| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4] > | What's the difference? (if any) Thread poster: Aurora Humarán (X)
|
|---|
Alicia Casal 
Argentina
Local time: 13:24
English to Spanish
+ ...
| Aurora Humarán (X)
Argentina
Local time: 13:24
English to Spanish
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Alicia Casal wrote:
Give us the answer!
lol!
Ja ja ja... the answer is not my problem, Alicia, as I have it! what I want to know is how native speakers of English 'read' the two sentences.
I don't want to give hints because I want real feedback from English speakers (ideally, from linguists and non-linguists).
Read you tomorrow. Thank you!
Au
| | | | Parrot
Spain
Local time: 18:24
Spanish to English
+ ...
Andy Watkinson wrote: PS. Ceci, I'd invite you to "Los Caracoles" in BCN, if you're ever over here, except eating slugs in shells, well.... I hate the idea. 
... not BCN, but Lleida, in particular a town called Espot smack in the National Park. Someone keeps a private snail farm that serves them in garlic, parsley and olive oil. I swear I can pass up any other slugs except those. And in saying this I am backed up by certain Irish converts.
| | | | | Horrible phrases | Sep 12, 2006 |
As an English speaker they convey the same thing to me, but they sound horrible (and I'm not referring to snails) like some kind of tongue-twister, too many ssssss.
It could mean:
I hate the way John eats snails, or
I hate it when John eats snails,
But I don't think it is good or natural English, maybe because of the object after the gerund.
| | |
|
|
|
jmf
United States
Local time: 12:24
Member (2006)
Spanish to English
| Agree with Olivia | Sep 12, 2006 |
Olivia MAHÉ wrote:
To me, "I hate John's eating snails" means I dislike THE FACT that he eats snails, because I find it disgusting or cruel, while "I hate John's eating of snails" means I hate HIS particular way of eating them, which is probably disgusting too...
That is exactly how I (native Eng.) read the sentences.
I hate John's eating snails: I hate it that John eats snails
I hate John's eating of snails: I hate the way (manner in which) he eats them
| | | | Fan Gao
Australia
Local time: 02:24
English to Chinese
+ ...
| My reading... | Sep 12, 2006 |
Hi,
I (Mark-British) read it the same as JMF and Olivia:
I hate John's eating snails: I hate the fact that John eats snails at all.
I hate John's eating of snails: I hate the manner in which he just picks them up and sucks them out of their shells instead of using a toothpick or a small fork.
Hope it helps,
Mark
Edited for additional comment: I can see why it would confuse non native speakers because the way the first one is ... See more Hi,
I (Mark-British) read it the same as JMF and Olivia:
I hate John's eating snails: I hate the fact that John eats snails at all.
I hate John's eating of snails: I hate the manner in which he just picks them up and sucks them out of their shells instead of using a toothpick or a small fork.
Hope it helps,
Mark
Edited for additional comment: I can see why it would confuse non native speakers because the way the first one is written makes it sound like "I hate John's collection of eating snails."
[Edited at 2006-09-12 03:25] ▲ Collapse
| | | | RHELLER
United States
Local time: 10:24
French to English
+ ...
| neither sentence sounds good | Sep 12, 2006 |
I hate John's eating snails.
I hate John's eating of snails.
I agree with Lesley Clarke on this one.
Even if they could be considered correct (which I don't think they can be), they sound awkward and twisted. This is not how the English language was designed to be used. So, it really comes down to style which is quite subjective.
More appropriate would be:
My, how John eats snails distastefully. (notice the use of an adverb to mod... See more I hate John's eating snails.
I hate John's eating of snails.
I agree with Lesley Clarke on this one.
Even if they could be considered correct (which I don't think they can be), they sound awkward and twisted. This is not how the English language was designed to be used. So, it really comes down to style which is quite subjective.
More appropriate would be:
My, how John eats snails distastefully. (notice the use of an adverb to modify the verb to eat)
I dislike the fact that John eats snails.
I dislike the way (manner) in which John eats snails.
good luck, Aurora ▲ Collapse
| | | | Refugio
Local time: 09:24
Spanish to English
+ ...
| Agree with Olivia, Lesley and Rita | Sep 12, 2006 |
Olivia's distinction between the two is valid, but neither one sounds natural, or if I may dare to say so without irritating any moderator, the teacher doesn't sound like a native speaker of English. In my humble opinion, there is little point in doing comparative grammatical analysis if the examples chosen would never be used in standard English. Yes, Lesley, they are indeed horrible. But should the teacher be told that, and is it likely to be believed?
| | |
|
|
|
Jande
Australia
Local time: 02:24
Danish to English
+ ...
| If the first is still in genative form | Sep 12, 2006 |
I hate John's eating snails
Means: I hate the eating snails, which belong to John.
That is:
Subject = I
Verb = hate
Object = snails
Adjective = eating
Object's Owner = John
I hate John's eating of snails
Means: I hate the way John eats snails.
That is:
Subject = I
Verb = hate
Object = eating
Object's Owner = John
Adverb = of snails
| | | | | Neither sentence | Sep 12, 2006 |
Neither of these sentences has any clear meaning, as they are purely fabricated. I cannot imagine any native English speaker saying either.
We would either say: I hate the fact that he eats snails
or
I hate John eating snails first thing in the morning, etc.
Theortetically, however, both your sentences have the same meaning, except that the latter is archaic or literary or slangy/colloquial, and generally not preferred.
| | | | | Agree with Ruth | Sep 12, 2006 |
I hate John's eating snails=I hate the fact that he eats snails.
I hate John's eating of snails=I hate the way in which he eats them.
Neither of them sound good and if I were editing a piece of writing with one of those sentences, I would probably change it. Unless, of course, it were included as a linguistic example in a paper.
Anna
| | | | | Agree with Olivia | Sep 12, 2006 |
I just wanted to mention that the point of the exercise being other than a question of style, even if most of us find these sentences horrible, that is not what we are invited to ponder. It is very hard to make up such examples or exercises without making up horrible sentences. They ARE grammatically correct - just not very nice sentences, that's all.
I am sure Olivia finds they sound weird - but it didn't keep her from nailing the answer. ... See more I just wanted to mention that the point of the exercise being other than a question of style, even if most of us find these sentences horrible, that is not what we are invited to ponder. It is very hard to make up such examples or exercises without making up horrible sentences. They ARE grammatically correct - just not very nice sentences, that's all.
I am sure Olivia finds they sound weird - but it didn't keep her from nailing the answer. ▲ Collapse
| | |
|
|
|
Michele Fauble
United States
Local time: 09:24
Member (2006)
Norwegian to English
+ ...
| Eating of snails vs. snails meant to be eaten | Sep 12, 2006 |
'I hate John's eating snails" can mean 'I hate John's food snails'.
There is more ambiguity in language than we are normally aware of.
| | | | Giles Watson
Italy
Local time: 18:24
Italian to English
In memoriam | You have to read it out loud... | Sep 12, 2006 |
Aurora Humarán wrote:
We analyzed the difference and my (obvious?) concern was:
1) Do English speakers see the difference? (which I did not see)
English speakers might expect to *hear* the difference marked by contrastive stress, not see it
Anyhow, the first sentence is standard English, and could be formulated without the possessive (I hate John eating snails) with no great change in meaning.
2) Does any English speaker see the difference?
I see *a* difference, in that the second sentence is formulated in a way I find contorted, and would personally be unlikely to use, but has probably been adopted for contrastive purposes.
What the unexpected prepositional phrase (eating of snails) does is to throw emphasis on what John does with snails, and suggest that people like the speaker might refrain from this practice and do something else, or indeed nothing at all, with the poor beasts.
In speech, I suspect the first syllable of EATing might be stressed. Otherwise, I can't really see the point of the "of".
A quick check on usage with Google shows that the string "John's eating of" throws up a series of ritualistic contexts (scrolls and locusts are involved), in which the individual is consuming something for purposes other than nutrition, or for nutrition in extreme circumstances.
In all cases, the non-standard form ("the eating of" as opposed to a plain, vanilla "eating") puts a heavy (ie contrastive) emphasis on the notion of eating as opposed to anything else you might do with the grammatical object.
(We, linguists, enjoy deep structures so much that we may have orgasms going deeper and deeper, but what about a standard speaker? [Edited at 2006-09-12 01:20]
Oh, some of us get our jollies from language, too!
Suerte,
Giles
[Edited at 2006-09-12 06:55]
| | | | Jack Doughty
United Kingdom
Local time: 17:24
Russian to English
+ ...
In memoriam | US/UK difference | Sep 12, 2006 |
"I hate John's eating snails" sounds wrong to me as a UK English speaker, but I believe this form with the apostrophe "s" is common in US English. I would say "I hate John eating snails", which to me means the same as "I hate John's eating of snails", but the latter seems a clumsy way of putting it.
| | | | | Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4] > | To report site rules violations or get help, contact a site moderator: You can also contact site staff by submitting a support request » What's the difference? (if any) | CafeTran Espresso | You've never met a CAT tool this clever!
Translate faster & easier, using a sophisticated CAT tool built by a translator / developer.
Accept jobs from clients who use Trados, MemoQ, Wordfast & major CAT tools.
Download and start using CafeTran Espresso -- for free
Buy now! » |
| | TM-Town | Manage your TMs and Terms ... and boost your translation business
Are you ready for something fresh in the industry? TM-Town is a unique new site for you -- the freelance translator -- to store, manage and share translation memories (TMs) and glossaries...and potentially meet new clients on the basis of your prior work.
More info » |
|
| | | | X Sign in to your ProZ.com account... | | | | | |
Login to reply/comment 
