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dont
soyage
Dec 4, 2008 21:21
15 yrs ago
French term

maturation septentrionale

French to English Marketing Wine / Oenology / Viticulture
From a description of the ideal conditions of the 2002 champagne harvest:

annee uniformement chaude, sans exces soleil et de chaleur, mais avec une douceur tres marquee en hiver permettant un demarrage precoce de la vegetation: leger deficit de pluies (environ 20%) pendant toute la duree du cycle vegetatif, mais sans stress pour la vigne, des nuits fraiches et un vent frais et sec de nord-est au mois de septembre permettant **une maturation tres septentrionale**, lente et progressive avec, au final, une belle concentration de sucre et de saveurs.

Perhaps I am overtired, but this seems so odd to me. Septentrionale means northern - how can the ripening of grapes be northern? Unless they mean the cool weather conditions in September made it seem more northernly?
Your thoughts are greatly appreciated.
Proposed translations (English)
3 +4 ripening typical of the North
5 ripening process reaching exceptionally far north
3 late term ripening
3 -1 northern ripening
3 -1 ...to ripen in typical northern climate fashion...
References
northern climate
Northern

Discussion

Francis Marche Dec 6, 2008:
Don't forget to swivel it long enough though.. Ok guys, you obviously are all seasoned winemakers and I won't pursue it any further, but just remember that if you associate "une belle concentration de sucre et de saveurs" with a "typical northern ripening" or whatever northernly when commenting what was poured in your glass in any wine tasting event, you'll be the butt of jokes or the clown at the party. Enjoy !
French Foodie (asker) Dec 5, 2008:
not exceptionally warm Francis, it doesn't say it was exceptionally warm, it says "uneformement" warm. The northernly ripening, I believe, refers to the fact that September brings cool nights and winds, so ripening is slow and gradual, taking place in September, as opposed to August (eg Beaujelais). I don't think it can mean that ripening is taking place FURTHER north because the appellation champagne parcels are strictly marked out. They are located where they have been for decades, and have always managed to produce excellent vintages!
Francis Marche Dec 5, 2008:
To Paula Do you seriously think that an exceptionally warm year - and warm weather in general - could lead to a ripening "typical of the North" ? Where to you get that "typical of" in the French text ?
Emma Paulay Dec 5, 2008:
Sour Grapes? The meaning of septentrional is clear. We know it means northern. We know also that in this context it relates to the climate. We also know that the author intends it to mean "slow and gradual" because the word is explained just afterwards: "lente et progressive".
Francis Marche Dec 5, 2008:
Overall misreading There is nothing "typical of" here. "Septentrional" means "located in the North". Nordique in French would be "typical of the North. A exceptional warm year has lead to ripening taking place FAR NORTH. That's it.
Alain Pommet Dec 5, 2008:
That's it. Thanks Rachel - the comparative was needed.
Rachel Fell Dec 5, 2008:
To Alain cooler climes or cooler Northern climes
Charles Hawtrey (X) Dec 5, 2008:
Use of It looks as if "maturation très septentrionale" is the giveaway here. It covers, as asker says to Jessica, September as opposed to August and slower as against fast ripening. So 'typical' should be included somewhere to cover the "très" (as rdg and Emma say). Or else do it in England as seems more & more likely these days. But that's another story...
French Foodie (asker) Dec 5, 2008:
yes Thanks Alain, that's exactly how I understand it. It's simply that I find it odd to say 'northern ripening' and think that it needs to be said in a more explanatory way - ripening typical of northern climes, ripening as it occurs in more northerly regions, etc. :-)
Alain Pommet Dec 5, 2008:
In reply to your note at 10:02 I can only reiterate what I said last night. I think it is trying to make the point that 'northern' slow ripening is superior to 'southern' ripening. If you say 'méridional' in French everyone immediately thinks of the sun and "sunny climes" - but what's the opposite of that? "cool climes"?
French Foodie (asker) Dec 5, 2008:
Hi everyone, first I'd like to thank everyone who has taken the time to answer. I just wanted to clarify that I realise that the champagne wine-growing region is septentrional (northern) - it's just that I find it odd to describe *ripening* as northern. Slow, gradual, yes, but northern ripening sounds odd to my ear. Perhaps it is simply an elliptical way of saying ripening as it occurs in Northern climates.

Proposed translations

+4
7 mins
Selected

ripening typical of the North

It sounds like they are trying to compare the ripening time with that found in northern vineyards.
Peer comment(s):
agree Mark Nathan
7 mins
Thanks!
agree liz cencetti (X) : yep, that's what I'd say. Liz
31 mins
Thanks!
agree Michele Fauble
1 hr
Thank you
agree Jenny w
11 hrs
Thank you
agree Rachel Fell
16 hrs
Thank you
disagree Francis Marche : It's the opposite I'm afraid. Warm weather led to early ripening in the North. "Typical of the North" is NORDIQUE in French, not septentrional.
17 hrs
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4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Thanks to everyone for taking the time to answer this question, which has provoked some interesting discussion, to say the least! I don't like to knock people who take time to help others, but that said, I also don't appreciate being told that I and other answerers will look like clowns and be the butt of jokes simply because we happen to disagree. I may not be a seasoned winemaker, but I can definitely hold my own at a winetasting event. As Emma says, no need for sour grapes!!!"
-1
9 mins

northern ripening

I'm no conoisseur but I believe Champagne grows in one of the most northernly latitudes for grape growing - at least on a large scale.

As the text says, if the weather is cool, then the grapes will ripen slowly and that way will be more flavoursome.

I think it is trying to contrast this with 'southern' wine grapes which, because they mature quickly produce less sophisticated wine.
Note from asker:
Yes, the Champagne region is actually further north than Alsace. It's the most northernly grape-growing region in France.
Peer comment(s):
disagree Francis Marche : The text reads the weather is WARM :année uniformément chaude !
17 hrs
It might say that, but in the Champagne area it is not the same temperature in January and in July - it's hardly a tropical climate -you don't always have to interpret things literally!
Something went wrong...
3 hrs

late term ripening

My bro-in law is a vintner and the 'septentrionale' more usually refers to the last days or weeks of the ripening cycle.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 3 hrs (2008-12-05 00:40:30 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

which is to say, an indian summer is not so favorable as a gradual cooling which is good for the grape.
Note from asker:
This is interesting, Jessica. I'm going to look into this more. But it's true that the ripening for champagne (September) is quite a bit later than the Beaujolais, for example, which tends to be in August.
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-1
14 hrs

...to ripen in typical northern climate fashion...

I think you could get round the problem by replacing the FR noun with an EN verb: "enabling the grapes to ripen..."
Peer comment(s):
disagree Francis Marche : see my suggestion and comments
3 hrs
I don't agree with your interpretation.
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17 hrs

ripening process reaching exceptionally far north

What we read here is that warm weather throughout the year (année uniformement chaude) enabled (permettant) a ripening process so smooth and nice and ideal that the vineyards situated in the northernmost portion (très septentrionale) of the champagne terroir themselves ripened to perfection.

"Maturation TRES septentrionale" means the ripening process had reached EXCEPTIONALLY far north in September in that particular year.
Peer comment(s):
neutral Emma Paulay : Does that mean in the past, when the weather has been less clement, there has been no ripening at all? I don't think so! They manage to make Champagne in Champagne every year. Some years are better than others, and there are more or fewer ripe grapes...
13 mins
neutral Alain Pommet : That's your take on it - but I don't think you're right (but you obviously do with a confidence of 5). That would mean that in other, cooler years, the grapes would not ripen at all in the northernmost part. I'm slow at typing, didn't see Emma's comment.
17 mins
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Reference comments

1 hr
Reference:

northern climate

The site referenced below outlines the influence of northern climatic features on wine-grapes growing.
Reference:

http://www.conservationinstitute.org/csi_report/csireport4_05.htm

Something went wrong...
11 hrs
Reference:

Northern

See "Septentrional" for a short explanation.
Reference:

http://www.champagne.fr/dico/liste-fr.html

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