| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4] > | Please tell me how to get a moderator to squash abusive users! Thread poster: Teresa Duran-Sanchez
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Werner George Patels, M.A., C.Tran.(ATIO) (X)
Local time: 05:54
German to English
+ ...
| At last, a sensible comment | Mar 25, 2002 |
Quote:
On 2002-03-25 06:31, Lemster wrote:
Mats,
I believe squashing is legitimate where an asker is using KudoZ to essentially get a whole paragraph translated (as seen in the \"Easy\" section of EN>DE/DE>EN over the weekend). The problem with those postings was not the number of questions, but the fact that they related to *phrases*, not *terms*. Of course, phrases asked will not help create the \"mother of all glossari
... See more Quote:
On 2002-03-25 06:31, Lemster wrote:
Mats,
I believe squashing is legitimate where an asker is using KudoZ to essentially get a whole paragraph translated (as seen in the \"Easy\" section of EN>DE/DE>EN over the weekend). The problem with those postings was not the number of questions, but the fact that they related to *phrases*, not *terms*. Of course, phrases asked will not help create the \"mother of all glossaries\" (I guess there\'s a reason why KudoZ etiquette clearly states that this is *terms help*).
Also, I have found that even a large string of legitimate terminology questions usually doesn\'t raise as much as an eyebrow in the community, whilst quite obvious attempts to get homework etc. translated for free will pretty quickly be a target for snide comments. I recognise that this is also against KudoZ etiquette (and have politely asked quite a number of users to contact ProZ or a moderator, if known), but what it does show is a certain level of frustration regarding these issues.
Best regards, Ralf
Fully agree with Ralf (you\'re the light at the end of the tunnel, Ralf  ).
There is a time and place for squashing: recently, I squashed a question because it had reached a point where approx. 5 members had gotten into a verbal mudfest - \"personal attack\" did not even begin to describe it! Yet, Mats, who is not even a moderator for the language pair of that particular question, stepped in and unsquashed this textbook case of abuse. UNBELIEVABLE and SHORT-SIGHTED. To make matters even worse, he convinced the poster of the original question to repost the question; Mats, then, posted a comment under the reposted question explaining his motives for unsquashing the original question and got 4 points just for that, rather than for providing an actual answer or translation.
Here\'s what I propose:
1. Moderators should be allowed to unsquash questions only in the language pair that they are assigned to - and not across the board.
2. No \"personal gain\" for moderators
3. Moderators should be relieved of their duties after a certain period of time (other websites do the same) - some tend to get \"senile\" in a manner of speaking; so some \"time-out\" is strongly recommended.
4. Sqashing is perfectly alright, and, again, KudoZ is about terms, as Ralf said, not about phrases, sentences or entire paragraphs (and there are even certain moderators that regularly post entire paragraphs, thus breaking the rules of the site time and again!)
[ This Message was edited by: on 2002-03-25 15:05 ] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Werner George Patels, M.A., C.Tran.(ATIO) (X)
Local time: 05:54
German to English
+ ...
| KudoZ = collaboration | Mar 25, 2002 |
KudoZ = collaboration - no doubt there! But it should not be about taking advantage.
So, when the latter occurs, squashing is and MUST be a legit tool.
| | | | Bill Greendyk 
United States
Local time: 05:54
Member (2002)
Spanish to English
+ ...
| Let's call a spade a spade! | Mar 25, 2002 |
I fully agree with Cidcampeador, and with Werner and Ralf as well. There is a time and place for everything. What I would like to underscore, however, is that when there is a unified, closely-knit group in a certain language pair, squashing should be permitted but almost becomes unnecessary.
Take, for example, the case in point to which Cidcampeador validly refers. Here was a case of one individual reappearing several days consecutively with sentence-by-sentence request... See more I fully agree with Cidcampeador, and with Werner and Ralf as well. There is a time and place for everything. What I would like to underscore, however, is that when there is a unified, closely-knit group in a certain language pair, squashing should be permitted but almost becomes unnecessary.
Take, for example, the case in point to which Cidcampeador validly refers. Here was a case of one individual reappearing several days consecutively with sentence-by-sentence requests for the translation of a driving manual, something she was obviously incabable of doing. In the end, her umpteenth question recieved a very gracious but tacit response by Paul Roigé, wherein he suggested that perhaps the asker was not capable of doing the translating herself. See the question for yourselves:
http://www.proz.com/kudoz/170493
As is evidenced here loudly and clearly, since Saturday, NOT ONE MEMBER of the multitudinous Spanish-English forum has proposed an answer to this question. Rather, everyone respects and agrees with Paul\'s response, as is shown by the agrees or by the fact that no one responded. And what was the result? Maria immediately stopped asking for any more translated phrases, and by the nature of the question above I know it wasn\'t the end of the driving manual!
No one denies help in the SP>EN>SP forum to those needing it, I bear witness to that first hand. Having availed myself of the assistance of innumerable selfless, disinterested colleagues who scratch their brains and their books for answers to my questions, I know that no one there is unnecessarily looking to squash question.
What I\'m amazed at are the at-times acrid responses from some on this thread to what I believe was a legitimate question about a legitimate problem. By telling Cidcampeador to go jump rope, or scream till she\'s blue int he face, are we perhaps showing what WE would do in such a situation. Cidcampeador is a professional, and one who loves the languages she works with. She also happens to be someone who is very \'forgiving\' when it comes to occasional mild forms of site \'abuse\' (for lack of a better term.) Only recently I saw yet another example of this. A certain man,who shows up occasionally on the evenings with very romantic questions which he would like to pose to his girlfriend, had exceeded the 10-word limit. Someone had suggested that he post this as a quick job. Cidcampeador was the one who posted an answer, at the same time suggesting that we not be so hard on someone who just needed some translating help to communicate to his lover! Admriable, in my humble opinion, and I told her as much. This is different, however, to the case we had on Thursday-Saturday with the driving manual. I am \'guilty\' of answering some of the asker\'s questions, and I confess to being even more guilty of posting a grammatically incorrect answer. Cidcampeador once again graciously corrected my error as a valid \'disagree,\' but alas, it was too late, the asker had already selected my INCORRECT answer. This was part of the problem here. The questions were coming flying at us at a rapid-fire rate, and usually the first answer that popped up was accepted and within minutes the next phrase appeared. Obviously the asker is going to be paid to translate this manual, and she was getting it all done for free. If that\'s not site \'abuse,\' pray tell what is.
Finally, Mats and Marcus, I think you misunderstood Cidcampeador entirely. She nor we are \'afraid\' of anything by giving answers. We simply want to keep this great site to what it\'s supposed to be, as pointed out by various others above. I truly feel at home in the SP>EN>SP forum, and we are a close group. None of us \'holler until we\'re blue,\' but we do like to call a spade a spade when we see it. Thanks for listening. Bill
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| | | | | What about a limbo to pre-squash questions and make them invisible until the moderator decides? | Mar 25, 2002 |
[quote]
On 2002-03-25 14:55, AbacusTrans wrote:
Quote:
Here\'s what I propose:
1. Moderators should be allowed to unsquash questions only in the language pair that they are assigned to - and not across the board.
2. No \"personal gain\" for moderators
3. Moderators should be relieved of their duties after a certain period of time (other websites do the same) - some tend to get \"senile\" in a manner of speaking; so some \"time-out\" is strongly recommended.
4. Squashing is perfectly alright, and, again, KudoZ is about terms, as Ralf said, not about phrases, sentences or entire paragraphs (and there are even certain moderators that regularly post entire paragraphs, thus breaking the rules of the site time and again!)
Thanks Werner, for providing such good suggestions (and information!). How is a moderator chosen? It should be done democratically. Can\'t we vote off moderators if they don\'t prove to be competent?
Another question: couldn\'t we have a \"limbo\" (pre-squashing site) for questions we judge abusive? William was perfectly right, that was the situation which made me post this issue in the forum, a certain Maria and her driving manual. So many of us agreed with Paul that this was being too much! If there was some tool to turn so many agreements into a squashing or pre-squashing, we wouldn\'t need a moderator to make a question disappear. Imagine, say, a little field next to the \"make pro / edit\" frame with the title \"Question or asker is abusive\". Ten votes (for example) from different members would activate this tool and send it to a limbo where only the moderator could squash it definitely or return it to KudoZ.
Thanks to all who have answered to this issue so far. William, thanks for your flattering comments! 
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Werner George Patels, M.A., C.Tran.(ATIO) (X)
Local time: 05:54
German to English
+ ...
| All good and valid points, William | Mar 25, 2002 |
The Spanish community is way ahead of everyone else on this site. For a long time now, I have been following your discussions (in KudoZ and the Spanish forum) on KudoZ abuse, and it appears that you guys have actually achieved some kind of solidarity and consensus with respect to such abuse.
Since the Spanish community is fairly large, it is hard to believe that a moderator would go and fly in the face of such unity on this issue by telling everyone to shut up and simply to... See more The Spanish community is way ahead of everyone else on this site. For a long time now, I have been following your discussions (in KudoZ and the Spanish forum) on KudoZ abuse, and it appears that you guys have actually achieved some kind of solidarity and consensus with respect to such abuse.
Since the Spanish community is fairly large, it is hard to believe that a moderator would go and fly in the face of such unity on this issue by telling everyone to shut up and simply tolerate this ongoing abuse (=free translations).
Asking for 20 terms is fine; asking for 20 phrases, sentences or paragraphs is not, and such \"requests\" should not only be ignored, but squashed. However, I don\'t object to learners of a foreign language who post the occasional sentence or phrase in order to deepen their understanding of a new language. There can never be just one rule for all types of questions; each question must be looked at on its merits.
Finally, I find it highly unprofessional to make snide remarks about \"professional translators\" - that smacks of \"sour grapes\"! By making such comments, all one achieves is to define onself as not being one of them. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Silly ambiguous thing, the term "professional"... | Mar 25, 2002 |
Quote:
On 2002-03-25 16:35, AbacusTrans wrote:
Finally, I find it highly unprofessional to make snide remarks about \"professional translators\" - that smacks of \"sour grapes\"! By making such comments, all one achieves is to define onself as not being one of them.
I agree! I must apologise for making remarks on the \"professionalism\" of others.
What the heck! We sometimes judge o... See more Quote:
On 2002-03-25 16:35, AbacusTrans wrote:
Finally, I find it highly unprofessional to make snide remarks about \"professional translators\" - that smacks of \"sour grapes\"! By making such comments, all one achieves is to define onself as not being one of them.
I agree! I must apologise for making remarks on the \"professionalism\" of others.
What the heck! We sometimes judge others without knowing a single thing about them, I\'m going to stop being childish in that respect. Thanks for opening my eyes, Werner! (And apologies to Marcus for a previous remark on his documentation abilities...) ▲ Collapse
| | | | | It's not the number of queries, it's the density | Mar 25, 2002 |
A hypothetical case:
Translator #1 posts 15 consecutive queries (words and phrases totalling 60 words). They were taken from a 5000 word text which she has spent the last 3 days working on. These queries represent the only doubts she had in the whole text.
\"Translator\" #2 posts 15 consecutive queries, consisting of phrases and sentences totalling 60 words. Put them together, and you have the complete text.
Are these 2 persons equally \"guilty... See more A hypothetical case:
Translator #1 posts 15 consecutive queries (words and phrases totalling 60 words). They were taken from a 5000 word text which she has spent the last 3 days working on. These queries represent the only doubts she had in the whole text.
\"Translator\" #2 posts 15 consecutive queries, consisting of phrases and sentences totalling 60 words. Put them together, and you have the complete text.
Are these 2 persons equally \"guilty\" of abuse? I don\'t think so. It\'s not the volume of queries, it\'s the density. If you can reconstruct the entire text on the basis of the queries, then it\'s someone using KudoZ to get a free translation. (But even then, do we cut them some slack if they\'re in love?) ▲ Collapse
| | | | Bill Greendyk
United States
Local time: 05:54
Member (2002)
Spanish to English
+ ...
| Good Sense from GoodWords | Mar 25, 2002 |
Precisely! You\'ve put into few words what I was trying to convey. In the particular case of the driving manual, most of us on line that day could have practically read the manual, as we went from left turns to right turns, to entering freeways and exiting freeways.
And as of \'cutting slack when they\'re in love,\' if Maria had even hinted about translating this driver\'s manual for her Spanish boyfriend who couldn\'t read the English version, I dare say you and I would... See more Precisely! You\'ve put into few words what I was trying to convey. In the particular case of the driving manual, most of us on line that day could have practically read the manual, as we went from left turns to right turns, to entering freeways and exiting freeways.
And as of \'cutting slack when they\'re in love,\' if Maria had even hinted about translating this driver\'s manual for her Spanish boyfriend who couldn\'t read the English version, I dare say you and I would have had some soft spots in our hearts.
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John Kinory (X)
Local time: 10:54
English to Hebrew
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| This is precisely the abusive language that requires squashing | Mar 25, 2002 |
[quote]
On 2002-03-25 08:03, marcushm wrote:
Quote:
If you don\'t like it, and you may holler until you\'re blue, then go read a book or skip rope ...
... Those who seem to love wearing cop hats and swinging their Web batons seem to be the first to cry wolf and sound all too shrill in their pontificating. [yawn]
As a moderator, I would act just like Mats: I would unsquash any question that was squashed for alleged reasons of abuse trumped up by over-zealous members who conceive phantom rules they impose on everybody else.
It\'s a simple rule of thumb: this site is about collaboration. If you remember that, then it will probably (finally!) force you to stop yellin\' abuse all the time. So can it, Mary.
No, Marcus. Whether or not you are capable of conducting a civilised debate without constantly hurling insults and abuse (incl. your oh-so-witty comment about the \'gnarled fingers\' of those who happen to disagree with you) - Mary will not can it. I certainly won\'t. You can shut up some of the people some of the time, etc.
If I encounter sexist insults posted as questions, I will continue to squash them as I have been doing. If I see racist questions, I will squash them as before. And the next time abuse such as the above is gratuitously posted in a Kudoz question, and never mind who it\'s directed at, I will squash it.
[addsig]
| | | | | Say that again? | Mar 25, 2002 |
Quote:
On 2002-03-25 08:03, marcushm wrote:
Regarding what Ralf pointed out: yes, there were some outsiders who have posted entire paragraphs, consecutive phrases, etc. but these have been rare exceptions.
This posting is not only incredibly rude in general, but it also makes the ridiculous claim quoted above. \"Rare exceptions\"!!!!????\" You gottabekidding! Maybe that is true in this person... See more Quote:
On 2002-03-25 08:03, marcushm wrote:
Regarding what Ralf pointed out: yes, there were some outsiders who have posted entire paragraphs, consecutive phrases, etc. but these have been rare exceptions.
This posting is not only incredibly rude in general, but it also makes the ridiculous claim quoted above. \"Rare exceptions\"!!!!????\" You gottabekidding! Maybe that is true in this person\'s language combinations, but in mine it happens at least once a week: people posting entire jobs in KudoZ and expecting to have their work done for free by naive translators. That, by the way is what I consider abuse, not to post a long list of terms.
I fully agree with William, the best attitude you can take in these cases is simply ignore the questions. I have seen entire manuals, brochures and papers posted in KudoZ, and, though I like KudoZ points as much as the next guy, and I suppose it would be possible to accumulate a ton of such points by answering such questions, I actually hate to be taken for a ride, and to see my line of work mocked by half-assed amateurs. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | The mother of all glossaries | Mar 25, 2002 |
I don\'t think the aim of KudoZ could or should be creating the mother of all glossaries. Each glossary is, because ot its own nature, limited to one specific subject and can\'t be amalgamated with others. I doubt also if an addition of clumsily selected meaningless answers to senseless questions can ever make up a glossary.
IMHO all questions that can be directly looked up in a general dictionary or in the KudoZ glossary should remain unanswered. Same with any complete sent... See more I don\'t think the aim of KudoZ could or should be creating the mother of all glossaries. Each glossary is, because ot its own nature, limited to one specific subject and can\'t be amalgamated with others. I doubt also if an addition of clumsily selected meaningless answers to senseless questions can ever make up a glossary.
IMHO all questions that can be directly looked up in a general dictionary or in the KudoZ glossary should remain unanswered. Same with any complete sentence not justified for context o style purposses.
Besides, the KudoZ system can be flooded and we should avoid this. Perhaps this problem is more evident in the English-Spanish language pairs than in others. I think that is what Cidcampeador is pointing at. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Werner George Patels, M.A., C.Tran.(ATIO) (X)
Local time: 05:54
German to English
+ ...
Quote:
On 2002-03-25 12:26, Cidcampeador wrote:
I can´t believe somebody who calls himself a professional can admit being dependent on the KudoZ to such an extent. Don´t you have other resources, Marcus, to do your translations? How can a real translation professional possibly need to post more than, say, 10 or 20 questions in less than an hour?
My sentiments exactly! Especially ... See more Quote:
On 2002-03-25 12:26, Cidcampeador wrote:
I can´t believe somebody who calls himself a professional can admit being dependent on the KudoZ to such an extent. Don´t you have other resources, Marcus, to do your translations? How can a real translation professional possibly need to post more than, say, 10 or 20 questions in less than an hour?
My sentiments exactly! Especially when 20-30 questions are posted in a subject area that the asker claims in his/her profile to be sooooo proficient in! KudoZ should be the last resort - and real professionals don\'t have to use it all!
[ This Message was edited by: on 2002-03-25 19:56 ] ▲ Collapse
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Werner George Patels, M.A., C.Tran.(ATIO) (X)
Local time: 05:54
German to English
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| My comment did not refer to you,... | Mar 25, 2002 |
Quote:
On 2002-03-25 17:50, Cidcampeador wrote:
Quote:
On 2002-03-25 16:35, AbacusTrans wrote:
Finally, I find it highly unprofessional to make snide remarks about \"professional translators\" - that smacks of \"sour grapes\"! By making such comments, all one achieves is to define onself as not being one of them.
I agree! I must
... See more Quote:
On 2002-03-25 17:50, Cidcampeador wrote:
Quote:
On 2002-03-25 16:35, AbacusTrans wrote:
Finally, I find it highly unprofessional to make snide remarks about \"professional translators\" - that smacks of \"sour grapes\"! By making such comments, all one achieves is to define onself as not being one of them.
I agree! I must apologise for making remarks on the \"professionalism\" of others.
What the heck! We sometimes judge others without knowing a single thing about them, I\'m going to stop being childish in that respect. Thanks for opening my eyes, Werner! (And apologies to Marcus for a previous remark on his documentation abilities...)
... but to a certain moderator ▲ Collapse
| | | | Werner George Patels, M.A., C.Tran.(ATIO) (X)
Local time: 05:54
German to English
+ ...
| That IS a big problem | Mar 25, 2002 |
[quote]
On 2002-03-25 16:26, Cidcampeador wrote:
Quote:
On 2002-03-25 14:55, AbacusTrans wrote:
Quote:
Here\'s what I propose:
1. Moderators should be allowed to unsquash questions only in the language pair that they are assigned to - and not across the board.
2. No \"personal gain\" for moderators
3. Moderators should be relieved of their duties after a certain period of time (other websites do the same) - some tend to get \"senile\" in a manner of speaking; so some \"time-out\" is strongly recommended.
4. Squashing is perfectly alright, and, again, KudoZ is about terms, as Ralf said, not about phrases, sentences or entire paragraphs (and there are even certain moderators that regularly post entire paragraphs, thus breaking the rules of the site time and again!)
Thanks Werner, for providing such good suggestions (and information!). How is a moderator chosen? It should be done democratically. Can\'t we vote off moderators if they don\'t prove to be competent?
Another question: couldn\'t we have a \"limbo\" (pre-squashing site) for questions we judge abusive? William was perfectly right, that was the situation which made me post this issue in the forum, a certain Maria and her driving manual. So many of us agreed with Paul that this was being too much! If there was some tool to turn so many agreements into a squashing or pre-squashing, we wouldn\'t need a moderator to make a question disappear. Imagine, say, a little field next to the \"make pro / edit\" frame with the title \"Question or asker is abusive\". Ten votes (for example) from different members would activate this tool and send it to a limbo where only the moderator could squash it definitely or return it to KudoZ.
Thanks to all who have answered to this issue so far. William, thanks for your flattering comments!
You are one of the fresh faces here, but you are catching on fast, grasshopper!
Yes, the selection of moderators has been a problem for a long time. There ARE some fine and professional colleagues serving as moderators, but there are also others that have \"stood out\" like sore thumbs because of unprofessional conduct, engaging in site abuse, etc. Some of them, IMHO, are not even professional translators (by any definition of that term).
I like your idea of voting them in or out. I hope Henry is listening. It\'s about time that this site dedicated to \"meritocracy\" (according to the site owner) became more democratic.
| | | | Mats Wiman
Sweden
Local time: 11:54
Member (2000)
German to Swedish
+ ...
In memoriam | If you feel it's abuse you're allowed to react but not to squash (to kill) | Mar 25, 2002 |
Dear Hussein,
We\'ve had a few cases like that in my SC\'s and at time I have responded (not as a moderator, but as a participator):
\"This is a job. Post it as such\" but I never squashed/killed it. If someone wants to have go at it, why should I be disturbed? This is a help page where we all learn and help.
So let it be!
For offensive questions, see my \'black curtain\' suggestion above
Best regards
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