Glossary entry (derived from question below)
French term or phrase:
Marchand de bien
English translation:
property dealer
Added to glossary by
:::::::::: (X)
Jun 6, 2009 06:41
14 yrs ago
24 viewers *
French term
Marchand de bien
French to English
Bus/Financial
Real Estate
Il s'agit de distinguer précisement dans la traduction entre trois termes; MARCHAND DE BIEN / PROMOTEUR & AGENT IMMOBILER
Proposed translations
(English)
| 4 +5 | property dealer |
Nikki Scott-Despaigne
|
| 4 +3 | estate agent |
swanda
|
| 4 | Real estate sales agents |
George C.
|
| 3 | Real estate broker plus others already mentioned, developer |
joehlindsay
|
Change log
Jun 6, 2009 06:53: Emanuela Galdelli changed "Term asked" from "MARCHAND DE BIEN" to "Marchand de bien"
Jun 6, 2009 10:28: Emanuela Galdelli changed "Level" from "Non-PRO" to "PRO"
Votes to reclassify question as PRO/non-PRO:
PRO (2): Stéphanie Soudais, Nikki Scott-Despaigne
Non-PRO (1): writeaway
When entering new questions, KudoZ askers are given an opportunity* to classify the difficulty of their questions as 'easy' or 'pro'. If you feel a question marked 'easy' should actually be marked 'pro', and if you have earned more than 20 KudoZ points, you can click the "Vote PRO" button to recommend that change.
How to tell the difference between "easy" and "pro" questions:
An easy question is one that any bilingual person would be able to answer correctly. (Or in the case of monolingual questions, an easy question is one that any native speaker of the language would be able to answer correctly.)
A pro question is anything else... in other words, any question that requires knowledge or skills that are specialized (even slightly).
Another way to think of the difficulty levels is this: an easy question is one that deals with everyday conversation. A pro question is anything else.
When deciding between easy and pro, err on the side of pro. Most questions will be pro.
* Note: non-member askers are not given the option of entering 'pro' questions; the only way for their questions to be classified as 'pro' is for a ProZ.com member or members to re-classify it.
Proposed translations
+5
2 hrs
Nikki Scott-Despaigne
Native in English
Psychologist, Court-certified legal
Native in: English 
Works in: French to English
Related KudoZ points
:
74
Selected
property dealer
In context, a "bien" means "property" as in buildings and/or land.
The term comes into its own when, for tax purposes, a private individual buys and sells more than a certain number of properties in a given period of time. If it happens from time to time, it would appear that although income is gained and declared, it shall not be considered as a regular source of income, and thus not as a professional activity. He shall not be considered as a “property dealer”.
Above a certain number of transactions, in terms of value and regularity, then the person if considered as being a “property dealer”, whether or not declared as a main activity.
This situation is to be distinguished from that where a person is registered as an “estate agent”, dealing in property and deriving income from that activity, declared as a professional of the property business.
http://jurisprudentes.org/bdd/faqs_rubrique.php?id_rubrique=...
Marchand de biens
Dernier ajout : samedi 7 février 2009.
Le statut et l’activité du marchand de biens
1. A partir de combien d’achat/vente on devient marchand de biens ?
2. Acheter pour rénover et vendre
3. FAQ : CONSTRUIRE UNE MAISON DANS UN ARBRE ?
4. FAQ : DELAI SUPPLEMENTAIRE POUR REVENDRE (NON)
5. FAQ : NOMBRE D’ASSOCIES DANS UNE SOCIETE MARCHAND DE BIENS
6. FAQ : OPERATIONS PORTANT SUR DES SOCIETES IMMOBILIERES
7. Il n’y a pas de diplôme de marchand de biens
8. Opération de marchand de biens par un agent de l’Etat
9. Requalification en marchand de biens
10. Séquestre notarial à la garantie de l’exécution de travaux
11. Une société pour acheter et vendre des biens immobiliers
http://jurisprudentes.org/bdd/faqs_article.php?id_article=45...
1/11. A partir de combien d’achat/vente on devient marchand de biens ?
mardi 30 janvier 2007.
Question. A partir de combien de biens vendu dans l’année est-on considéré comme marchand de bien par le fisc ??
Combien de biens puis-je vendre dans l’année sans être considéré comme marchand de biens ?
Réponse. Deux ventes, dès lors qu’il y a intention de revendre à l’origine.
Selon la jurisprudence du Conseil d’Etat, l’achat d’un immeuble pour le revendre en bloc ne caractérise pas l’habitude, mais l’achat d’un immeuble pour le diviser et le revendre par appartements fait qualifier le vendeur de marchand de biens (28 mai 1990, req. 16.695 ; 12 juin 1992, req. 67.758 et 67.759).
Autre exemple : a la qualité de marchand de biens le particulier qui achète et revend six appartements en deux ans (Conseil d’Etat, 14 octobre 1987, req. 51.781).
En pratique, la qualification n’est retenue qu’en cas de répétition d’opérations, sans qu’une règle absolue puisse être dégagée, mais la tendance actuelle de l’administration est de renforcer l’application du régime d’imposition y compris aux particuliers.
P. Redoutey, avocat
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2 hrs (2009-06-06 09:36:24 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
Sorry, a couple of modifs to my bla-bla at the begining :
Above a certain number of transactions, in terms of value and regularity, then the person IS considered as being a “property dealer”, whether or not declared as a main activity.
This situation is to be distinguished from that where a person is registered as an “estate agent”, dealing in property and deriving (regular) income from that activity, declared as a professional of the property business.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2 hrs (2009-06-06 09:38:03 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
So to conclude, for your three terms :
- marchand de biens : property dealer
- promoteur : promoter, property promoter
- agent immobilier : estate agent
The term comes into its own when, for tax purposes, a private individual buys and sells more than a certain number of properties in a given period of time. If it happens from time to time, it would appear that although income is gained and declared, it shall not be considered as a regular source of income, and thus not as a professional activity. He shall not be considered as a “property dealer”.
Above a certain number of transactions, in terms of value and regularity, then the person if considered as being a “property dealer”, whether or not declared as a main activity.
This situation is to be distinguished from that where a person is registered as an “estate agent”, dealing in property and deriving income from that activity, declared as a professional of the property business.
http://jurisprudentes.org/bdd/faqs_rubrique.php?id_rubrique=...
Marchand de biens
Dernier ajout : samedi 7 février 2009.
Le statut et l’activité du marchand de biens
1. A partir de combien d’achat/vente on devient marchand de biens ?
2. Acheter pour rénover et vendre
3. FAQ : CONSTRUIRE UNE MAISON DANS UN ARBRE ?
4. FAQ : DELAI SUPPLEMENTAIRE POUR REVENDRE (NON)
5. FAQ : NOMBRE D’ASSOCIES DANS UNE SOCIETE MARCHAND DE BIENS
6. FAQ : OPERATIONS PORTANT SUR DES SOCIETES IMMOBILIERES
7. Il n’y a pas de diplôme de marchand de biens
8. Opération de marchand de biens par un agent de l’Etat
9. Requalification en marchand de biens
10. Séquestre notarial à la garantie de l’exécution de travaux
11. Une société pour acheter et vendre des biens immobiliers
http://jurisprudentes.org/bdd/faqs_article.php?id_article=45...
1/11. A partir de combien d’achat/vente on devient marchand de biens ?
mardi 30 janvier 2007.
Question. A partir de combien de biens vendu dans l’année est-on considéré comme marchand de bien par le fisc ??
Combien de biens puis-je vendre dans l’année sans être considéré comme marchand de biens ?
Réponse. Deux ventes, dès lors qu’il y a intention de revendre à l’origine.
Selon la jurisprudence du Conseil d’Etat, l’achat d’un immeuble pour le revendre en bloc ne caractérise pas l’habitude, mais l’achat d’un immeuble pour le diviser et le revendre par appartements fait qualifier le vendeur de marchand de biens (28 mai 1990, req. 16.695 ; 12 juin 1992, req. 67.758 et 67.759).
Autre exemple : a la qualité de marchand de biens le particulier qui achète et revend six appartements en deux ans (Conseil d’Etat, 14 octobre 1987, req. 51.781).
En pratique, la qualification n’est retenue qu’en cas de répétition d’opérations, sans qu’une règle absolue puisse être dégagée, mais la tendance actuelle de l’administration est de renforcer l’application du régime d’imposition y compris aux particuliers.
P. Redoutey, avocat
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2 hrs (2009-06-06 09:36:24 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
Sorry, a couple of modifs to my bla-bla at the begining :
Above a certain number of transactions, in terms of value and regularity, then the person IS considered as being a “property dealer”, whether or not declared as a main activity.
This situation is to be distinguished from that where a person is registered as an “estate agent”, dealing in property and deriving (regular) income from that activity, declared as a professional of the property business.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2 hrs (2009-06-06 09:38:03 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
So to conclude, for your three terms :
- marchand de biens : property dealer
- promoteur : promoter, property promoter
- agent immobilier : estate agent
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
22 mins
Real estate sales agents
Ref. Bureau of labor
+3
1 hr
estate agent
*
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr (2009-06-06 07:49:50 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
promoteur: developer
agent immobilier: real estate agent
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr (2009-06-06 07:55:16 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estate_agent
www.rightmove.co.uk/estate-agents.html
www.haart.co.uk/
www.halifax.co.uk/estateagency/estateagencyhome.as
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr (2009-06-06 07:49:50 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
promoteur: developer
agent immobilier: real estate agent
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr (2009-06-06 07:55:16 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estate_agent
www.rightmove.co.uk/estate-agents.html
www.haart.co.uk/
www.halifax.co.uk/estateagency/estateagencyhome.as
Peer comment(s):
| agree |
Anthony Lines (X)
: Literally a seller of assets.
1 hr
|
|
thanks Anthony
|
|
| agree |
Sorina Grecu
: marchand de bien = estate agent (UK), real estate agent/realtor (US)(Collins)
3 hrs
|
|
thanks Sorina
|
|
| agree |
joehlindsay
: I think sorina grecu is exactly right: estate agent-UK, real estate agent/realtor-US, but it is also other things, see discussion.
7 hrs
|
|
thanks joehlindsay
|
9 hrs
Real estate broker plus others already mentioned, developer
This is for US usage only!
In the US there are real estate agents and real estate brokers. Real estate agents are licensed after taking courses and passing exams, but they must associate with a broker, who has more training and responsiblity, who holds their license and assumes some responsibilities.
In the US, agents are usually independent and work on commission despite the association with a broker, where in the UK sales persons (I don't remember what they are called in the UK) are (or were) sometimes salaried.
The most common translation of promoteur in the US is, I think 'real estate developer'.
My 'Dictionnaire Pratique des Mondes de la Finance et de la Bourse' translates 'marchand de biens' as 1. property dealer 2. property developer and dealer 3.pure trader in property.
From personal experience, qualifications for broker & agent vary from state to state in America, as well of course, from Britain.
If it's just general, and you don't have to consider official licensing and such technicalities, from my experience in Paris and America, I would say:
1.marchand de biens - real estate broker
2.promoteur- developer
3.marchand de biens/promoteur - (real estate) broker/developer
4.agent immobilier - real estate agent or realtor.
The term realtor is commonly used in the US but is proprietary to some real estate guild and they don't like people who don't belong to use it.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 13 hrs (2009-06-06 19:56:21 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
There are very few people in the US who would call themselves 'real estate dealers'. The IRS might dub them that, but the term is hardly one that one would use officially for himself or admit to.
In the US, if you are deemed a 'dealer' rather than an 'investor', that would mean that you pay regular income tax rates - much higher in America - for any money you made instead of capital gains tax. Some times the tax authorities will insist some one is a 'dealer' instead of an investor, but the investor or dealer will resist that classification.
Definition from reverso: marchand de biens , marchande de biens
nm/f estate agent (Grande-Bretagne) , real estate agent (USA) , realtor (USA)
An 'agent immobilier' is also definitely a real estate agent/realtor US, estate agent UK, and a promoteur is definitely a developer. In reality a marchand de biens/promoteur is probably best rendered by 'real estate broker/investor/developer', because most brokers do trade their own property as well as that of others, or real estate investor developer. So it is important to know if the 'dealer' has or employs some one with, a real estate broker's license.
The statement "A broker does not own the property sold" is incorrect and that is not the criterion for the definition of marchand des biens usually either. A broker may or may not own the property sold. It is very common for 'brokers' in the States to 'deal property' but they certainly aren't going to admit it unless they want their tax bill doubled.
So, we have a situation where there is some conflict.
The definition from the lexique de l'Immobilier is:La définition de Marchand de biens
En France, le mandat donné à un Marchand de biens immobiliers, le plus souvent agence ou notaire, est régi par la loi 70-9 du 2 janvier 1970, le décret du 20 juillet 1972 et l'arrêté du 15 septembre 1972. Il a pour mission de rapprocher un acheteur d'un vendeur. Par sa connaissance des prix du marché, des surfaces diponibles, de la nature de la demande et de l'offre il participe à la bonne réalisation de transactions. Son impartialité, son pragmatisme et sa compréhension des enjeux en font un acteur incontournable.
Wikipedia definition of real estate broker:
A real estate broker is a term in the United States and Canada which describes a party who acts as an intermediary between sellers and buyers of real estate (or real property as it is known elsewhere) and attempts to find sellers who wish to sell and buyers who wish to buy. In the United States, the relationship was originally established by reference to the English common law of agency with the broker having a fiduciary relationship with his clients.
Estate agent is the term used in the United Kingdom to describe a person or organization whose business is to market real estate on behalf of clients, but there are significant differences between the actions and liabilities of brokers and estate agents in each country. Beyond the US, other countries take markedly different approaches to the marketing and selling of real property.
So, a marchand de biens by this definition is clearly a real estate BROKER or agent for the US and estate agent for the UK. But the disclaimer about 'significant differences' is very well taken.
So all four of these answers are correct depending on context, and the details of exactly what the person in question does, and the 'disagree' is, I think, without merit because this is some one who "a pour mission de rapprocher un acheteur d'un vendeur", and whether or not the marchand des biens is the owner of the said property or not is not really relevant.
In the US there are real estate agents and real estate brokers. Real estate agents are licensed after taking courses and passing exams, but they must associate with a broker, who has more training and responsiblity, who holds their license and assumes some responsibilities.
In the US, agents are usually independent and work on commission despite the association with a broker, where in the UK sales persons (I don't remember what they are called in the UK) are (or were) sometimes salaried.
The most common translation of promoteur in the US is, I think 'real estate developer'.
My 'Dictionnaire Pratique des Mondes de la Finance et de la Bourse' translates 'marchand de biens' as 1. property dealer 2. property developer and dealer 3.pure trader in property.
From personal experience, qualifications for broker & agent vary from state to state in America, as well of course, from Britain.
If it's just general, and you don't have to consider official licensing and such technicalities, from my experience in Paris and America, I would say:
1.marchand de biens - real estate broker
2.promoteur- developer
3.marchand de biens/promoteur - (real estate) broker/developer
4.agent immobilier - real estate agent or realtor.
The term realtor is commonly used in the US but is proprietary to some real estate guild and they don't like people who don't belong to use it.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 13 hrs (2009-06-06 19:56:21 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
There are very few people in the US who would call themselves 'real estate dealers'. The IRS might dub them that, but the term is hardly one that one would use officially for himself or admit to.
In the US, if you are deemed a 'dealer' rather than an 'investor', that would mean that you pay regular income tax rates - much higher in America - for any money you made instead of capital gains tax. Some times the tax authorities will insist some one is a 'dealer' instead of an investor, but the investor or dealer will resist that classification.
Definition from reverso: marchand de biens , marchande de biens
nm/f estate agent (Grande-Bretagne) , real estate agent (USA) , realtor (USA)
An 'agent immobilier' is also definitely a real estate agent/realtor US, estate agent UK, and a promoteur is definitely a developer. In reality a marchand de biens/promoteur is probably best rendered by 'real estate broker/investor/developer', because most brokers do trade their own property as well as that of others, or real estate investor developer. So it is important to know if the 'dealer' has or employs some one with, a real estate broker's license.
The statement "A broker does not own the property sold" is incorrect and that is not the criterion for the definition of marchand des biens usually either. A broker may or may not own the property sold. It is very common for 'brokers' in the States to 'deal property' but they certainly aren't going to admit it unless they want their tax bill doubled.
So, we have a situation where there is some conflict.
The definition from the lexique de l'Immobilier is:La définition de Marchand de biens
En France, le mandat donné à un Marchand de biens immobiliers, le plus souvent agence ou notaire, est régi par la loi 70-9 du 2 janvier 1970, le décret du 20 juillet 1972 et l'arrêté du 15 septembre 1972. Il a pour mission de rapprocher un acheteur d'un vendeur. Par sa connaissance des prix du marché, des surfaces diponibles, de la nature de la demande et de l'offre il participe à la bonne réalisation de transactions. Son impartialité, son pragmatisme et sa compréhension des enjeux en font un acteur incontournable.
Wikipedia definition of real estate broker:
A real estate broker is a term in the United States and Canada which describes a party who acts as an intermediary between sellers and buyers of real estate (or real property as it is known elsewhere) and attempts to find sellers who wish to sell and buyers who wish to buy. In the United States, the relationship was originally established by reference to the English common law of agency with the broker having a fiduciary relationship with his clients.
Estate agent is the term used in the United Kingdom to describe a person or organization whose business is to market real estate on behalf of clients, but there are significant differences between the actions and liabilities of brokers and estate agents in each country. Beyond the US, other countries take markedly different approaches to the marketing and selling of real property.
So, a marchand de biens by this definition is clearly a real estate BROKER or agent for the US and estate agent for the UK. But the disclaimer about 'significant differences' is very well taken.
So all four of these answers are correct depending on context, and the details of exactly what the person in question does, and the 'disagree' is, I think, without merit because this is some one who "a pour mission de rapprocher un acheteur d'un vendeur", and whether or not the marchand des biens is the owner of the said property or not is not really relevant.
Peer comment(s):
| neutral |
rkillings
: OK, then, "broker" as short for broker-dealer, who can either broker a transaction between other parties or deal for his own account or both. Usage wins against the dictionary definition, q.v.
2 hrs
|
|
I don't think so. See discussion.
|
Something went wrong...