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OStR i.H.
wulstartig verdickt
May 18, 2006 09:08
17 yrs ago
German term

Weiber

May offend German to English Art/Literary Poetry & Literature Kafka
This is another quote on the calendar. My question is really what the connotations of the word "Weib" were at the turn of the 20th century? Was it already offensive by then? How would you translate it here?

"... bei den Weibern kann es uns dann nicht fehlen..."

Thank you!
Proposed translations (English)
4 women
3 +8 women
3 +1 womanfolk
2 broad

Discussion

Henry Schroeder May 18, 2006:
Your guess is as good as mine. It should be possible to determine whether Kafka preferred the word "Weib" or "Frau" by scanning through his work, especially letters. I would still break it up into two sentences probably, as suggested below in my 2nd not
Rachel Ward (asker) May 18, 2006:
Thanks Henry. I'm still not sure what he means by it though - is it "we won't lack for women" or "We won't miss the women"? If it's the latter it seems an odd heading for the page, as it's about him "sowing his wild oats"...
Henry Schroeder May 18, 2006:
I think "bei den Weibern..." is a quote from Kafka. See this website signed Franz
http://66.249.93.104/search?q=cache:INZpsHZEa6EJ:homepage.ui...
Henry Schroeder May 18, 2006:
@Francis and the West - Come save the day, make some creative suggestions. Is "woman" the only way to translate "Weib"? My answer's been properly dismissed, but isn't there anything out there: skirts, gals, etc.?
Rachel Ward (asker) May 18, 2006:
That is the entire quote as I have it, and I've no idea! The page on the calendar is headed "Kafka und die süssen Mädel".
Francis Lee (X) May 18, 2006:
Is that the entire quote, Rachel? And who said it to who?

Proposed translations

8 hrs
Selected

women

This is a quote -or rather an excerpt- from a letter written by Franz K. to Max Brod:

http://homepage.uibk.ac.at/~c10815/1908/bk08-001.htm

Here’s the entire paragraph:

“Aber da ich zu viel zu tun habe und hier Sonnenschein ist, habe ich im leeren Bureau eine fast vorzügliche Idee bekommen, deren Ausführung äußerst billig ist. Wir könnten statt unseres geplanten Nachtlebens von Montag zu Dienstag ein hübsches Morgenleben veranstalten, uns um 5 Uhr oder um ½6 bei der Marienstatue treffen -*** bei den Weibern kann es uns dann nicht fehlen*** - und ins Trocadero oder nach Kuchelbad gehn oder ins Eldorado. Wir können dann, wie es uns passen wird, im Garten an der Moldau Kaffee trinken oder auch an die Schulter der Josci gelehnt.”

The phrase refers to the Marienstatue (a place frequented by pious women attending mass), and means that -at that very location - “one certainly would not need to worry about a shortage of women”.


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Note added at 8 hrs (2006-05-18 17:56:34 GMT)
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Thanks, Henry, for provinding a link to that quote - I had found it through different channels.
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4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Thank you Johanna for the extra info (and also for the link to the Toad story on the other question!) - that context helps me understand it a lot better!"
+1
2 mins

womanfolk

I'd say that "womanfolk" should be roughly equivalent in terms of connotation and meaning. Not sure though...

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Note added at 3 mins (2006-05-18 09:11:07 GMT)
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Oops - womenfolk. Twice. Sorry.
Peer comment(s):
agree Nicole Y. Adams, M.A. : That's exactly what I would have said too
10 hrs
Thanks, Nicole. I just felt that something archaic should be used...
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+8
16 mins

women

IMHO this word did not have any negative connotations back then so there is no need to look for a special term
Peer comment(s):
agree BirgitBerlin
4 mins
danke birgit
agree Anne Brackenborough (X) : Duden mentions the neutral use with an example from Hesse, 1930
6 mins
danke anne
neutral Henry Schroeder : http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weib says pretty much what I wrote. See below.
12 mins
wikipedia is not the bible, I am not convinced...sorry!
agree 84574 (X)
21 mins
danke andrea
agree Thomas Bollmann
34 mins
danke thomas
agree Orla Ryan
1 hr
thanks orla
agree Trans-Marie : Manchmal schade, dass es keinen englischen Duden gibt...
1 hr
tja...dafür gibt es dann wenigstens proz! danke...
agree Christine Lam
1 hr
thanks christine
agree Johanna Timm, PhD : yes, see my separate explanatory entry regarding context and meaning
10 hrs
thanks johanna
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14 mins

broad

It depends on your context, that is, the social class you are talking about. Similar to today. For example, in the Dachau hinterlands, they use the word "Weib" in the Bavarian dialect as most people use "Frau".

Given that more people spoke dialect at the turn of the centry and "Hochdeutsch" wasn't as established, I imagine that it was more of an acceptible term.

However, that said, I can't imagine that König Ludwig called Sissi "sein Weib" als sie ihre Affaire hatten. :-)

I think "broad" might work, but I'm not sure.

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Note added at 21 мин (2006-05-18 09:29:16 GMT)
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As to your sentence, I would break it up into two:

We won't be missing anything. It's never worth it with the broads/the broads are worthless/the broads are uninteresting.

Something like that.

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Note added at 29 мин (2006-05-18 09:37:31 GMT)
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Seit dem Vordringen der höflichen Bezeichnung „Dame“ (aus dem Französischen) im 19. Jahrhundert wird „Weib“ oft abwertend (pejorativ) gebraucht ("dummes Weib", "Weibergeschwätz"). In Dialekten wie etwa dem Bairischen hat es diesen Bedeutungswandel noch nicht ganz hinter sich.

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weib

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Note added at 5 час (2006-05-18 14:10:48 GMT)
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Rachel - maybe you could translate it something like "We won't be missing anything. The women/crones/skirts/etc. will still be asleep."
Peer comment(s):
neutral Ken Cox : naja, IMO 'broad' is both derogatory and offensive
1 hr
Well, my answers getting hammered here and appropriately so. You guys are right, but one has to be more creative than "woman". I would have suggested crone, because I know Joyce uses it, but that only works for old women.
neutral Ian M-H (X) : I don't think this would work today - and it almost certainly wasn't in use at the turn of the 20th C. One can argue about how negative the term sounds today, but in its early days it was definitely not positive http://www.wordorigins.org/wordorb.htm
1 hr
Good job on the research! I did however indicate low confidence for this reason. But there has got to be an option better than "woman", espcially in this case. Perhaps "skirts" or "gals" or "misses" even.
neutral Francis Lee (X) : more like Miller than Kafka ... (but I'll refrain from fully kicking a man when he's down ...)
4 hrs
Thanks, yeah, my answer got crushed and properly so, but are we so uncreative that we can't come up with anything but "woman" as a translation. At least toss "crone" (Joyce) or "vixen" (Dickens) out there for variety's sake!!!! // Francis, see my note
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