| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16] > | KudoZ: should "rubbish" help be appreciated? Thread poster: IanW (X)
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Maria Karra 
United States
Local time: 00:53
Member (2000)
Greek to English
+ ...
| please let's stay on topic | Jul 21, 2006 |
This is a very interesting discussion and I've already seen some great suggestions in several posts. Please, let's not focus on specific people's language skills but on the issue that Ian wanted to discuss ("should 'rubbish' help be appreciated"?). I have hidden the posts that included comments on Hilary's and Irene's language skills and profile information.
Thanks,
Maria
P.S. My personal opinion, Ian, is that rubbish help should NOT be appreciated. One should stick... See more This is a very interesting discussion and I've already seen some great suggestions in several posts. Please, let's not focus on specific people's language skills but on the issue that Ian wanted to discuss ("should 'rubbish' help be appreciated"?). I have hidden the posts that included comments on Hilary's and Irene's language skills and profile information.
Thanks,
Maria
P.S. My personal opinion, Ian, is that rubbish help should NOT be appreciated. One should stick to one's language pairs and fields of expertise, generally speaking. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Irene N
United States
Local time: 23:53
English to Russian
+ ...
My response has been moderated. I do not appreciate such selectiveness and humbly suggest to "moderate" the entire portion of the "native" subject from this forum. I do not intend to swallow in silence any unauthorized directives to stop translating into any language from anyone, whose masterpieces I have not read and, subsequently, didn't have a chance to put them on My Mentors list (I do have one).
| | | | Maria Karra
United States
Local time: 00:53
Member (2000)
Greek to English
+ ...
IreneN wrote:
My response has been moderated. I do not appreciate such selectiveness and humbly suggest to "moderate" the entire portion of the "native" subject from this forum.
Irene, rather than accusing me of "selectiveness" in this thread, feel free to contact me via my profile and let me know which posts are the ones that still bother you. I don't see any point in talking about language skills and now about "selectiveness" (harsh word in this context; I certainly don't appreciate it) in a thread about rubbish answers in KudoZ.
Thanks,
Maria
| | | | Aleksandr Okunev (X)
Local time: 07:53
English to Russian
| Calm down, Irene | Jul 21, 2006 |
IreneN wrote: I do not intend to swallow in silence
Irene, please, calm down and take a deep breath.
To the topic. ANY attempt to help should be
appreciated unless it is an attempt to gain
easy Kudoz or brownis and that is exactly where
the problems lies. Kudoz needs fundamental
reorganization, I guess.
Stay well, everyone
Aleksandr
P.S. Never hesitate to render ANY help to
me - it WILL be appreciated.
[Edited at 2006-07-21 20:29]
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Aleksandr Okunev (X)
Local time: 07:53
English to Russian
| My several copecks. | Jul 21, 2006 |
The fact that this comes from a moderator, who by definition is there to curb such behaviour, is nothing short of baffling.
Abuse of power comes as no surprise. I have 3 examples of moderator abuse up my sleeve, in PDF files on my hard drive, have neither time nor desire to get into mud-wrestling.
“Help should be appreciated, even if it is rubbish”
This is true, but what a point-grabber does is NOT help, like several people in this thread pointed out - it’s point-grabbing, quite a different thing. I clearly distinguish between “serial answers”, thoughtless and careless and clumsy but sincere attempts to help, it is not hard to tell them from each other.
I wish KudoZ wasn't for points - this should get rid of a whole bunch of problems associated with it.
I agree. Or the whole Proz should be for points, I once suggested this (on a forum, if I’m not mistaken, but fellow translators said the changes were “too drastic”).
I resent the idea of someone making an impression of my professional qualities solely on my Kudoz score, and the latter remains the one and only criterion which determines my ranking. I don’t like this and I think I am going to leave Proz if nothing changes.
Actually, in response to member requests, it is possible to ask a not-for-points questions.
Dear Henry, my stupid subjective highly biased impression is that you are trying to put a living creature in a box. The only box it can fit in is a coffin. Points are killing Kudoz and Proz, well they are “slightly killing” Proz, the same way you can be slightly pregnant.
ProZ.com is becoming its own worst enemy
And heroically repels any attempt by its members to try and change anything. Mr Gorbatchev thought he, the wisest one, could do it all alone. Now where is the USSR?
... clans, buddies, personal vendettas ...
Recently I received an e-mail from my profile full of venom from a member in my language pair about whose answer I made a silly remark while agreeing with another answer. You would appreciate this member’s professionalism he is Russian, but his message was in English – not to allow Cyrillic Unicode prevent from getting splashed with dirt in the face.
But looking at the top KudoZer at 37000+ points
That was also discussed countless times. I suspect these precious points are the main factor preventing Proz from scrapping the score system.
There have been instances of creating false profiles simply to earn KudoZ points!
Can’t believe this. What a desperate brainwashed moron!
... ones who come for professional communication and do not care for ProZ.com jobs, i.e. points ...
Hehe, Irene, none of my best clients know about Kudoz and Proz. Often I cannot even ask a Kudoz question about their stuff, it’s still in the patent agency. “More Kudoz is more Jobz” is a fairy tale too many prozians tend to persuade themselves into believing in, just because people like the safety of numbers.
Speaking about getting jobs on Proz. Twice this year I tried to find a translator on Proz and failed, as I said in another thread, I was not able to search by town. Now if during the 5 or more years of Proz existence this extremely complicated unearthly idea has not flashed across anyone within Proz staff I would say this site is in trouble.
Another point. Why are Proz agencies regarded as oursourcers? They are in fact service providers, like freelancers, but capable of handling larger volumes. Domination of Proz “job offering part” by agencies and the aggressiveness the whole process is accompanied with (yep, the jolly good elbow kicking, or reverse auctioning supposedly non-existent on Proz) repels end clients from the site. I ALWAYS recommend all my direct clients to find an alternative on Proz, many of them visit the site, ALL of them came back saying they had not liked the atmosphere.
Deduct points for "rubbish"
Exactly my point. A Kudoz page must be like a dictionary entry:
- source term
- a good definition
- examples of use
- bibliography (Web links)
- the term’s translation into the target language
- examples in the target language
etc.
Where the asker contributes the source term and the basic context, and other members contribute other parts of the entry, like in Wikipedia. No points, of course. A couple of days past the question there’s “cleanup time”, everyone involved is invited to review his/her contribution and trim/delete it, if necessary. Every byte of every member’s contribution scores, every byte deleted by the creator simply does not count, every “rubbish” byte deleted by the community or senior members if you like (Irene mentioned this idea), is deducted from the member’s overall score (suggested by writeaway too).
The same may be applied to forum posts, articles, tutorials, customer-education materials, whatever other resources Proz might wish to create, categorized, analyzed and I suspect might make it much easier for a potential client to target on a freelancer or agency on Proz suiting him best. A bit Utopian, but technically not impossible.
First of all, "rubbish" answers should not be understood as 'incorrect' answers.
There are a lot of rubbish questions too, where the asker does not bother about providing any context or, sometimes quite apparently, even typing it in Google (suggested by writeaway too).
I am clueless why Proz is so slow in implementing at least some of these. It has been discussed a lot of times with the same result: the thread gradually withers and dies, and I am getting increasingly bored with it, I guess many more people too.
Have a good weekend.
A.O.
| | | | | Improving KudoZ | Jul 22, 2006 |
Aleksandr Okunev wrote:
Exactly my point. A Kudoz page must be like a dictionary entry:
- source term
- a good definition
- examples of use
- bibliography (Web links)
- the term’s translation into the target language
- examples in the target language
etc.
Where the asker contributes the source term and the basic context, and other members contribute other parts of the entry, like in Wikipedia. No points, of course. A couple of days past the question there’s “cleanup time”, everyone involved is invited to review his/her contribution and trim/delete it, if necessary.
I am clueless why Proz is so slow in implementing at least some of these. It has been discussed a lot of times with the same result: the thread gradually withers and dies, and I am getting increasingly bored with it, I guess many more people too.
Don't give up on us, Aleksandr. And by "us" I mean your fellow members/users. You've made some good points, and KudoZ has improved over the years because of people like you who invest some energy in trying to make it better. Improvements don't happen overnight, but quite a few important changes were the result of the site listening to what people have to say.
Best wishes, Kim
| | | | IanW (X)
Local time: 06:53
German to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | Not about native vs. non-native | Jul 22, 2006 |
Before this thread is hi-jacked as a "native vs. non-native" debate, let me just point out that I see both natives and non-natives as being vital to the KudoZ process. When faced with an intelligible German sentence, my main concern is how a native German would interpret it.
What I am talking about is people with a minimal knowledge of the relevant languages dragging the general standard down by getting hopelessly out of their depth.
| | | | Aleksandr Okunev (X)
Local time: 07:53
English to Russian
| It's all time Proz favourite | Jul 22, 2006 |
Ian Winick wrote: "native vs. non-native"
More favourites:
• Diploma in linguistics good, diploma in mechanics (electronics, mathematics...) bad, and vice versa
• Live in the country of the source language good, live the country of the target language bad, and vice versa
• Use CAT good, don't use CAT bad, and vice versa
• Four legs good, two legs bad.
It is high time someone wrote an article on these isses and the topics were forever banned or moved to a flooder's ghetto, but even the best article does not boost your rating on Proz a iota...
Stay well!
Aleksandr
[Edited at 2006-07-22 09:12]
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Aleksandr Okunev (X)
Local time: 07:53
English to Russian
| Not I actually. | Jul 22, 2006 |
Kim Metzger wrote: You've made some good points
Thanks for your kind words. My ideas are not mine at all, indeed.
Let me give you an example.
I have a good friend, who's a moderator here: http://www.onliner.by
Five years ago they were on free hosting.
Three years ago they passed a hat to buy a «BY» domain name.
Now they have an office across the avenue from the presidential residence, have BMWs, travel around the world and generally have a good time.
Membership is free.
Moderators are strict (I have a red and a yellow card, one from my friend), but they never ever bash you without warning you first and finally referring to a very clear and short item of the rules. Many a time I have also seen a moderator bash an overreacting moderator.
The result is SUPERB QUALITY of the site and the audience and ad payments keep pouring in. I know more such sites I am building one myself, learning from Henry's mistakes.
Getting back to the topic. On «Onliner», any equivalent of our «point-grabber» will get a yellow - red - black card within a day or two, and fellow translators will be relieved from his presence for a while.
It takes a lot of effort to run a good site. Two PHP scripts written 5 years ago are not going to take you too far.
Stay well
Aleksandr
[Edited at 2006-07-22 09:10]
| | | | | KudoZ and Rubbish | Jul 22, 2006 |
Do we really care? Just don't answer or tell these people directly that they are morons. That'll stop them after a while. I would suggest adding another option when commenting answers: 'This is utter rubbish. Please don't bother'.
Giovanni
[Edited at 2006-07-22 10:58]
| | | | Aleksandr Okunev (X)
Local time: 07:53
English to Russian
Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL wrote: Do we really care?
I do not care about Kudoz any more.
We say it in Russian «Too late to drink mineral water when your kidneys are gone».
I would even donate my «question rights» to non-plats, but that's against the incessant «GoPlat» drive.
Stay healthy!
A.o.
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Ian Winick wrote:
What I am talking about is people with a minimal knowledge of the relevant languages dragging the general standard down by getting hopelessly out of their depth.
The whole point of this discussion is to find a way to prevent people from becoming fed up. Aleksandr's posting is a warning. There is no reason to allow Kudoz to be so dumbed down or to say thank you for rubbish answers/questions. Surely there is a way to make everyone feel 'welcome' but also to set and maintain a professionl level of standards.
On a more sarcastic note, why not open up a 'general' section for people who haven't mastered basic research skills, like using the www or dictionaries or for whom translating is like scuba diving without any equipment. Let Kudoz be for working pros who encounter difficulties and/or can really provide answers that do offer help.
I don't see this as elitist. If this a site for translators, then something has to be done to make sure it looks like a site for translators. I have nothing against 'easy' questions-we all get confused and sometimes the obvious looks wrong. Comments are aimed at people who repeatedly post 'rubbish' questions and/or people who answer any and all Kudoz questions, whether or not they actually can.
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writeaway wrote:
If this a site for translators, then something has to be done to make sure it looks like a site for translators.
This is not a site for translators, this site is open to everybody. This is the problem. It's mainly beginners and unexperienced translators or wannabes who use KudoZ. How do you stop this? Henry will never change KudoZ because they are a source of traffic and traffic means revenue. It's a brilliant idea, like the jobs area. Shame that both have badly damaged the profile of our category. If I could have it my own way, I would abolish both areas, change the name to TransCattleMarket.com and tell the moderators to stop being exploited and concentrate on their business instead.
Happy weekend...
Giovanni
[Edited at 2006-07-22 14:54]
| | | | | In Defense of Elitism | Jul 22, 2006 |
writeaway wrote:
I don't see this as elitist. If this a site for translators, then something has to be done to make sure it looks like a site for translators.
Let us recognize unashamedly that our profession includes an elite. I'm not one of them, but I'm glad some of them are members of the site and contribute to KudoZ and the forums. I have learned much from them.
elite - The best or most skilled members of a group: the football team's elite.
http://www.answers.com/topic/elite
The pejorative sense of elitism
"The belief that certain persons or members of certain classes or groups deserve favored treatment by virtue of their perceived superiority, as in intellect, social status, or financial resources."
is certainly not what most of us have been arguing for.
I think you, writeaway, and others are saying that we'd like to see a higher set of standards applied.
William A. Henry III - In Defense of Elitism
From the Pulitzer Prize-winning culture critic for Time magazine comes the tremendously controversial, yet highly persuasive, argument that our devotion to the largely unexamined myth of egalitarianism lies at the heart of the ongoing "dumbing of America." Americans have always stubbornly clung to the myth of egalitarianism, of the supremacy of the individual average man. But here, at long last, Pulitzer Prize-winning critic William A. Henry III takes on, and debunks, some basic, fundamentally ingrained ideas: that everyone is pretty much alike (and should be); that self-fulfillment is more important than objective achievement; that everyone has something significant to contribute ... that the common man is always right.
http://answers.shopping.com/xPC-In_Defense_of_Elitism_by_William_A_HenryIII~PD-2001204214~FD-63715~kworg-elitism~linkin_id-3070397~DMT-5~VK-#
[Edited at 2006-07-22 15:48]
[Edited at 2006-07-23 01:04]
| | | | Dyran Altenburg (X)
United States
Local time: 00:53
English to Spanish
+ ...
| No, rubish help should not be appreciated | Jul 22, 2006 |
writeaway wrote:
I don't see this as elitist. If this a site for translators, then something has to be done to make sure it looks like a site for translators. I have nothing against 'easy' questions-we all get confused and sometimes the obvious looks wrong. Comments are aimed at people who repeatedly post 'rubbish' questions and/or people who answer any and all Kudoz questions, whether or not they actually can.
Except this site is open to anyone and everyone who even "thinks" he or she is, or would like to be, a translator; 'cause you don't really need any special training, you don't really need any mastery of either of the languages in your profile. All you need is love.
Ain't community spirit great...
Also, don't forget that the KOG is being fed to Wikiwords (warts and all), probably with the intention of having people clean it up (one would hope) to create the mother of all dictionaries, uh... glossaries, uh... concept-based databases, uh... something like that.
Ain't collaborative effort grand...
--
Dyran
(wondering whether to watch Tank Girl, or Buckaroo Banzai)
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