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| | XXXphxxx (X) 
United Kingdom
Local time: 20:01
Portuguese to English
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Apologies if I erroneously attributed that statement to you. If I'm not mistaken you do often refer to Europe as being a largely monolingual society - thus the confusion. I'm still baffled by statements such as:
Balasubramaniam L. wrote:
Most Europeans and Americans coming from mono-lingual backgrounds simply are unable to understand the linguistic diversity of places like India. They try to impose their mono-lingual understanding of language acquisition on people from multi-lingual backgrounds.
Who are these people imposing their understanding on others? Is this a reference to the people who write the rules about translating into one's native language? Since these people are, by and large, translation professionals, why do you assume they are monolingual?
As for:
Balasubramaniam L. wrote:
yes some of you really would speak a poor version of your language when compared to some inhabitants of the former colonies.
It's a meaningless comparison. You're comparing an educated Indian/Jamaican/Nigerian... with an uneducated Brit. Or are you saying that an educated Brit speaks a poor version of English when compared to an educated Indian?
| | | | Lincoln Hui
Hong Kong
Local time: 03:01
Member
Chinese to English
+ ...
| If clients and PMs are all translation professionals, half the threads on ProZ won't exist | Jul 26, 2013 |
Lisa Simpson, MCIL wrote:
Who are these people imposing their understanding on others? Is this a reference to the people who write the rules about translating into one's native language? Since these people are, by and large, translation professionals, why do you assume they are monolingual?
The less-than-competent translators in English who claim English as their native language are ALL, by definition, language professionals.
| | | | | I agree with Balasubramaniam and Lincoln here. | Jul 26, 2013 |
I think by monolingual Europeans he mostly meant the people who just speak German, let's say, and a little bit of another language that they learned in school, or some French people from smaller towns, any cultural group speaking their own language really -- not that all European would speak one language and thus be monolingual -- he meant monolingual within their cultural group, I am sure. Yes, many people in Europe, or even in some less diverse places in the US, may not understand that certai... See more I think by monolingual Europeans he mostly meant the people who just speak German, let's say, and a little bit of another language that they learned in school, or some French people from smaller towns, any cultural group speaking their own language really -- not that all European would speak one language and thus be monolingual -- he meant monolingual within their cultural group, I am sure. Yes, many people in Europe, or even in some less diverse places in the US, may not understand that certain regions in the world are characterized by a real abundance of languages, and many of their inhabitants are multilingual.
I also agree with Lincoln that 90% (in my opinion) outsourcing companies, and especially their administrative personal, have no idea what they want when they are asking for target language native speakers to translate from Estonian or Tajik to English with the new version of X CAT tool, X diploma and five years of experience. Any mechanical, universal approach to things is often dangerous, in any field. They should be aware that their odds of finding a person like that are lower than hitting the lotto, simply because such translators do not exist, or are really rare -- to be counted on the fingers of one hand.
And I am sorry, Bernhard, but you are absolutely not allowed to ask anybody anything about their native language in New York -- I am really up to date with the protocol, exactly the same way as you cannot ask anyone any questions about their age or religion. Interpreters, lawyers, or court reporters would never could never ask the litigant what their native language is. They can only ask which language they understand and speak the best. I am not sure if it is the same in every state, but I think these are federal rules based on the human rights laws -- perhaps sometimes just not being closely followed by some companies.
I don't agree that a person's L1 is usually getting better with age if they have lived in another country most of their life -- it is usually getting much worse, although of course it may depend on the language, the person's attachment to their L1, exposure to it, reluctance to adopt other cultures and languages as their own, and possibly some other factors. I agree with you, Bernhard, however, that the term "native language"in reference to mostly monolingual people is not a problematic term -- it is the only language they speak well. The problem starts with monolingual people, especially living in various different countries over their life time, in multilingual households, etc.
[Edited at 2013-07-26 09:14 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Ty Kendall
United Kingdom
Local time: 20:01
Hebrew to English
| No shortage of languages in Europe | Jul 26, 2013 |
LilianBNekipelo wrote:
certain regions in the world are characterized by a real abundance of languages, and many of their inhabitants are multilingual
Just like Europe.
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| Which regions in Europe do you consider really multilingual, Ty | Jul 26, 2013 |
where people speak at least three languages from their early childhood?
[Edited at 2013-07-26 09:18 GMT]
| | | | Ty Kendall
United Kingdom
Local time: 20:01
Hebrew to English
| Why do you keep making this erroneous claim? | Jul 26, 2013 |
LilianBNekipelo wrote:
And I am sorry, Bernhard, but you are absolutely not allowed to ask anybody anything about their native language in New York -- I am really up to date with the protocol, exactly the same way as you cannot ask anyone any questions about their age or religion. Interpreters, lawyers, or court reporters would never could never ask the litigant what their native language is. They can only ask which language they understand and speak the best. I am not sure if it is the same in every state, but I think these are federal rules based on the human rights laws -- perhaps sometimes just not being closely followed by some companies.
Of course you are allowed, I believe it was Michele Fauble who recently elucidated the law for you on these forums.
| | | | Ty Kendall
United Kingdom
Local time: 20:01
Hebrew to English
| Ever heard of Switzerland? | Jul 26, 2013 |
LilianBNekipelo wrote:
where people speak at least three languages from their early childhood?
[Edited at 2013-07-26 09:18 GMT]
It's a nice country. Official languages: German, French, Italian, and Romansh.
| | | | Erik Freitag
Germany
Local time: 21:01
Member (2006)
Dutch to German
+ ...
| Official languages vs. languages individually spoken | Jul 26, 2013 |
Ty Kendall wrote: LilianBNekipelo wrote:
where people speak at least three languages from their early childhood?
[Edited at 2013-07-26 09:18 GMT] It's a nice country. Official languages: German, French, Italian, and Romansh.
The fact that Switzerland has four official languages does not mean that the individual inhabitants actually use all of them (which is what Lilian is talking about, if I understood her correctly).
I'd venture to say that the average Swiss speaks his or her mother tongue plus one of the other official languages, probably plus English.
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XXXphxxx (X)
United Kingdom
Local time: 20:01
Portuguese to English
+ ...
| Off the top of my head | Jul 26, 2013 |
efreitag wrote:
The fact that Switzerland has four official languages does not mean that the individual inhabitants actually use all of them (which is what Lilian is talking about, if I understood her correctly).
I'd venture to say that the average Swiss speaks his or her mother tongue plus one of the other official languages, probably plus English.
You may be right, although I believe the Romansh-speaking canton is trilingual. It would be interesting to know. Any Swiss here able to confirm?
Having spent a lot of time in Andorra I can tell you that pretty much everyone appears to be trilingual in Catalan, Spanish and French. Does that count?
[Edited at 2013-07-26 09:45 GMT]
| | | | Ty Kendall
United Kingdom
Local time: 20:01
Hebrew to English
| I know...... | Jul 26, 2013 |
efreitag wrote: Ty Kendall wrote: LilianBNekipelo wrote:
where people speak at least three languages from their early childhood?
[Edited at 2013-07-26 09:18 GMT] It's a nice country. Official languages: German, French, Italian, and Romansh. The fact that Switzerland has four official languages does not mean that the individual inhabitants actually use all of them (which is what Lilian is talking about, if I understood her correctly). I'd venture to say that the average Swiss speaks his or her mother tongue plus one of the other official languages, probably plus English.
Conversely, the fact that South Africa and India have dozens of official languages also doesn't mean that their populations speak them all.
I'm just finding it insulting being told that Europeans simply can't understand multilingualism.
[Edited at 2013-07-26 09:47 GMT]
| | | | Erik Freitag
Germany
Local time: 21:01
Member (2006)
Dutch to German
+ ...
Ty Kendall wrote:
Conversely, the fact that South Africa and India have dozens of official languages also doesn't mean that their populations speak them all.
I'm just finding it insulting being told that Europeans simply can't understand multilingualism.
[Edited at 2013-07-26 09:47 GMT]
Sure, I'm all on your side there. I don't know whether this might be different in India (as an example).
| | | | | I have never made any erroneous claims -- unfortunately certain protocolsare interanldocuments | Jul 26, 2013 |
so I cannot provide you with the links. Switzerland is not India, and I don't think all of its inhabitants speak all those languages, even though they are official languages. there are 27 official languages in Russian, which does not mean that every Russian person speaks 27 languages. Some countries in Eastern Europe are quite multilingual -- like the Ukraine, where many people speak Russian, Ukrainian and Polish. (in Lvov) Wales, perhaps.
[Edited at 2013-07-26 09:59 GMT]
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| Most Italians speak two languages... | Jul 26, 2013 |
Italian and their own dialect, which often is a completely different language. For example, I'm from the South. When I go to Venice and they speak dialect, I don't understand a single word... let's not mention regions like Trentino and Valle d'Aosta...
| | | | Balasubramaniam L.
India
Local time: 00:31
Member (2006)
English to Hindi
+ ...
SITE LOCALIZER | Why the native-only refrain is detrimental to our profession | Jul 26, 2013 |
Lisa Simpson, MCIL wrote: Apologies if I erroneously attributed that statement to you. If I'm not mistaken you do often refer to Europe as being a largely monolingual society - thus the confusion. I'm still baffled by statements such as: Balasubramaniam L. wrote:
Most Europeans and Americans coming from mono-lingual backgrounds simply are unable to understand the linguistic diversity of places like India. They try to impose their mono-lingual understanding of language acquisition on people from multi-lingual backgrounds.
Who are these people imposing their understanding on others? Is this a reference to the people who write the rules about translating into one's native language? Since these people are, by and large, translation professionals, why do you assume they are monolingual? As for:
Balasubramaniam L. wrote:
yes some of you really would speak a poor version of your language when compared to some inhabitants of the former colonies.
It's a meaningless comparison. You're comparing an educated Indian/Jamaican/Nigerian... with an uneducated Brit. Or are you saying that an educated Brit speaks a poor version of English when compared to an educated Indian?
No, I am not saying that a well-educated Brit would speak poorer English than an Indian well-educated in English. The Brit would have equal competency over English as the Indian.
But the native-only refrain goes against this fact, which is why it is inimical to our profession. There are two main ways in which it does harm:
1. It emboldens natives with poor writing skills and poor understanding or knowledge of translation to set up shop taking advantage of the false prestige we bestow on the native-only theory. With the result that we get an avalanche of poorly done translation which brings disrepute on our profession.
2. It excludes competent non-native translation professionals from doing these jobs, which then often goes to incompetent native translators, with the result that translation quality suffers, again bringing disrepute to our profession.
The solution is clearly to look for proficiency in translation and language skills and not for fibs like native language status.
| | | | | In the US it would be considered discrimination --I am not sure why it would be allowed in other | Jul 26, 2013 |
counties. You don't have to have any native fluency to be a doctor, a lawyer, a governor even, so definitely this is not something that can be required from translator, although in practice all translators translate into their best language, or sometimes when there is no one else to do the job into a language they are absolutely fluent in. Some lawyers listen to the interpreter's interpretation in court because they cannot understand some judges (some bilingual lawyers who use other languages a... See more counties. You don't have to have any native fluency to be a doctor, a lawyer, a governor even, so definitely this is not something that can be required from translator, although in practice all translators translate into their best language, or sometimes when there is no one else to do the job into a language they are absolutely fluent in. Some lawyers listen to the interpreter's interpretation in court because they cannot understand some judges (some bilingual lawyers who use other languages at home). (It is the ethnicity point in Wikipedia, Ty, just in case you did not know where this restriction falls)
[Edited at 2013-07-26 12:21 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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