bidding? The client has the right, but is he, she or it wrong?
IMHO the solution lies in translation agency PMs - unless they are working for bottom-feeding sweat shops - to understand that their job is not so simple, thoughtfully set apart the actual must-haves from the desirables on each job they outsource, and mentally envision a quick decision matrix for it. They should refrain from using native-only, must have Trados, must live in East Slobovia merely as unrelated mechanical devices to shortlist the number of candidates they'll have to consider.
On the Proz side, a solution would be that scoreboard - I think I suggested it somewhere on this thread - that would advise a job poster on the number of candidates left in real time upon each criterion checked/unchecked. Of course, no PM would sift through 5,000 candidates for a $300 job, and this should help them quickly get to a workable number on *relatively* sound criteria.
Another option I suggested was to let logged-in Prozians send a short (e.g. 200 chars) message to a job poster, NOT revealing the latter's contact info or identity, even if they don't meet the must-have criteria. This would allow advising them, e.g. on sworn translation legal requirements, offer SME non-native services etc.
| | | | | Nicole, I think you seem to neglect | Aug 2, 2013 |
the fact that I have spent at least 3/4 of my professional life in law firms, courthouses and police precincts. Of course I am not intending to give any kind of legal advice -- a disclaimer. I was not even supposed to say anything about any legal matter, but I did.
| | | | Nicole Schnell
United States
Local time: 04:12
English to German
+ ...
In memoriam | Thanks, Lilian | Aug 2, 2013 |
LilianBNekipelo wrote:
Nicole, I think you seem to neglect the fact that I have spent at least 3/4 of my professional life in law firms, courthouses and police precincts. Of course I am not intending to give any kind of legal advice -- a disclaimer. I was not even supposed to say anything else about any legal matters, but I did.
We simply run a business lawfully and by the book. I still will not have our phone answered by an employee with a foreign accent or our correspondence to be proofread before it can be sent to the client. Please get real...
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| See, Nicole-- this may really be illegal. | Aug 2, 2013 |
Nicole Schnell wrote: LilianBNekipelo wrote:
Nicole, I think you seem to neglect the fact that I have spent at least 3/4 of my professional life in law firms, courthouses and police precincts. Of course I am not intending to give any kind of legal advice -- a disclaimer. I was not even supposed to say anything else about any legal matters, but I did.
We simply run a business lawfully and by the book. I still will not have our phone answered by an employee with a foreign accent or our correspondence to be proofread before it can be sent to the client. Please get real...
I think it may be wise not to advertise it, at least. You can hire however you think will do the job best, but you cannot require certain things. What you said is illegal, but in practice -- how would anyone be able to prove it, if you don't advertise it, or openly say it? It may only be justified if someone's accent made it hard for other people to understand what they are saying, especially if the person is a receptionist, not that it would merely be an indication of someone's origin.
Of course, I don't support any type of discrimination, even hidden. I understand, however, that certain standards have to be met.
[Edited at 2013-08-02 12:50 GMT]
| | | | Ty Kendall
United Kingdom
Local time: 12:12
Hebrew to English
| It's like an episode of COPS | Aug 2, 2013 |
Nicole Schnell wrote:
We simply run a business lawfully and by the book. I still will not have our phone answered by an employee with a foreign accent or our correspondence to be proofread before it can be sent to the client. Please get real...
Liliana wrote:
See, Nicole-- this may really be illegal.
Can you hear the sirens Nicole? I think they're coming to get you
| | | | | No jail right away -- not that fast | Aug 2, 2013 |
It costs a lot of money to keep someone in jail.
I am sure it must be similar in GB. You cannot deny anyone employment just because they speak with a Scottish accent, or Welsh? I don't even want to mention other accents.
As to smoking underwater -- yes, it may actually not be allowed onboard of any submarines and of course, any place in New York City. They may actually have underwater parlors for smokers one day, so they don't spoil the quality of the street air. ... See more It costs a lot of money to keep someone in jail.
I am sure it must be similar in GB. You cannot deny anyone employment just because they speak with a Scottish accent, or Welsh? I don't even want to mention other accents.
As to smoking underwater -- yes, it may actually not be allowed onboard of any submarines and of course, any place in New York City. They may actually have underwater parlors for smokers one day, so they don't spoil the quality of the street air.
[Edited at 2013-08-02 13:13 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Nicole Schnell
United States
Local time: 04:12
English to German
+ ...
In memoriam | Lilian, get informed or stop right now | Aug 2, 2013 |
LilianBNekipelo wrote:
I think it may be wise not to advertise it, at least. You can hire however you think will do the job best, but you cannot require certain things. What you said is illegal, but in practice -- how would anyone be able to prove it, if you don't advertise it, or openly say it? It may only be justified if someone's accent made it hard for other people to understand what they are saying, especially if the person is a receptionist, not that it would merely be an indication of someone's origin.
Of course, I don't support any type of discrimination, even hidden. I understand, however, that certain standards have to be met.
America doesn't consist of Brooklyn alone. Dare to leave your nanny state exile once in a while and dare to explore the rest of the continent. NYC is neither capital nor center of the US.
Do also not dare again to say that what I say is illegal. This insult is outrageous and you are embarrassing yourself. Get your nose into some books or government websites instead and learn. For example that certain laws apply to companies with 15, 25, 50, 500 employees and over only. Also make sure that none of your clients are reading your posts regarding what you consider "illegal".
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| I am thoroughly informed | Aug 2, 2013 |
I guess I should really change the subject. And NYC may actually be the capital of the world -- this is what they say at least -- including all the five boroughs.
As to the rest-- it is not as simple, Nicole, as you see it. No newspaper in New York, at least, would accept an add --" Nanny needed -- a Spanish native speaker and a non-smoker required". Perhaps "fluent in Spanish and a non-smoker preferred". I think most mothers don't employ over 50 people.
The people ... See more I guess I should really change the subject. And NYC may actually be the capital of the world -- this is what they say at least -- including all the five boroughs.
As to the rest-- it is not as simple, Nicole, as you see it. No newspaper in New York, at least, would accept an add --" Nanny needed -- a Spanish native speaker and a non-smoker required". Perhaps "fluent in Spanish and a non-smoker preferred". I think most mothers don't employ over 50 people.
The people who I do most work for can see it -- they will be proud.
[Edited at 2013-08-02 13:53 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Nicole Schnell
United States
Local time: 04:12
English to German
+ ...
In memoriam | @Ty: I have no idea what planet I am on right now. | Aug 2, 2013 |
Ty Kendall wrote: Liliana wrote:
See, Nicole-- this may really be illegal. It's like an episode of COPS Can you hear the sirens Nicole? I think they're coming to get you
Someone please beam me back home from the Delta Quadrant to my United States...
| | | | Balasubramaniam L.
India
Local time: 16:42
Member (2006)
English to Hindi
+ ...
SITE LOCALIZER | This would be a noteworthy improvement to the site | Aug 2, 2013 |
José Henrique Lamensdorf wrote:
Another option I suggested was to let logged-in Prozians send a short (e.g. 200 chars) message to a job poster, NOT revealing the latter's contact info or identity, even if they don't meet the must-have criteria. This would allow advising them, e.g. on sworn translation legal requirements, offer SME non-native services etc.
It would be a long haul to get PMs deintoxicated from the pernicious hold of the native translator habit, but a feature like this will at least allow translators to alert errant PMs showing over-indulgence to this habit to be more discerning, and eventually, it could be hoped, that they would mend their ways.
But the trouble is, while this may have a salutary effect on the more particular PMs, the ones who know little about translation requirements and who take a formulaic approach to running their businesses would get no wiser by such words of good advice and they would continue merrily on the path to disaster on the backs of their favoured native translators.
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