Glossary entry (derived from question below)
French term or phrase:
Diplôme d\'Université
English translation:
Diplôme d\'Université (university-issued diploma)
French term
Diplôme d'Université
UNIVERSITE PARIS 1 PANTHEON-SORBONNE
DIPLÔME D'UNIVERSITÉ
Vu la délibération du conseil d'administration de l'université Vu les pièces justificatives produites par M. K. en vue de son inscript Diplôme d'Université Social sciences: Mathematical models in economics & finance Vu les procès-verbaux du jury attestant que l'intéressé a satisfait au contrôle des connaissances et des aptitudes prévu par les textes réglementaires le DIPLOME D'UNIVERSITE SOCIAL SCIENCES: MATHEMATICAL MODELS IN ECONOMICS& FINANCE est décerné à M. K. au titre de l'année universitaire 2018-2019.
Glossary entry | Conor McAuley |
Jan 17, 2022 13:27: writeaway changed "Field" from "Science" to "Social Sciences"
Jan 17, 2022 14:40: Rachel Fell changed "Level" from "PRO" to "Non-PRO"
PRO (1): AllegroTrans
Non-PRO (3): Lara Barnett, Carol Gullidge, Rachel Fell
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Proposed translations
Diplôme d'Université (university-issued diploma)
There is no such distinction in the UK, so what I definitely wouldn't do is just call it a 'university degree' - all degrees are university degrees here so it doesn't really say anything, this distinction would not usually be understood.
I would use the French name and provide an explanation.
They also seem to usually be something you would do alongside a 'licence' or other degree, so I have previously opted for 'diploma' when explaining what it is as 'degree' brings to mind a full-time three-year course
Thank you |
agree |
writeaway
1 min
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agree |
Lara Barnett
17 mins
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neutral |
philgoddard
: I don't see what "issued" adds.
40 mins
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To me, putting 'university' on its own doesn't really add anything - I would just think well you do it at a university, I wouldn't understand the state/university distinction. But I agree that 'university diploma' would also be fine if explained
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neutral |
Jennifer White
: has since been verified as a MMEF, see D box./well, yes, this is the course the candidate is taking
1 hr
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It seems MMEF is a specific DU in Mathematical Methods in Economics and Finance. A DU can be in any subject
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Michael Meskers
: In France, it is usually a one year conferral.
5 hrs
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agree |
Conor McAuley
15 hrs
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university diploma
Thank you |
neutral |
writeaway
: I think it's fairest for Asker to post at least one of the hits showing this is the correct translation
2 mins
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agree |
philgoddard
: If I understand correctly, it lasts only one year, so it's not a degree.
41 mins
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agree |
Libby Cohen
: I have a GDip (Graduate Diploma) from a Canadian university. As Phil mentioned, this is NOT a full degree, but IS at the grad level. It involves graduate-level studies, can be completed in one year, requires a Bachelor's Degree first.
1 hr
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agree |
Michael Meskers
: Agree with Phil's comment.
6 hrs
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agree |
Angelo Berbotto
: As an undergraduate (I had not finished my LLB), I went on exchange to Lyon and did one semester of Law as part of a Diploma in French Law, it was a specific qualification issued by the University. They gave me a "certificate" because I did only half.
9 hrs
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disagree |
Conor McAuley
: Literal translation, no explanation of the cultural context of the term, no references posted.
15 hrs
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agree |
Jennifer White
: This is what it is - simple.
1 day 19 hrs
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University Degree
neutral |
writeaway
: convincing explanation
38 mins
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Apologise terribly for the laconical response but it is all due to the fatigue. I perhaps assumed that it wouldn't need any further explanation.
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disagree |
Angelo Berbotto
: Nothing indicates this is a degree
8 hrs
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My four years Aristotle University's stydies in French Language and Literature plus Tranlation Department is officially named as University Degree, in both Greece and Europe at the very least. Thank you.
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disagree |
AllegroTrans
: Calling this a degree is simply wrong
2 days 21 hrs
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You might as well be right in many ways. Perhaps the term diploma is considered to be somehow underestimated within the Greek cultural & educational mentality of seeing things. In Greek the right is Ptychio which couldn't match with diploma by no means!
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One year Master's Degree
Yes, you could just say "University Degree/Diploma" as the text describes what it was but I kind of prefer my translation here to dispel any possible confusion from the start
disagree |
Angelo Berbotto
: Translating should not be an exercise in guessing-- nothing indicates that this is a Masters degree, sorry for being blunt.
52 mins
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I spoke about a jury and the subject and it's a diploma after one year. Do you know of any undergraduate university courses of one year??? If you can't understand the difference between guessing and concluding based on evidence, you are in the wrong job
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disagree |
Nikki Scott-Despaigne
: I have a couple of DUs. They are one year, (s/times two-year) courses with dissertation. They usually have a specific application of vocational objective. I have one in autism and one in an area of int. relations.//See my post + disc post.
11 hrs
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That's a vocational MASTERS on multiple websites.
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disagree |
AllegroTrans
: Yes, in France there are diploma courses of one year that are not Master's level
2 days 14 hrs
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university certificate
'Given the administrative counsel decision from the university, alongside the written work submitted from the student, a certificate can be endorsed with the subjects mentioned. Following a verbal assessment the student meets the requirements with demonstrated knowledge, aptitude and skill in the year 2018-19.'
neutral |
Nikki Scott-Despaigne
: diploma or certificate but never a degree. See my remarks to Safetex's post.
26 mins
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university diploma (post-graduate diploma)
This is the course Uni's online info about the DU in question. It does not appear to be available in French and I suspect they don't realise that it may be misleading in its title. Believe you me, if it were a master's course, it would say so. Masters degrees are national qualifications validated by the Ministère de l'éducation. Further, they are described as Master 1 ou Master 2 and so on. However, in the continuing education field, the DUs and DIUs are awarded by a uni (or two for a DIU) by unis who have been authorised to award them. They may require you to have a first degree, or even a higher level degree. That does not mean they qualify as a "degree".
For those of you who are familiar with the UK's descriptions, a master's degree in the UK is a post-graduate qualification. However, not all post-grad qualifications are degrees. This is the same here with the DU/DIUs in France.
A DU (or DIU, where 2 unis collaborate on a diploma) is specifically outside the usual LMD circuit. It will meet specific criteria, but is an "in-house" university diploma. They are usually part-time as they often have vocational objectives and are aimed at professionally qualified people. Some will have specific scientific objectives and others will have cultural aims. Most require a dissertation and many require an internship without which the DU will not be awarded. They are commonly taken by people wishing to further their career, through personal interest or from a choice that will support the career they are doing and to meet continuing education criteria.
Scroll down and read the "Et après?" section. It sets out various pathways open to students once they have passed this DU. Note that this particular DU's description suggests that the better students may access the fast-track route to a specific Master's and that it may facilitate getting a place onto the formal French-language master's course (in other words, the national masters course).
When I did my DU en Autisme et autres troubles précoces du développement at the Université de Tours, run by the Faculty of Medicine and the regional autism centre, I was planning a career change and about to embark upon a research masters in biology and neuroscience. At the time I was working as one-to-one support in the classroom with a child on the spectrum (as well as working as a translator and linguist). The course was every Thursday and Friday once a month. There were 15 of us and the group included doctors, social workers, educators, speech language therapists and psychologists. Recruitment of the students onto the course required a minimum level of bac+3, an equivalent to an undergraduate degree. Some require less, some require more and experience may be considered equivalent. Some DUs are "diplômants" and others are "certifiants". The point is that these qualifications are not degrees. To describe them as such is misleading.
https://formations.pantheonsorbonne.fr/fr/catalogue-des-form...
These sources should make things clearer:
Note the "cas particulier" here :
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diplôme_d'université_(France)
A brief description that is helpful:
https://formations.univ-lorraine.fr/fr/22-diplome-d-universi...
"In France, un diplôme universitaire (DU) ou inter-universitaire (DIU) est un diplôme délivré par une université française, un grand établissement ou un autre Établissement public à caractère scientifique, culturel et professionnel, ou plusieurs établissements conjointement, contrairement aux diplômes nationaux qui sont délivrés au nom du ministère. Les DU sont organisés par une seule université, tandis que les DIU associent plusieurs universités pour organiser la même formation (qui a souvent lieu dans les différentes villes)."
https://www.studyrama.com/formations/diplomes/licence/focus-...
https://www.doctorama.fr/fr/lexique/du.htm
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Note added at 1 day 1 hr (2022-01-18 15:13:08 GMT)
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Note that in courses outside the LMD framework (which are national diplomas in the sense that they are validated by the Ministry of HIgher Educatioetc), some state universities are authorised to offer DUs/DIUs as part of their continuing education programmes. Some also offer other courses/diplomas that will be described as "Magistères". These do not fall within the state LMD framework and from a number of forums I have seen, many students from overseas, a minority overall, but nevertheless a significant number of students, will sign up for such courses believing them to be a Master's course. Some are excellent and highly selective. They enable unis to offer something a little more innovative and free of the standard national degree requirements.
It's extremely important in translations relating to qualifications that a translator does not give the impression that a particular qualification matches a particular level, even if some actually DUs do come close, or even beyond. Just because a DU recruits its candidates at a Bac+3 level does not mean that the DU suddenly qualifies as a "master's" equivalent. Dito a bac+2 DU, which does not become a "licence". Hey, some require a bac+5 or more, which does not make them a degree course either. It's all about equivalences and a DU is not a degree. And a DU which describes itself as a "mastère" or a "magistère" is playing on words and complicating the already complicated life of a translator trying to do a good job; one of which, I hasten to add, is not standing in the shoes of an equivalence commission, whether within the same country or overseas.
There have been a couple of cases where students being unsuccessful in getting onto a selective (national) masters degree course in one of France's state universities having managed to get onto a Master's course offered by a foreign public university with a branch in France. It came to light as being significant when the rules on selective entry onto Masters' courses changed in France. Example: A number of students having been unsuccessful in their applications onto a psychology master's course in France, had their applications accepted onto the Italian uni's master's course in Paris. The students having obtained their Italian Master's in psychology then applied to the national equivalence commission. Every single application was rejected. The Master's was valid in Italy, but it did not meet French requirements. The standard per se was fine but there are specific rules and regulations about the internships which did not match up at all. The Italian Master's would never have opened the way to qualification in France. The course having been taught in French would make it complicated for those who did not speak Italian to have the course validated as part of the pathway to obtaining a qualification in Italy either, again, I believe for questions of the internship. The angry and out-of-pocket parents sought legal advice. It went nowhere. The small print of the material presented by the uni covered them amply. Students and families had lost time and money. Not all of the students were from wealthy families. Some had taken out a loan and got into real difficulty taking a long term view, or so they thought, for something that could never be.
The takeaway is that the title of the diploma is important. An officially approved (state approved) licence/master/doctorat will have the correct name. If it has something else, then it is something else.
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Angelo Berbotto
: not necessarily post-graduate diploma unless it states so. It can be a diploma that is BAC +2 so before a person gets a degree see here https://www.letudiant.fr/etudes/fac/les-diplomes-universitai...
23 mins
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Indeed. It's a suggestion for this particular DU as it recruits candidates from a Bac+3 minimum or equivalent.
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Conor McAuley
: According to a very good source, not necessarily post-graduate. However, this one is indeed a post-grad course, according to a colleague's research.
1 hr
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Which is why I explain all that stuff about recruitment of candidates and that it is an alternative for cases such as the one in point. ;-)
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Reference comments
Glossary entry
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Note added at 15 hrs (2022-01-18 04:26:15 GMT)
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I think the way to go here technically is to put in "Diplôme d'Université" in italics and "(university-specific degree)" after.
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Note added at 15 hrs (2022-01-18 04:30:17 GMT)
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A kind of "opposite" to national diplomas, see https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diplôme_national_en_France
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Note added at 15 hrs (2022-01-18 04:38:08 GMT)
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Sorry, not a degree as above, a diploma.
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Note added at 22 hrs (2022-01-18 11:45:41 GMT)
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Thinking back to my education as a translator, this term would be classified as "untranslatable", so you do the italics and gloss thing.
It's a classic translation problem -- the literal translation just doesn't work, or at least it doesn't provide the full context.
Ok, it's not maybe not quite Translation 101, but it's very basic.
Thank you |
agree |
philgoddard
40 mins
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Thanks Phil!
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agree |
Yolanda Broad
3 hrs
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Thanks Yolanda!
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Jennifer White
: University-specific diploma? Here? As a title?/ It's a certificate. You need a heading, not an explanation. Seems clear enough to me./Have never, ever, seen this as a heading on this type of certificate./ hers is an explanation, not a proper heading.
9 hrs
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See note. / The French in italics plus a gloss is as classic as translation method gets. You can't just ignore cultural context. The State accreditation framework is different in the UK and in other Anglosphere countries. / See Eloise's answer, 4 agrees.
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Nikki Scott-Despaigne
: Sorry, this is not a degree at all. "Degrees" wld be a mistranslation as that would imply at least three years of full-time study and is a national qual. DUs are awarded by a single uni, or two in the case of a DIU.
20 hrs
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"("Note added at 15 hrs (2022-01-18 04:38:08 GMT) Sorry, not a degree as above, a diploma."
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neutral |
AllegroTrans
: university-specific degree? peculiar wording
5 days
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Discussion
Of course, throw this term at someone who has it as part of a 50,000-word translation, and they're not necessarily going to devote the requisite time to it.
Looking back through comments, I find "NOT a full degree", which is the most pertinent point to get across in a translation (as opposed to accreditation issues as I stated previously, which are also important, however), so the gloss in this case would refer to the normal length of the course in years.
The assumption being that diplomas issued by universities are mainly for degrees.
(I say "normal" because someone I know did a two-year course in one year, but she is a prodigy.)
Also, when you've got "Université...Sorbonne" above the term in the text, stating "University" again is completely redundant.
"University Diploma" without a gloss is a bit like saying "wet water"!
You are right, in the sense that a recruiter looking at this diploma presumably won't be too interested in what authority or authorities have accredited it, just in what the person learned while on the course.
(I suppose, in this view, it would be up to the person to explain, in a cover letter or on his/her CV, how long the course lasted and the other main details, at least.)
The opposite side of the argument is right in that this is indeed a special category of degree. But the details are so labyrinthine that a short gloss can only get one small (but important) detail across.
So, as happens more often than you would think, it's a question of personal taste: there's more than one way to cook a fish!
It is even possible to be a just a tiny bit creative and to use elements of both approaches!
For my DU, there was a viva voce (soutenance) before a panel (jury).
Same thing for my degrees in bio/neuro and the M1 and M2 in psychology.
Degrees can be academic, research, vocational or mixed. A vocational degree is still a national qualification. A vocational DU is not a national qualification.
But there is a jury and the very subject is not a run of the mill University Degree. Someone else has researched and said this is SECOND cycle.Do you have any idea what that means???
Obviously context is completely beyond you. Sorry to be so blunt too!!!
The first year of graduate studies, "Mathematical Methods in Economics and Finance" (MMEF), is a University Diploma ("Diplôme d'Université" - DU). MMEF is an international program entirely taught in English that lasts one academic year and awards between 60 and 70 educational credits, including either a research project or an internship.
The University Diploma MMEF corresponds to the first-year level of second cycle qualifications according to the European Credit Transfer and Accumulation System (ECTS) of the European Higher Education Area (EHEA) - Bologna Process.