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Ang. konnten bez. einer Obd. nicht befragt werden
Einheitswert
Jun 4, 2020 10:41
3 yrs ago
52 viewers *
German term

höhere Gewalt wie hoheitliche Eingriffe

German to English Bus/Financial Law: Contract(s) AGBs
Treten auf unserer Seite oder bei unseren Vorlieferanten Ereignisse außerhalb unserer Einflussmöglichkeiten auf, z. B. höhere Gewalt wie hoheitliche Eingriffe, Aus- und/ oder Einfuhrverbote, Arbeitskämpfe in eigenen und fremden Betrieben, Verzögerung oder Ausfall der Anlieferung wesentlicher Rohstoffe, Materialien oder Teile, Maschinenschaden oder Stromausfall, verlängert sich die Lieferfrist - auch bei bereits bestehendem Lieferverzug - angemessen.

My question is about the 'wie'. I can't work out if it means 'such as' or if it is a connector with the meaning of 'and'. I am inclined towards the former, but am doubting myself.
Proposed translations (English)
4 +6 force majeure such as state interventions
3 +2 force majeure, public authority interventions
3 +1 force majeure including acts of government
3 acts beyond our control....
Votes to reclassify question as PRO/non-PRO:

Non-PRO (1): TechLawDC

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Discussion

Carolyn Brice (asker) Jun 4, 2020:
Definitely overcooked There should be an option to split points, as everyone here has been very helpful in the discussion and has put forward good solutions. My job description here was simply to update the existing older version of the English with the tracked changes in the new German version. As such, I agree that the English is overcooked, and so I have asked the client to clarify their intended meaning, just to be sure. As I'm sure everyone knows, lawyers and grammar do not always get along ;-)
Leighton Jacobs Jun 4, 2020:
Indeed, it sounded better when I first typed it but it's no improvement at all. Maybe without the "such as" is the optimum after all?
Chris Pr Jun 4, 2020:
"such as" and "including"... ...are obviously direct synonyms...
Leighton Jacobs Jun 4, 2020:
That's a good point, "e.g. force majeure such as" is certainly poor style. I think you could potentially get around this issue though by using different words and rephrasing, perhaps using "including" to start the list?
Lancashireman Jun 4, 2020:
such as How many of the following elements are included (hoheitliche Eingriffe, Aus- und/ oder Einfuhrverbote, Arbeitskämpfe in eigenen und fremden Betrieben, Verzögerung oder Ausfall der Anlieferung wesentlicher Rohstoffe, Materialien oder Teile, Maschinenschaden oder Stromausfall)? There are quite a few mentioned. In fact, it seems to be an exhaustive list of what constitutes force majeure. And just look at those three 'oders' later on. 'Or' for each of them in English? After all, their use is quite *deliberate*.
Lancashireman Jun 4, 2020:
Re deliberate change How will you deal with z.B. in the English version? "z.B. ... wie" may be acceptable to a German reader (surprised there isn't an "unter anderem" for good measure at the end of the sentence) but "for example ... such as" sounds overcooked in English.
Carolyn Brice (asker) Jun 4, 2020:
Thank you! I agree, since this was a deliberate change, I will use such as. Thanks everyone for your valuable time.
Leighton Jacobs Jun 4, 2020:
Yeah, I would agree. I imagine the company has changed the comma to a "wie" for precisely this reason and to make it clear that it now considers state intervention as force majeure.

I also agree with you both on "state intervention" as the best solution here for "hoheitliche eingriffe".
Chris Pr Jun 4, 2020:
Think in terms of this era of sanctions, blockades, embargoes etc and state intervention would have to be deemed force majeure for business interests....
Leighton Jacobs Jun 4, 2020:
Force majeure though varies across legal systems, so while it commonly refers to floods, earthquakes, hurricanes, etc. it can also include acts of war, terrorist activities, labour disputes, interruption or failure of electricity or communications systems, etc.

The "Force Majeure Clauses: Key Issues by Practical Law Commercial Transactions" does in fact include "government acts" under a list of force majeure events. (https://uk.practicallaw.thomsonreuters.com/5-524-2181?transi...

So I wouldn't be too quick to dismiss the possibility that this is indeed referring to government acts as force majeure.
David Hollywood Jun 4, 2020:
you already have z.B. (e.g) and force majeure is only 1 example, so what follows is ok with "and"
Leighton Jacobs Jun 4, 2020:
"Such as" in that case I would definitely use "such as" given that it must have been changed for a reason, which you have to assume is to demonstrate that government acts will now be considered force majeure.
Carolyn Brice (asker) Jun 4, 2020:
The comma issue I should add, that this job is to update an older version of the AGBs, whereby the person editing the text deleted the original comma and added the word 'wie'. Hence my doubts as to whether this is another item in the list...
Lancashireman Jun 4, 2020:
Standard phrasing without 'wie' 'höhere Gewalt' is just an item in the list along with the others. The author may have forgotten/overlooked that the list is introduced by 'z.B.'.
Google search (with double quotes) reveals that this is standard phrasing for contracts.

Proposed translations

+6
45 mins
Selected

force majeure such as state interventions

"Also strike, lock-out, mobilisation, war, blockade, export and import bans and other state intervention are deemed to be force majeure regardless of whether they occur on our part or on the part of our supplier."
https://www.doehler.com/en/terms-conditions.html

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 49 mins (2020-06-04 11:31:17 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

"Der höheren Gewalt stehen Streik, Aussperrung, Mobilmachung, Krieg, Blockade, Aus- und Einfuhrverbote und sonstige hoheitliche Eingriffe gleich, und zwar einerlei, ob sie bei uns oder unserem Lieferanten eintreten."
https://www.doehler.com/de/agb.html
Peer comment(s):
agree philgoddard : It's redundant, because you don't need to give examples of force majeure.
8 mins
agree David Hollywood
21 mins
agree Andreea Sepi, MCIL (X)
2 hrs
neutral Lancashireman : As Phil says in one of his typically Delphic agrees "It's redundant, because you don't need to give examples of force majeure." // But I would argue that "wie" here means "and" (Robin B). With agrees like these, who needs disagrees?
2 hrs
An "exceptional" example of force majeure seems to be the common consensus in the DB...
agree RobinB : But I would argue that "wie" here means "and". This is a common usage in German legal texts in particular. Also, I'm glad we seem to have moved away from "acts of princes or rulers"!
8 hrs
agree Harald Moelzer (medical-translator)
19 hrs
agree AllegroTrans
3 days 40 mins
Something went wrong...
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Thanks again for your help, I graded based on peer agrees, although Leighton and Michael were equally as helpful."
+2
22 mins

force majeure, public authority interventions

Possibly an error because this seems to be a set phrase and almost never appears with "wie" but rather a comma instead

E.g. "Treten Leistungshindernisse außerhalb der Einflussmöglichkeiten des Verkäufers auf, z. B. höhere Gewalt, hoheitliche Eingriffe, Aus- und/oder Einfuhrverbote, Arbeitskämpfe" (https://www.lettsfit.de/agb.html)

Besides, I don't think government acts can generally be considered force majeure?


--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 42 mins (2020-06-04 11:24:00 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

As it was purposefully changed from a comma to "wie", I would now suggest using "such as" because you have to assume that the company is thereby specifying that government acts will be considered force majeure.
Note from asker:
That's exactly my conundrum, the editor of the source text removed the comma and added the 'wie', so I guess my question is whether government acts are considered force majeure? Possibly a question for the author.
Peer comment(s):
agree Adrian MM. : wie: either such as or sowie: as well as....
5 mins
agree Lancashireman : See comment in Discussion Box
2 hrs
Something went wrong...
+1
4 hrs

force majeure including acts of government

Force majeure and acts of government are usually treated separately. But occasionally there are attempts to treat acts of government as force majeure. See below:

"Obviously Hurricane Harvey and similar catastrophic acts of God are events that are neither anticipated and cannot be controlled by any supplier. Nevertheless, many suppliers also try to expand the list of unforeseen events to include “acts of the government”. In fact, in the wake of the cleanup efforts, several residents of Houston filed a lawsuit, Val Aldred et al. v. Harris County Flood Control District and the City of Houston, claiming that the Army Corps of Engineers intentionally flooded and “took” their property because the Corps released water from a reservoir to avoid more widespread flooding if the reservoir overflowed." https://www.lexology.com/library/detail.aspx?g=93ec153f-f03b...

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 7 hrs (2020-06-04 18:08:09 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Maybe this should have read "höhere Gewalt SOWIE hoheitliche Eingriffe.."
Peer comment(s):
neutral Chris Pr : // The synonym, as mentioned in the DB, is 'included' for 'such as', so I think you're missing the point entirely...
31 mins
It's getting old, Chris.. 'Acts of government' is state of the art for 'höhere Gewalt' and 'including', unlike 'such as', permits us to group items together that are not strictly the same. Exactly what we need here.
agree Mary Harris : Agree here strictly on the basis that “including” is the better synonym since it more strongly infers “, but not limited to”. The entire clause isn´t particularly iron-clad, so every little bit will help.
1 day 20 hrs
Thanks, Mary. You put it well. Same point I was trying to explain to Chris.
Something went wrong...
2 days 12 hrs

acts beyond our control....

like governmental intervention

Force majeure is generally restricted to the forces of nature, like quakes, fire, flooding, or war, not actions by fiat, e.g. governmental intrusion or human whims
Peer comment(s):
neutral Chris Pr : Good point apropos 'restricted to forces of nature', but here unambiguously adding state interventions to that list - and very deliberately, too...
9 hrs
Something went wrong...
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