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  2. Japanese to English

での

English translation: Lack of context

12:40 Feb 8, 2002
Japanese to English translations [PRO]
Japanese term or phrase: での
let me know how to translate "での" when it occurs in different translations.
krishna mallick
India
Local time: 20:22
English translation:Lack of context
Explanation:
I hate to resort to Google, but a search on "での設定変更" (use quotes to get the exact phrase) reveals a lot.

Most of the uses I found seem to be "configuring X for (in) Y".

Example:
Windows98での設定変更 (http://www.mbird.ne.jp/mind_ap/win98_manual/Win98.htm)

This could be translated as "Configuring Dial-up for Windows 98" or "Windows 98 Dial-up Configuration." The key here is that we are talking about configuring the dial-up settings within Windows 98 (as opposed to another OS).

Here "での" is translated as "for". Most of the other examples follow the same pattern.

However:

電話会社による局番変更が実施された後に、お客さま側での設定変更を行ってください。(http://www.so-net.ne.jp/manual/topics/ac_unifi/faq.html)

would probably translate as "Please update the client-side settings after the area code change has been implemented by the telephone company." or "Please update your internet settings after the area code change has been implemented by the telephone company." for a friendlier feeling.

In this example "での" has disappeared in the English version. In this case "お客さま側での設定変更" is a noun phrase meaning "change of the settings on the client's computer."

Another interesting example:
設定変更ダイアログでの設定変更の内容を実際に設定するためには「設定」ボタンをクリックして設定変更ダイアログを終了させます。(http://hp.vector.co.jp/authors/VA008624/Eudora-J-Man/prefere...

How about "Click the OK button to apply the changes made in the Account Settings Dialog and close the dialog window."

In this case "での" becomes "in".

At this point I feel that most of the suggestions posted in response to this question could be right depending on the context. Although I have difficulty understanding "Change of settings by the Master POS" (I don't mean to pick on you takuma - just an example), it could be the best translation if the context made the meaning clear.

I am only left wishing that I hadn't disagreed so soon with the other translators. I think we are all stuck without more context.

Thank you all for the good comments and a fun morning digging deeper into what seemed to be a simple problem.
Selected response from:

Eden Brandeis
Local time: 07:52
Grading comment
thankyou ebrandeis
4 KudoZ points were awarded for this answer



Summary of answers provided
5it all depends on context, in, by, through means of, at ...
Tom Moye
5How have you been translating it for the past three years?
Eden Brandeis
4 +1Change of Setting by Master POS
Mike Sekine
5Change of settings by the Master POS
Taxxmx Txxxx (X)
5Lack of context
Eden Brandeis
4in, at, by
Daruma (X)
4of,at
Manish Vadehra


Discussion entries: 1





  

Answers


11 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 5/5
it all depends on context, in, by, through means of, at ...


Explanation:
Take a look at
Makino and Tsutui's two dictionaries of Japanese grammar.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2002-02-08 13:01:03 (GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

specifically
Makino & Tsutsui, A Dictionary of Intermediate Japanese Grammar
Makino & Tsutsui, A Dictionary of Basic Japanese Grammar

Tom Moye
United States
Local time: 10:52
PRO pts in pair: 3

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
neutral  Eden Brandeis: Nice references, but I couldn't find anything in them on での
4 hrs
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1 hr   confidence: Answerer confidence 5/5
How have you been translating it for the past three years?


Explanation:
Your profile indicates that you have been doing J->E for three years. How have you been translating it up until now? What usage have you run into that is giving you trouble. A little more background would help us answer your question.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2002-02-08 15:32:57 (GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

The idea here is that the settings will be change either using or within the Master POS. POS probably means Point of Sales. This leads me to believe that you are modifying the master POS settings.

I would translate this as:

Change the Master POS settings

You could also use configuration instead of settings. If you are localizing, you would want something shorter like:

Master POS Options...
Master POS Settings...
Edit Master POS Settings...
Configure Master POS...
or if you are placing it in a menu called Edit, then

Master POS...

might work.

To give the user the idea that selecting that menu item or command button will take them to a dialog where they can change the Master POS configuration.

This link should make it pretty clear what I am talking about:

http://homepage1.nifty.com/pikkari/ML/annai3.htm

Eden Brandeis
Local time: 07:52
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in pair: 26

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
neutral  Mike Sekine: Don't mean to insult you, so please don't be offended, but in Japanese, 「で」and
3 hrs
  -> Hey Mike, you got cut off. Please email me the rest of your comment.
neutral  Taxxmx Txxxx (X): I agree in general, but I have difficulty seeing マスターＰＯＳでの設定変更 being part of a menu item in the original, if it is in fact part of an Edit menu in some sort of software. Seems kind of cumbersome to me...
3 hrs
  -> Good point. I took the localization idea one step too far.
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2 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5
in, at, by


Explanation:
it depends on the whole context and the sentence

Daruma (X)
Local time: 16:52
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2 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): +1
Change of Setting by Master POS


Explanation:
is probably what you're looking for, given the context. If you want to translate only 「での」, there are simply too many definitions.

It's like translating "is" in Japanese.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2002-02-08 17:48:24 (GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

READ:

In Japanese, 「で」 and 「での」 are two different things. 「での」 does not always refer to the location as Eden claims, although in this particular case, it is not particularly clear because the lack of context in general. 「での」 can also be understood as ¥"by using¥" (something)

allow myself to be more clear.. with the given context, you can consider two possibilities:

1 Change of Setting by Master POS, for Master POS and;
2 Change of Setting by Master POS, for other [programs].

I understood it as the first case, Eden understood it as the second. In either case, now that I think about it more, I don¥'t think the givern context is clear enough.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2002-02-08 17:49:54 (GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

sorry, made a mistake, I was thinking of case 2 and Eden was thinking 1. That¥'s why Change the Master POS Settings is acceptable also.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2002-02-08 17:52:57 (GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

sorry, made a mistake, I was thinking of case 2 and Eden was thinking 1. That¥'s why Change the Master POS Settings is acceptable also.

Mike Sekine
Japan
Local time: 23:52
Native speaker of: Native in JapaneseJapanese
PRO pts in pair: 121

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
disagree  Eden Brandeis: で is probably the place the action is taking place here. As in Windowsw98での設定変更 -> Configuring Windows98 not changing setttings by Windows98
1 hr
agree  Taxxmx Txxxx (X): I tend to agree. Although Eden has a good point.
2 hrs
agree  shizuka
1 day 1 hr
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3 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 5/5
Change of settings by the Master POS


Explanation:
Good question. If you were a native speaker, you would know intuitively what it means, but otherwise could be difficult.

A good thing to keep in mind is that での is simply a combination of the prepositions "with" and "of." The usage of "with" in this case holds the meaning of "using‾," as in "write WITH a pen (as opposed to "talking WITH friends").

マスターＰＯＳでの設定変更:
The way I read the phrase is that the change of settings, or 設定変更 occurs in something other than the Master POS. So the "of," or の points to something outside of this phrase. As in "The Change of Settings (of something) with (by) the Master POS. In this case, it probably makes more sense in English to use "by" instead of "with."

Hope that helps.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2002-02-08 16:21:58 (GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Come to think of it, ¥"Change Settings using the master POS¥" might be even better.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2002-02-08 16:25:20 (GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Another possibility. ¥"Change settings according to POS.¥"

Whichever fits best, depending on the context.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2002-02-08 18:04:16 (GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

In Eden¥'s case, it would be something like, ¥"Change settings in/from master POS,¥" or simply ¥"Change settings; master POS.¥" Like I said, context.

Taxxmx Txxxx (X)

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
disagree  Eden Brandeis: で can also refer to a location of action. In this case the Master POS is the location. This is common usage in technical Japanese.
21 mins
  -> Yes, it can, but not necessarily, As from your above response,"Windowsw98での設定変更" implies that there are other versions of Windows involved, probably a similar situation here, although very hard to tell from the given text.
agree  shizuka
1 day 20 mins
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5 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5
of,at


Explanation:
’での’has a lot of meanings depend up on the context.In your case it should be 'of'.As 設定変更　means 'configuring/change settings'.But here the meaning of ﾏｽﾀｰpos is not clear.if it means 'section' then it should be 'at' and if it is something like software,machine etc.then it should be 'of'.

Manish Vadehra
India
Local time: 20:22
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish, Native in HindiHindi
PRO pts in pair: 8
Login to enter a peer comment (or grade)

7 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 5/5
Lack of context


Explanation:
I hate to resort to Google, but a search on "での設定変更" (use quotes to get the exact phrase) reveals a lot.

Most of the uses I found seem to be "configuring X for (in) Y".

Example:
Windows98での設定変更 (http://www.mbird.ne.jp/mind_ap/win98_manual/Win98.htm)

This could be translated as "Configuring Dial-up for Windows 98" or "Windows 98 Dial-up Configuration." The key here is that we are talking about configuring the dial-up settings within Windows 98 (as opposed to another OS).

Here "での" is translated as "for". Most of the other examples follow the same pattern.

However:

電話会社による局番変更が実施された後に、お客さま側での設定変更を行ってください。(http://www.so-net.ne.jp/manual/topics/ac_unifi/faq.html)

would probably translate as "Please update the client-side settings after the area code change has been implemented by the telephone company." or "Please update your internet settings after the area code change has been implemented by the telephone company." for a friendlier feeling.

In this example "での" has disappeared in the English version. In this case "お客さま側での設定変更" is a noun phrase meaning "change of the settings on the client's computer."

Another interesting example:
設定変更ダイアログでの設定変更の内容を実際に設定するためには「設定」ボタンをクリックして設定変更ダイアログを終了させます。(http://hp.vector.co.jp/authors/VA008624/Eudora-J-Man/prefere...

How about "Click the OK button to apply the changes made in the Account Settings Dialog and close the dialog window."

In this case "での" becomes "in".

At this point I feel that most of the suggestions posted in response to this question could be right depending on the context. Although I have difficulty understanding "Change of settings by the Master POS" (I don't mean to pick on you takuma - just an example), it could be the best translation if the context made the meaning clear.

I am only left wishing that I hadn't disagreed so soon with the other translators. I think we are all stuck without more context.

Thank you all for the good comments and a fun morning digging deeper into what seemed to be a simple problem.

Eden Brandeis
Local time: 07:52
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in pair: 26
Grading comment
thankyou ebrandeis

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
neutral  Taxxmx Txxxx (X): No prob. I don't feel picked on :-D Just to clarify, "by" as in "by using~," but as you point out, it's only one way to read it out of many possibilities. - Interesting discussion.
12 hrs
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