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CIE (1976) L*a*b* tri-stimulus data ASTM designation of ....
night-farmers
Sep 28, 2014 13:45
9 yrs ago
1 viewer *
English term

Jesuit

English Art/Literary Religion christian astrology 1647
W. Lilly on the planet Saturn.


QUALITY OF MEN. In generall he signifieth Husbandmen, Clowns, Beggars, Day-labourers, Old-men, Fathers, Grand-fathers, Monks, Jesuits, Sectarists.


Quite easy it seems, but I wonder why is he differentiating the Jesuits from other monks? Were they seen more like "sectarists" than as of regular monks?
Responses
4 +3 Jesuit
5 Not quite the other monks, but not sectarists either
4 akin to a military order
4 Jesuitas
Change log

Sep 28, 2014 14:25: writeaway changed "Field (specific)" from "Poetry & Literature" to "Religion"

Discussion

Charles Davis Sep 29, 2014:
Sectarists By this term Lilly almost certainly means Protestant dissenters or nonconformists (such as those who sailed to America on the Mayflower). Monks and Jesuits are of course Catholics, specifically the two types of Catholics most alien to the Protestant Church of England (remember that Jesuits are priests, not monks). So from the perspective of an Anglican it is like saying heretics of various kinds. Note that he doesn't mention priests in this list.
Charles Davis Sep 29, 2014:
The other side of the coin... But I stress that I am highlighting the reputation of Jesuits among their enemies, including (probably) people like Lilly and his readers. Against that, their value to the Church for over two centuries was incalculable. The tradition of intellectual rigour is unquestionable; just think of Edmund Campion, for example: an intellectual giant. Their contribution to education in Catholic countries was unparalleled. And the Society was, from its inception, absolutely committed to extending and revitalising the Catholic faith, with phenomenal energy and courage, based on a culture of self-discipline exemplified by Ignatius's famous "spiritual exercises". Jesuits were the prime agents of the Counter-Reformation, engaged in missionary work all over the world, from Japan to the remotest parts of Latin America (remember the film The Mission). And even within Spain, for example, Jesuits went everywhere, including remote abandoned corners of the country where priests never ventured (sixteenth-century Jesuit letters are fascinating in this respect).
Charles Davis Sep 28, 2014:
(Continued) They were also strongly associated with intellectual dishonesty and cunning. Jesuit casuistry, in origin a respectable enough dialectical method, came to be regarded as unprincipled sophistry, the technique of finding a clever argument to justify anything that is expedient. Even today the word “jesuitic” or “jesuitical” carries this connotation:

“jesuitic
1. (informal, offensive) subtle and equivocating
2. (religion) relating to the Jesuit order”
http://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/jesuitic...

So I think we can be fairly sure that when Lilly refers to Jesuits he has this kind of thing in mind.
Charles Davis Sep 28, 2014:
Connotations of the Jesuits From early on (i.e., in the sixteenth century), Jesuits (who were emphatically not monks) acquired a sinister reputation. They gained enormous influence in Catholic countries, particularly in education, and were seen as a threat by other organisations in the Church, especially the Dominicans, whose hitherto dominant intellectual position they threatened and soon eclipsed. They were also associated with political chicanery and increasingly regarded as a threat by the secular authorities, to the point that they were expelled from Spain, Portugal and France (and their empires) in 1767 and actually suppressed altogether by Pope Clement XIV in 1773, though of course they survived and still exist. Nowadays, ironically, they are seen as the most liberal wing of the Church, and their former sinister reputation has been taken over by Opus Dei (as readers of Dan Brown will recognise).

Lilly was a protestant with puritan sympathies. In protestant England, Jesuits were synonymous with the most sinister, fanatical and threatening aspects of Catholicism. During the reign of Elizabeth, waves of English Jesuits, trained at colleges in Europe, had been implicated in plots against the Crown.
Adela Porumbel (asker) Sep 28, 2014:
Thank you, everyone! No need to argue :) I appreciate your efforts!
DLyons Sep 28, 2014:
@Łukasz Posposity is unbecoming. Obrażanie kogoś jest niestosowne!
Łukasz Gos-Furmankiewicz Sep 28, 2014:
You guys are guessing. It's pretty obvious what a Jesuit is, and it isn't difficult to just google the wikipedia entry and read. The loose, random usage of not even particularly specialized clerical terminology in this discussion is frightening (sort of like calling a parish priest 'Your Eminence'). Folk science at its best. Then one wonders why translators find it so difficult to get some respect and avoid being corrected by just about anybody involved.
Phoenix III Sep 28, 2014:
@ Asker You said so yourself. Monks were humble, quiet and went about their own business. Jesuits were powerful, intimidating, politically connected and had Rome in their pocket. I am generalizing but so is your text. Not all monks were sweet and certainly the Jesuits did not start that way but that's the road they took. This is why I think they are being mentioned separately. Monks were the peons and Jesuits were the white collar bosses... so to speak. This is my take on it.
DLyons Sep 28, 2014:
Who's guessing? No need to be so offensive.
Łukasz Gos-Furmankiewicz Sep 28, 2014:
Just read instead of guessing anyway.
Adela Porumbel (asker) Sep 28, 2014:
I wondered why is he differentiating the Jesuits from other monks, maybe because they can also be priests? Other than that I don't have troubles translating the term. Thank you all.
Carol Gullidge Sep 28, 2014:
Jesuits were a Catholic male order: a religious male order founded by St. Ignatius of Loyola. Mentioned a lot by James Joyce (amongst others). They seemed to be quite fierce as priests end teachers but had no military connections, afaik.
Łukasz Gos-Furmankiewicz Sep 28, 2014:
Please, guys, stop making things up.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Society_of_Jesus
DLyons Sep 28, 2014:
Jesuits weren't monks. They were known as the Pope's commandos/stormtroopers etc.

http://books.google.ie/books?id=ECp8BwJaYuAC&pg=PA213

Nobody is saying they were soldiers!

And Łukasz, read your own link before criticizing!
writeaway Sep 28, 2014:
Suggest looking it up. There should be lots of helpful info available on the www, even in Romanian,

Responses

+3
2 hrs
Selected

Jesuit

(also sometimes known as Soldiers of Christ) have always been considered differently from other monks and priests. They are considerd to be more intellectual for one thing and study theology a much longer time so they are at least 30 before becoming ordained.

As Carol mentioned in Disc. James Joyce mentions them quite a bit as he went to two schools Belvedere and Clongowes Woods run by Jesuits which he considered much better than going to schools run by Christian Brothers.

http://cas.umt.edu/english/joyce/notes/010008jesuit.htm

http://www.economist.com/blogs/newsbook/2013/03/economist-ex...

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Note added at 2 hrs (2014-09-28 16:36:35 GMT)
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in the first link you notice "jesuit " can also be used as an adjective =intellectual

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Note added at 2 hrs (2014-09-28 16:40:50 GMT)
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intellectual rigour is really the hallmark of Jesuits. Certainly not considered in the same way as "ordinary" priest or monks

see here

http://www.slu.edu/x844.xml

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Note added at 2 hrs (2014-09-28 16:42:04 GMT)
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But I think you don't need to explain. Just keep the word "Jesuit" (if you can)

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Note added at 19 hrs (2014-09-29 09:09:53 GMT)
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Just thought I'd mention that since this is about Saturn I'd add some info on Saturnian types and influences...

Intellectual, serious, austere and disciplined would be key words for this type of personality or influence...

http://personalitypredictors.com/saturnian

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/astrology_saturn.html

In symbolic astrology Saturn is the expression of denial, ....may be the voice of authority or the 'jobs worth' - someone who follows the rules of their job without allowing for mitigating factors. If Saturn lacks dignity it can indicate the lower regions of society: foolish people, down and outs, scavengers, beggars and employees who act as servants or menial staff to others. If Saturn has dignity it can indicate a position of grave responsibility, but the need to endure an element of strain or unpleasantness is retained - managers in highly responsible roles who can take little time to relax from their duties, prison workers or those who must keep discipline and order where it is not willingly given, such as school teachers, or members of the police force.

Monks are naturally signified by Saturn, as are religious orders based upon observing discipline, or enduring periods of isolation and personal limitation or restriction. Saturn similarly governs all those whose work or lifestyle calls for isolation from society, such as hermits, dedicated scholars or people who work or live in secluded outposts.

In a chart cast at night, Saturn is said to signify the father. Grand fathers, and old men particularly fall under its influence.
Note from asker:
No, I don't need to explain, thanks anyway for clarification.
Peer comment(s):
agree Carol Gullidge
37 mins
Many thanks Carol
agree AllegroTrans : Yes, intellectual rigour etc, but not militarism despite the "soldiers of Christ" tag
3 hrs
Thanks. No, I'm not suggesting militarism. The "soldier" tag came from the fact their founder was an ex-soldier.
agree Jean-Claude Gouin
8 hrs
Many thanks:-)
Something went wrong...
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "thanks to everyone"
11 mins

akin to a military order

This may be what you mean by "sectarist".
I think the following from the New Advent Catholic encyclopedia is useful.

"His early plan was rather the conversion of Mohammedans, an idea which, a few decades after the final triumph of the Christians over the Moors in Spain, must have strongly appealed to the chivalrous Spaniards.

The name "Societas Jesu" had been born by a military order approved and recommended by Pius II in 1450, the purpose of which was to fight against the Turks and aid in spreading the Christian faith. The early Jesuits were sent by Ignatius first to pagan lands"
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14081a.htm
Peer comment(s):
neutral AllegroTrans : Partly true, but this is not an all-embracing distinction; what about their intellectual achievements?
7 hrs
Something went wrong...
7 mins

Jesuitas

They were sectarians, yes. Fully organized to the point of being "Company of Jesuits" they were not only the elite of religious orders but composed of the elite sons of society.

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Note added at 20 mins (2014-09-28 14:05:36 GMT)
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I should not have translated the term but my explanation is valid. They were and to a certain extent remain quite elitist.
Note from asker:
Thank you, the comment in the discussion thread was more clarifying.
Peer comment(s):
neutral DLyons : Not English.
5 mins
neutral AllegroTrans : and not an all-embracing description in any case; "Company of Jesuits" is wrong
6 hrs
Something went wrong...
1 hr

Not quite the other monks, but not sectarists either

Jesuits are not quite like "the other monks" indeed. One of the differences stands in the fact they take four vows, not three. The fourth one being complete obedience to the Pope.

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Note added at 4 hrs (2014-09-28 18:25:42 GMT)
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You're welcome. Oh and also, another interesting point about Jesuits : the current Pope is one of them. So, surely, that must mean they're pretty cool people ;-)
Note from asker:
Thank you, you made a valid point in differentiating them with the four vows, I have forgotten about.
Something went wrong...
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