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Μητροπολιτικός Πόλος Ελληνικού - Αγίου Κοσμά
σύμπραξη εταιρειών
Oct 27, 2012 09:53
11 yrs ago
1 viewer *
Greek term

απεμπλουτισμένες

Greek to English Social Sciences Social Science, Sociology, Ethics, etc. social psychology
Τοποθετούμε τη λέξη "κοινωνία" σε εισαγωγικά για να δείξουμε ότι πολλές φορές απουσιάζει παντελώς από κάποιους ορισμούς και αντι-καθίσταται από κάποιες περιοριστικές και απεμπλουτισμένες έννοιες, όπως «κοινωνικό σύνολο», «άλλα άτομα» κτλ.

The literal translation of the term ("depleted") does not seem appropriate here. Any suggestions?
Proposed translations (English)
5 +4 depleted
3 +4 abstract notions deprived of meaning
3 +1 impoverished
4 vague
3 innocuous

Discussion

Andras Mohay (X) Oct 28, 2012:
Κατάλαβα, Peter, την άποψή σου και ευχαριστώ για τη διευκρίνιση. Ο χαρακτηρισμός του "depleted" ως "literal translation" και το "does not **seem** appropriate" μού έδιναν την εντύπωση ότι πρόκειται για ατομική απορία του μεταφραστή και όχι για απαιτήσεις ενότητας του ύφους ή ιδιοτροπίες του πελάτη. Μπορεί να έκανα λάθος.
Peter Close Oct 28, 2012:
With regard to Nick Lingris's discussion entry of 21:32 yesterday evening, I agree entirely and would go on to say that I think that this is the most positive suggestion that has been made so far.
Peter Close Oct 28, 2012:
(…….Continuation of previous entry). Theodoros would then have chosen the word or phrase that he felt most comfortable with and his translation would have retained its consistency. Yet instead of providing alternative words, which was what Theodoros had asked us to do, you were recommending that he use the word that he had said that he did not want to use, in the first place, and appear to be disparaging our intelligence or knowledge by implying that you were the only person who knew that the word “depleted” could have been used in that particular case.
Peter Close Oct 28, 2012:
Andras, Well done! But you are missing the point. I had told you from the outset that I had agreed that "depleted" could be used in such a context, and Theodoros may well have been aware of this fact too, but he had stated when he had asked his question that he was uncomfortable about using the word and was therefore asking for alternative words that he could use instead. For him to have felt uncomfortable about using the word "depleted", it probably follows that if he had used it he would have strayed from his normal style and the style in which the remainder of the translation was being written and that his use of the word would have caused his translation to lack consistency. As I am sure you are aware, many clients want texts to be translated by one and the same translator. They want this so that the style of the translation remains consistent throughout the whole text. The rest of us had simply been complying with Theodoros's request to suggest alternative words or phrases that he could use instead of the word "depleted" (although all of us were probably aware that Theodoros could have used the word “depleted” in that context, if he had wanted to). (To be continued....)
Andras Mohay (X) Oct 27, 2012:
Peter, δεν είναι η ουρά που κουνάει τον σκύλο και δεν είναι το λεξικό που καθορίζει τη χρήση: το λεξικό (ο λεξικογράφος) τρέχει από πίσω.

Τα τελευταία 50 χρόνια έχω διαβάσει δεκάδες χιλιάδες σελίδες για γλωσσολογία, θεωρία της λογοτεχνίας, ιστορία, ανθρωπολογία και συνάντησα συχνά όρους όπως semantic/aesthetic/moral depletion, depletion of meaning/significance/notion κά. μακριά από μεταλλουργίες, ορυκτολογίες κ.λπ., κ.λπ.

Νά μερικά παραδείγματα 50 περίπου ετών:

[1]
Jesperson (1961:154-57) maintains that the introduction of FOR was in response to a semantic depletion of prepositional to, which had lost its directional ...
[2]
Hi- I used to read a lot of anthropology and somewhere picked up a term that **was popular in that field for a while** called "semantic depletion." In linguistic terms it means that a word loses concrete and highly specific or rich meaning and becomes more abstract
[3]
Forbes, Kathleen (1968) Some examples of depletion of meaning in Burmese.
Nick Lingris Oct 27, 2012:
As a matter of fact, I would recommend the use of "depleted term", not "notion". I think the Greek would be more accurate with "όρους" in the place of "έννοιες".
Here's a good example from a blog:
urban contemporary or UC. a more accurate replacement for the misused, polemically (and politically) depleted term "ghetto".

It is a rare term in Greek and a rare one in English. I believe the author has found it safe to use the translation of the scientific term. One could see the terms "exhausted" and "αποδυναμωμένες" used in its place.
Peter Close Oct 27, 2012:
Andreas, I am sorry, but how can you be so sure that the term "depletion of meaning" has been used for decades? Since you have only been translating yourself for about ten years, it would seem that you have not been on this planet many decades yourself, so how can you be sure that the term was used when you were young or before you were born? And if it has been used for decades, why don't more dictionaries include your application of the word in their descriptions?
Andras Mohay (X) Oct 27, 2012:
Το γλωσσικό αισθητήριο του φυσικού ομιλητή δεν είναι κάτι το εξυπαρχής δεδομένο. Ένα περίτεχνο και διανοουμενίστικο κείμενο (όπως το εν προκειμένω) μπορεί να ξενίζει τους κοινούς θνητούς, έστω και μητροδίδακτους.
Πόσοι θα εγκρίνουν το "αφυδατωμένη έννοια". Και ιδού:
Η περιβαλλοντική διαχείριση είναι ίσως μια πεζή, στεγνή έως και αφυδατωμένη έννοια όταν μιλάμε για το περιβάλλον, η προσέγγιση του οποίου ...
Ακόμη κι αν μιλήσουμε για την τυπική και αφυδατωμένη έννοια της Δημοκρατίας που διαμορφώνεται γύρω από τις κοινοβουλευτικές διαδικασίες, ...
Η ίδια η σκέψη είναι σύμβολο. Μόλις χάσει τον συμβολισμό της, από πολυνόητη ιδέα εκπίπτει σε μονοσήμαντη αφυδατωμένη έννοια. Πολυνόητες και συμβολικές ...

Πρόκειται για θέμα αναγνωστικής εμπειρίας/επάρκειας. Ό,τι ενοχλεί τον έναν, μπορεί να ακούγεται οικείο για τον άλλον.

Εξάλλου το deplete δεν είναι νεολογία: "depletion of meaning" κά. λέγονται δεκαετίες τώρα.
Peter Close Oct 27, 2012:
Eleni, Take the example we worked on yesterday, "Μητροπολιτικός Πόλος Ελληνικού - Αγίου Κοσμά". If I had translated those words too similarly to the Greek words, my translation would not have described what this project will include. I think that a good translator should attach more importance to conveying the intended meaning of the original text than to the translations of individual words. I will give you an example. Translate this text: "Για τα προβλήματα που δημιουργούνται στον τόπο μας, στην Ευρώπη, σε όλο τον κόσμο, τα οποία επιβεβαιώνουν την αρχή των συγκοινωνούντων δοχείων μέσα σε ένα πρωτοφανές περιβάλλον αβεβαιότητας, ένα είναι βέβαιο: ότι δεν υπάρχουν μαγικές συνταγές για λύσεις παρά μόνο προσπάθεια." Try translating that without allowing yourself flexibility!
Eleni Bouchli Oct 27, 2012:
Peter you are a native speaker of English so it's interesting to hear your opinion. I would like to ask you all, how much freedom do you think a translator has to use words in their figurative meaning in such texts. This is food for thought.
Peter Close Oct 27, 2012:
With the greatest respect to Andras Mohay and Nick Lingris and although I agree that the word “depleted” could be used in this context, I agree with Ellen Kraus in that its use in such contexts is a neologism or new meaning for an existing word that should be used with caution outside the fields of mineralogy, metallurgy and natural resources . The hightech field routinely creates neologisms, especially new meanings. Years ago, there was no doubt that a "mouse" referred only to a furry, little rodent. I agree with Ellen Kraus and Theodoros that I would be uncomfortable about using the word “depleted” for his translation and that I, too, would probably use an alternative word instead. By saying this though, I am not trying to “deplete” the value of Andras’s proposal, but am merely expressing an opinion.
Andras Mohay (X) Oct 27, 2012:
Ellen, νομίζω ότι ο όρος "depleted notion" ("έννοια κενή περιεχομένου, απογυμνωμένη") προϋπήρχε στα Αγγλικά του απεμπλουτισμού του ουρανίου και ίσα-ίσα είναι επιβεβλημένη η χρήση του όρου αυτού, ουράνιο-ξεουράνιο, κι ας πάει το μυαλό μας όπου θέλει, στην απουσία νοήματος ή στην καλοήθεια ή μη του ουρανίου.
Ellen Kraus Oct 27, 2012:
not all types of depleted uranium are innocuous. It depends on its density. the occurence of the term απεμπλουτισμένος in connection with a word other than uranium is a newly coined term meaning ότι η έννοια στερείται καθέ νοημα. I would thus refrain from copying the adjective or participle used in connection with uranium and periphrase the term.

Proposed translations

+4
2 hrs
Selected

depleted

Πρόκειται μάλλον για λάθος μεταφορά εις τα καθ' ημάς (υμάς) του όρου depleted ή για μια τολμηρή μεταφορά της πυρηνικής εποχής μας:

1η σημασία: "αποδυναμωμένος" (ουράνιο)
2η σημασία: "κενός περιεχομένου"

Ετοιμάζει «πολιτικές κινήσεις», συμμετέχει σε «διεργασίες» και ομνύει στις «μεταρρυθμίσεις», μια ***έννοια κενή περιεχομένου***, η οποία γεμίζει από ...

Στα Αγγλικά:

The Regional Approach to Borders and its Consequences An Approach Based on a Depleted Notion of Human Rights Generally speaking, the migration ...
The idea of urbanity is a depleted notion in the Norwegian context, diluted by socialistic ideals. An endless cycle of building and erasing (urbanity) leaves cities ...
“Freedom's Just Another Word” depicts the depleted notion of freedom in our American society, in light of the presidential election. A mere 51 ...
... their states; whereas congress today is paid by, and has the interests of the federal government, rather than the depleted notion of the state they come from.

Όποια περίπτωση και να ισχύει, η σωστή απόδοση είναι "depleted"

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 5 hrs (2012-10-27 15:10:45 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

depleted notion: 165/37
deplete the notion: 201/23
depleting zhe notion: 10
Peer comment(s):
agree Nick Lingris
2 hrs
Ευχαριστώ, Νίκο. Δεν ξέρω, πάντως αν πρόκειται για λεκτικό παιχνίδι της μετα-το-ουράνιο εποχής ή για απλή παρερμηνεία.
agree Eleni Bouchli : Λοιπόν ο firefox μου δίνει 4 αποτελέσματα και ο Chrome 165! Συμπέρασμα, για ακόμη μια φορά αποδεικνύεται καλύτερος ο Chrome! Λοιπόν βάζω agree, για να πείσουμε τον Theodoros να λάβει ξανά υπόψη του ένα όρο που είχε αρχικά απορρίψει!
2 hrs
Περίεργο! Δεν χρησιμοποίησα ποτέ Firefox και έχει ενδιαφέρον η πληροφορία που δίνεις.
neutral Peter Close : Νόμισα ότι ο Θεόδωρος είπε ότι δεν ήθελε να χρησιμοποιήσει την λέξη “depleted” παρόλο που θα μπορούσε να χρησιμοποιηθεί σ’ αυτή τη περίπτωση, και ζήτησε άλλες συνώνυμες λέξεις να χρησιμοποιήσει αντί από τη λέξη “depleted”.
3 hrs
agree Ivi Rocou
19 hrs
Ευχαριστώ
agree Nadia-Anastasia Fahmi
2 days 19 hrs
Something went wrong...
2 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Ευχαριστω ολους οσους συνεισεφεραν με προτασεις. Τελικα μετα απο τη συζητηση που εγινε εδω και με λιγο παραπανω ερευνα, θα κρατησω τον ορο depleted, αφου υπαρχουν διαφορα κειμενα που τον χρησιμοποιουν με αυτη την εννοια. Παντως Andras, δεν προκειται για παρερμηνεια, αφου η χρηση του στα Ελληνικα ειναι πολυ ευστοχη: Ο ορος "κοινωνια" ειναι πλουσιος (περιεκτικος, ευρυς, βαθυς) και στους νεους ορισμους αντικαθισταται με τους λιγοτερο πλουσιους ορους οπως "κοινωνικο συνολο", κτλ. Για αυτο το λογο δεν προτιμησα τους ορους vague, innocuous, deprived of meaning, αφου δεν αποδιδουν σωστα αυτη τη διαφορα "πλουτου". Το impoverished ειναι επισης καλη επιλογη."
+4
7 mins

abstract notions deprived of meaning

Πάντα δεν ξέρουμε τι ακριβώς θέλει να πει ο ποιητής αλλά ορίστε μια άποψη.
Peer comment(s):
agree D. Harvatis : Ωραίο το "deprived of meaning", ίσως και "deeper meaning". / Ή και "devoid of meaning".
49 mins
ωραίο και το devoid! thanks!
agree Constantine Kourakis
1 hr
thanks!
agree Ellen Kraus
5 hrs
Thanks Ellen. You have a point. As always more than one alternatives are correct. It is on the asker to decide.
agree Peter Close : Of all answers other than my own, I think that this is the best so far.
6 hrs
Oh Peter! Thanks!
Something went wrong...
57 mins

innocuous

Το έχω ακούσει και με αυτή την έννοια.
Something went wrong...
+1
1 hr

impoverished

in order to stay closer to the source text
Peer comment(s):
agree J A Lawrence
3 days 4 hrs
Thank you J.
Something went wrong...
2 hrs

vague

In the particular context, I would say, "Vague", which means:
 
1. not clearly or explicitly stated or expressed: vague promises.

2. indefinite or indistinct in nature or character, as ideas or feelings: a vague premonition of disaster.

3. not clear or distinct to the sight or any other sense; perceptible or recognizable only in an indefinite way: vague shapes in the dark; vague murmurs behind a door.

4. not definitely established, determined, confirmed, or known; uncertain: a vague rumor; The date of his birth is vague.

5. (of persons) not clear or definite in thought, understanding, or expression: vague about his motives; a vague person.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2 hrs (2012-10-27 12:15:14 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Other possible solutions might be: fuzzy, hazy or ambiguous.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2 hrs (2012-10-27 12:24:19 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

fuzzy = not clearly thought out or expressed
hazy = vague, indefinite, uncertain
ambiguous = capable of being understood in two or more possible senses or ways
Reference:

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/vague

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/vague?s=t

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