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langs gekoppelde douches
gew.
May 31, 2018 11:50
5 yrs ago
2 viewers *
Dutch term

verslechteringsvoorstellen

Dutch to English Bus/Financial Other Trade union
Dear all,

This terminology used in the context of trade union negotiations.

Thanks for quick response!
Proposed translations (English)
5 regressive bargaining / regressive proposals
4 +1 proposed concessions; concessionary proposals
References
context
Refs

Discussion

Kitty Brussaard Jun 7, 2018:
FWIW (post-grading) proposed concessions or concessionary proposals

My first. last and final offer :-) Also posted as an answer for future reference.
Barend van Zadelhoff Jun 4, 2018:
As already indicated.
Pretty obvious all this.
Kitty Brussaard Jun 4, 2018:
As said before, negative bargaining proposals (see Michael's first D-box entry and his reference comment) would IMO really be the best/safest translation to use here. Note also that bringing negative proposals to the bargaining table needs not necessarily be taken as an act of bad faith by the other side. Especially if such proposals are made under economic pressure. See f.i. https://www.vkp-belang.nl/inhoud/uploads/VHKP-Nieuwsbericht-...
Barend van Zadelhoff Jun 4, 2018:
As far as this is concerned:

"First, they can offer extremely negative bargaining proposals that fail to offer any improvements in wages or benefits"

All these are 'verslechteringsvoorstellen', which may differ in details.

Get it?
Barend van Zadelhoff Jun 4, 2018:
I am just explaining why I said what I said, whether right or wrong.

Just to let you know what was going on beneath the crown of my skull.
Richard Purdom Jun 4, 2018:
Barend, 'fail to offer any improvements' from your link is NOT the same as 'when one party in collective bargaining presents a counter proposal that is of lesser value than their previous offer' from my link. No improvement is NOT a deterioration.

However, if you are so sure, and you must be considering your tenacity, why don't you put up an answer?
Barend van Zadelhoff Jun 4, 2018:
Vandaar:

I expect 'verslechteringsvoorstellen' is broader than 'regressive bargaining' and 'bad-faith bargaining' could be a general designation for them.
Barend van Zadelhoff Jun 4, 2018:
Ik dacht bij 'verslechteringsvoorstellen' aan allerlei voorstellen (de een een beetje beter, de ander een beetje slechter, maar dat is ook een kwestie van perceptie) - verslechtering t.o.v. de uitgangssituatie, uiteraard zou ik bijna zeggen - een en ander om de boel te traineren, frustreren, in de hoop dat de tegenstander het op een gegeven moment opgeeft.

Een en ander op grond van Michaels ref:
The NLRA prohibits bad faith bargaining ("surface bargaining"), but the law grants employers wide latitude to engage in tactics that frustrate negotiations and ultimately cause employees to give up their efforts at winning a union contract. Harvard Law School professor Paul Weiler identified ways in which employers can legally stave off a first contract. First, they can offer extremely negative bargaining proposals that fail to offer any improvements in wages or benefits, knowing that the union would never accept it."

Zo werkt het toch vaak in de praktijk.
En 'verslechteringsvoorstellen' in de boven beschreven zin is naadloos in die referentie in te passen.
Kitty Brussaard Jun 3, 2018:
@Richard I can see why this is confusing but, in this specific context, 'verslechteringsvoorstellen' really almost always refers to proposals (by the company/employer) that deviate negatively from the 'status quo' prior to bargaining, i.e. the existing collective agreement that is due to expire - or in some cases has already expired - and the terms of which need to be renewed). Such proposals are essentially 'bezuinigingsvoorstellen' and are typically brought to table (together with any other opening proposals) as the first step in the bargaining process, i.e. there is no reneging on proposals already (tentatively) agreed to at an earlier stage in the bargaining process.

Obviously, I can't say for sure if this common meaning also applies to asker's text/context, Should I be proven wrong and your answer right, I will be happy to change my 'neutral' into an 'agree'.
Richard Purdom Jun 3, 2018:
http://www.hhsta.org/what-is-regressive-bargaining “Regressive bargaining” in this example is when one party in collective bargaining presents a counter proposal that is of lesser value than their previous offer.

'Lesser value' is a 'verslechtering' imho, anders weet it het allemaal niet meer.
Barend van Zadelhoff Jun 3, 2018:
statistics Als je verder huiswerk doet (wat jij natuurlijk hebt gedaan) en dan nu naar het gebruik van 'verslechteringsvoorstellen' in de praktijk/Google-voorbeelden, dan zou je kunnen zeggen dat die 'verslechteringsvoorstellen' in de meeste van die praktische gevallen binnen de marges van de normale koehandel vallen.
Dus je zou kunnen zeggen dat, statistisch gezien, de kans dat je gelijk hebt redelijk groot is.

Toch zonder verdere context in het geval van de vraagstelster blijft 'bad faith bargaining' een optie, kunnen die 'verslechteringsvoorstellen' te kwader trouw zijn.

En wat ik zeg, 'verslechteringsvoorstellen' klinkt verdacht, kunnen, op het gehoor, makkelijk verwijzen naar onredelijke eisen, unfair tactics.

En schijn bedriegt, tot op zekere hoogte.
Kitty Brussaard Jun 3, 2018:
Dit klinkt wat gelijkhebberig: 'Volgens mij haal je hier toch echt een aantal zaken door elkaar.' :-)

Je hebt helemaal gelijk! Ik ben in dit geval ook overtuigd van mijn eigen gelijk. En met goede redenen. Niets mis mee toch?
Barend van Zadelhoff Jun 3, 2018:
Ik weet waar 'bad faith bargaining' naar verwijst, Kitty.
Ik heb mijn huiswerk ook gedaan.

Wat ik zeg dat die 'Verslechteringsvoorstellen' bedoeld kunnen zijn als 'tactics'.

Zeker als ze terugkomen met iets wat - als je het voorstel goed analyseert - slechter was dan eerdere voorstellen.

Sowieso vind ik 'Verslechteringsvoorstellen' verdacht klinken.

Jouw lezing kan ook juist zijn.

Dit klinkt wat gelijkhebberig: 'Volgens mij haal je hier toch echt een aantal zaken door elkaar.' :-)
Kitty Brussaard Jun 3, 2018:
@Barend Volgens mij haal je hier toch echt een aantal zaken door elkaar.

Bad faith bargaining verwijst naar het in een of andere vorm te kwader trouw handelen tijdens het verloop van de onderhandelingen en veronderstelt idd de intentie om dit proces moedwillig te frustreren (en niet tot afspraken te komen). Voorbeelden: https://www.usw.org/workplaces/public-sector/2015-conference...

Regressive bargaining verwijst naar het terugkomen op eerder in het onderhandelingsproces gemaakte voorlopige afspraken door nieuwe of gewijzigde voorstellen op tafel te leggen. Dit kan een vorm van bad faith bargaining zijn, maar zie eerdere opmerking over 'intentie'.

Verslechteringsvoorstellen heeft m.i. niets met het bovenstaande van doen. Deze term verwijst in deze context vrijwel altijd naar voorstellen waarmee partijen (doorgaans de werkgevers) de onderhandelingen ingaan en 'verslechtering' betekent in dit geval dat de voorstellen een verslechtering inhouden ten opzichte van de huidige cao-afspraken (de 'status quo', EN status quo prior to bargaining). Zie bijv. https://tinyurl.com/y8hoex6u.
Barend van Zadelhoff Jun 3, 2018:
As I said, ''bad faith bargaining" might be a good option here but requires proof of intent. / / I expect 'verslechteringsvoorstellen' is broader than...

Nobody can say for sure what is correct here, given scarce context.

In collective bargaining, surface bargaining is a strategy in which one of the parties "merely goes through the motions," with no intention of reaching an agreement.[1][2] In this regard, it is a form of bad faith bargaining.[1]

Distinguishing surface bargaining from good faith bargaining is extremely difficult.[3] The entire history of the negotiations must be assessed, including the party's intent, efforts made toward reaching an agreement, and any behavior which may be seen as inhibiting the bargaining process.[4][5] Surface bargaining tactics may include making proposals the other party could never accept, taking inflexible or unreasonable stands on issues, and/or refusing to offer alternatives to proposals.[5][6] Reneging on agreements already reached during the collective bargaining process, raising new issues late in the negotiations, or failing to ...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surface_bargaining
Kitty Brussaard Jun 1, 2018:
@Michael I'm not sure at all about regressive bargaining/proposals here. From what I understand, regressive bargaining means presenting new/modified proposals and thus reneging on proposals to which the parties had already tentatively agreed at an earlier stage in the bargaining process. In other words, they refer to one of the parties changing its bargaining position during the process (often but not necessarily with the aim of frustrating this process).

Verslechteringsvoorstellen, on the other hand, can be brought to the table right at the start of the process and, more importantly, the implication of 'verslechtering' here being that such proposals, if agreed on, would result in a step backward (for one of the parties) compared to the 'status quo' prior to the bargaining.

So it seems your initial hunches were pretty accurate and negative (bargaining) proposals will probably do nicely here. Have a good weekend!
Michael Beijer Jun 1, 2018:
so sort of like I said above: "proposals that will end up making things worse (verslechteringsvoorstellen)"

But isn't this exactly what "regressive bargaining proposals" are?
Kitty Brussaard Jun 1, 2018:
See also the first link in Michael's reference comment. In this specific context, 'verslechteringsvoorstellen' refers to proposals that would mean a deterioration from the status quo (at least for one of the parties) if they were to be agreed on. In other words, 'verslechtering' in the sense of a step backward (for one of the parties) compared to the status quo prior to bargaining.
Michael Beijer Jun 1, 2018:
there seems to be a scale:
1. constructive/positive bargaining proposals [= verbeteringsvoorstellen?]: that offer improvements in wages or benefits
2. neutral bargaining proposals: that fail to offer any improvements in wages or benefits
3. negative/regressive bargaining proposals [= verslechteringsvoorstellen?]: that substitute prior proposals with less advantageous ones

see e.g.:

"The Division noted that withdrawal of tentatively agreed-upon contract proposals could demonstrate bad-faith bargaining and substituting prior proposals with less advantageous ones (regressive proposals), could be viewed as unlawful if doing so was intended to frustrate the possibility of agreement."

(https://www.laborandcollectivebargaining.com/2015/04/article... )
Edith Doove (X) (asker) May 31, 2018:
Thanks all for your response. The deadline for editing the translation was brought forward and I had to go with the given translation although I was not completely satisfied with it - "proposals which may weaken the situation". @Michael the terminology is used on both sides, so both werkgevers and werknemers.
Michael Beijer May 31, 2018:
I assume that what is happening here is that an employer organisation is proposing bargaining proposals which a trade union or employee organisation is not happy with. So, instead of proposals aimed at making things better (verbeteringsvoorstellen), they are in fact proposals that will end up making things worse (verslechteringsvoorstellen).
Michael Beijer May 31, 2018:
@Edith: who is making these voorstellen? the werkgevers, or the werknemersorganisaties?
katerina turevich May 31, 2018:
it's negative predictions

right?
Michael Beijer May 31, 2018:
looks like the author merely means the opposite of "verbeteringsvoorstellen", so you will need to think of something clever...

what's yr exact context?

you might be able to use something like "negative (bargaining) proposals" or rewrite it a bit, like "proposals not likely to result in improvements", etc.

Proposed translations

10 hrs
Selected

regressive bargaining / regressive proposals

Peer comment(s):
neutral Barend van Zadelhoff : 'regressive bargaining' seems to be one specific form of 'bad faith bargaining'. https://tinyurl.com/y9sjs8zl I expect 'verslechteringsvoorstellen' is broader than 'regressive bargaining' and 'bad-faith bargaining' could be a general designation for them.
16 hrs
yeah I don't really get your point, are you proposing 'bad-faith bargaining'? Your interesting list lots which aren't 'voorstellen' at all. Why would you expect that? Have you got a constructive solution, or just cheering for failure? Have a nice weekend.
neutral Kitty Brussaard : Both terms usually refer to a party changing its bargaining position during the process (@BvZ: in itself not evidence of bad faith) whereas the source term implies a step backward (for one of the parties) compared to the status quo prior to bargaining.
21 hrs
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4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
+1
7 days

proposed concessions; concessionary proposals

Posted post-closing for future reference and to follow up on the discussion around this term (see D-box and reference comments).

As of September 11, 2015, the employer has made no proposals that would yield significant improvements for TSSU members. Instead, many of their proposals seek to remove rights and protections our members currently have. Unions characterize proposals which take things away from members as concessions. Below is an outline of the employer’s current proposed concessions.
http://bargaining.tssu.ca/our-proposals/employer-proposals/

This settlement with Extendicare is our leading bargaining breakthrough in an admittedly tough round of negotiations in the long-term care sector.
This tentative agreement includes enhancements in wages, benefits, vacation and weekend premium.
But more importantly, your bargaining committee resisted employer-proposed concessions that would reduce your sick pay benefits, and eliminate all benefits for part-time employees.
https://www.unifor.org/sites/default/files/documents/documen...

Unifor Marine Workers Federation Local 1 represents about 800 workers at the shipyard, which is owned by Irving Shipbuilding.

The workers’ current collective agreement expires Dec. 31. The two sides met for four days last month before the company requested a provincial conciliator.

More than 700 workers attended a union meeting Sunday updating them on the contract talks.

In a statement posted on social media, Unifor said the bargaining committee walked members through 33 pages of concessionary proposals from the employer.

“After a healthy discussion,” members voted 99 per cent in favour of a strike, the union said.

“The bargaining team remains optimistic that the conciliator will be able to convince the employer that a confrontational and concessionary approach is not the best way to reach a tentative agreement,” the union statement said.
http://thechronicleherald.ca/business/1526218-halifax-shipya...

UFCW Local 832 in Manitoba had their first day of bargaining today with Sobeys and were presented with a set of concessionary proposals from the company that would “effectively gut the collective agreement,” according to Jeff Traeger Local 832 President.
http://www.ufcw247.com/global_news_template.cfm?page=0117201...
Peer comment(s):
agree sindy cremer
4 days
Hartelijk dank!
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Reference comments

4 hrs
Reference:

context

as far as I can tell, this is Asker's exact context:

"Cao onder druk?
Onderzoek naar ontwikkelingen van collectieve arbeidsverhoudingen in relatie tot de cao

[…]

Volgens de vakbonden zijn die ‘moderniseringsvoorstellen’ niets anders dan verslechteringen van de bestaande cao. Medio mei 2015 verhardt zich de toon van de vakbeweging en worden massaal acties voorbereid. “Werkgevers komen alleen met verslechteringsvoorstellen naar de cao-tafel, terwijl mensen al jaren hebben ingeleverd. Als werkgevers op die manier de aanval zoeken, als zij op die manier radicaliseren, komen onze leden in verzet en gaan we actie voeren”(VK 5/2015).

https://www.deburcht.nl/userfiles/file/Eindrapport onderzoek...

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 4 hrs (2018-05-31 16:05:41 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

how about "negative bargaining proposals". see e.g.:

"The NLRA prohibits bad faith bargaining ("surface bargaining"), but the law grants employers wide latitude to engage in tactics that frustrate negotiations and ultimately cause employees to give up their efforts at winning a union contract. Harvard Law School professor Paul Weiler identified ways in which employers can legally stave off a first contract. First, they can offer extremely negative bargaining proposals that fail to offer any improvements in wages or benefits, knowing that the union would never accept it."

(http://www.forworkingfamilies.org/sites/pwf/files/documents/... )

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 day 2 hrs (2018-06-01 14:48:27 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Richard's ref.:

The National Labor Relations Board’s General Counsel’s Office, Division of Advice, has ordered dismissal of an unfair labor practice charge alleging bad faith “regressive” bargaining by a union. In this case, after the employees rejected decisively the employer’s final offer, the union bargaining team resumed negotiations with new demands and proposed modifications of previously agreed-upon items.

…

The Division also stated the union’s new demands, many of which addressed specific employee objections to the employer’s final offer, “… were not so ‘harsh, vindictive or otherwise unreasonable’ as to suggest they were offered in bad faith.” The Division further held the new and modified proposals reflected a strengthened bargaining position and thus a legitimate reason existed to seek improved terms the employees and the union could accept, thus, enhancing the possibility of reaching an agreement.

(https://www.laborandcollectivebargaining.com/2015/04/article... )
Peer comments on this reference comment:
neutral philgoddard : How do you know this is the context?
51 mins
from what she told us. I googled "verslechteringsvoorstellen" and looked for stuff in the context of "terminology used in the context of trade union negotiations."
agree Barend van Zadelhoff : Of course, in trade union negotiations 'verslechteringsvoorstellen' will be made by the employers rather than by the unions; 'bad faith bargaining' may be a good option.
22 hrs
Thank! Yes, that phrase "bad faith" [(te) kwade(r) trouw] has now popped up twice. It's also in Richard's ref. (which I just added to my own Reference comment)
neutral Kitty Brussaard : Helpful refs, especially the first one, but 'bad faith bargaining' is really not the right translation here. See also my comment on Richard's answer. / Not to worry, just commenting on Barend's remark that 'bad faith bargaining' might be a good option.
1 day 3 hrs
Thanks Kitty. Please note that I don't mean to suggest that the correct translation is "bad faith bargaining" (and neither did Richard, as far as I can tell). Just that it popped up twice. The closest I got was what I offered in my Discussion entries.
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3 days 4 hrs
Reference:

Refs

Per 1 juli 2016 loopt de CAO voor het grondpersoneel af. In tegenstelling tot voorgaande jaren stuurde de KLM haar CAO-voorstellen voor het eerst niet vooraf naar de grondbonden maar koos het bedrijf ervoor om tijdens het overleg van 29 april jl. uit de doeken te doen welke arbeidsvoorwaardelijke maatregelen ze wil nemen.

In een lange presentatie toonde de KLM maar liefst 60 pagina's van verslechteringsvoorstellen. Als deze KLM-voorstellen doorgaan dan raken ze diep in de arbeidsvoorwaarden van het grondpersoneel.
https://www.vkp-belang.nl/inhoud/uploads/VHKP-Nieuwsbericht-...

Cao-onderhandelingen PostNL

Afgelopen vrijdag 12 februari hebben de vakorganisaties, waaronder de VHP2, en PostNL hun inzetbrieven uitgewisseld.
(...)
De inzetbrief van PostNL bevat een aantal verslechteringsvoorstellen die een stevige negatieve impact hebben op de arbeidsvoorwaarden van een groot deel van de werknemers.
https://www.vhp2.nl/nl/actueel/cao-onderhandelingen-postnl-4...

Gisteren startten de onderhandelingen voor een nieuwe cao Universitair Medisch Centra (UMC’s). De huidige cao loopt af op 1 mei 2015 en geldt voor 67.000 medewerkers. De FNV wil vooral goede afspraken maken over loonsverhoging, werkzekerheid en duurzame inzetbaarheid. Dit laatste vooral in combinatie met onregelmatigheidsdiensten. De werkgever wil alvast vooruit lopen op de wet m.b.t. de ambtenarenstatus. Ondanks dat de Eerste Kamer deze wet nog moet behandelen, stelt de werkgever al diverse verslechteringsvoorstellen voor.
https://www.medicalfacts.nl/2015/03/18/onderhandelingen-nieu...

Eind april hebben wij jullie geïnformeerd over de verslechteringsvoorstellen, die werkgevers hebben gedaan voor de cao Railinfra. We hebben toen aangekondigd een vergelijking te maken tussen wat werkgevers willen en de huidige cao.
https://www.fnvbouw.nl/actueel/nieuws/paginas/Dreiging_volle...
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