Glossary entry

Italian term or phrase:

dott./dott.ssa

English translation:

.

Added to glossary by Tom in London
Jun 15, 2010 09:45
13 yrs ago
59 viewers *
Italian term

dott./dott.ssa

Non-PRO Italian to English Other General / Conversation / Greetings / Letters experts\' titles
In a list of experts invited to a congress, among lawyers and professors, I have "dott." (which is not medical doctor). Which is the English translation for the Italian title dott./dott.ssa to address an expert in a particular field (which is not medical field)?

Thank you all.
Change log

Jun 15, 2010 16:28: SYLVY75 changed "Level" from "PRO" to "Non-PRO"

Jun 16, 2010 15:32: Tom in London Created KOG entry

Votes to reclassify question as PRO/non-PRO:

Non-PRO (3): ARS54, philgoddard, SYLVY75

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Discussion

Inter-Tra Jun 15, 2010:
Congresso = Titolo inserito! Ciao Gabriella, per esperienza ti consiglio vivamente di insereire nella lista degli esperti di un congresso il titolo, poiché è d'obbligo! DR in italiano è solo l'abbreviazione per medico(dottore). Nel tuo caso invece è Dott/Dott.ssa . Ti consiglio comunque di scoprire tutti i vari titoli degli speaker ed eventualmente di inserirli/farli inserire.
Mr Murray (X) Jun 15, 2010:
IF something is needed... I supplied my idea of 'esquire' only IF someone really wants to put at least something to replace the space of 'dott' - otherwise I could easily accept answers such as use nothing or leave as is. But, IF something is required in English, nothing or leaving as is doesn't work well for me.
ARS54 Jun 15, 2010:
In glossario ricorre già moltissime volte; un esempio:-

http://www.proz.com/kudoz/italian_to_english/general_convers...

Proposed translations

+5
13 mins
Selected

.

It would be more usual (and more correct) just to give their names: Franco Rossi, etc. without calling them anything like Dr. or Prof. etc. That's the usual way in English. The less you parade your academic titles, the more distinguished you are, because people "just know". :)
Peer comment(s):

agree Michael McCann : Yes, agree
5 mins
agree philgoddard : The Guardian style guide says only use Dr for doctors of medicine.
26 mins
agree James (Jim) Davis : This is another way - if the people concerned don't complain, "Eng." for ingegnere does look pretty ridiculous.
32 mins
agree Simon Lewis : Absolutely. Otherwise you have to try and translate arch. / ing. etc. etc. and it's going to sound ridiculous in English
1 hr
agree Claudia Cherici
5 hrs
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4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Thank you. I definitely appreciate your comment."
+4
11 mins

Prof (for professor), Dr (for other academic), Mr/Ms (otherwise)

Ordinary people with university degrees are just plain Mr/Ms/Mrs/Miss unless they are university professors (Prof) or have a PhD (Dr).
Also, in order to avoid the minefield of irrelevance about whether the women involved are married or not, the somewhat ugly modern catch-all of Ms can be used until the English-speaking world comes up with something better.
HTH.
Peer comment(s):

agree Monia Di Martino : Perfect.
7 mins
agree Peter Cox
1 hr
agree Valentina Mellone : that's a good explanation. As far as I know, "Dr." is also used for graduates in Medicine.
1 hr
neutral S E (X) : if the need is to formally address each person directly, as in an invitation or email, yes, definitely, nary a doubt.
3 hrs
agree John Walsh : totally agree.....but I don't think "Ms" is ugly ;)
1 day 4 hrs
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49 mins

Esq.

Since there is no equivalent - in my humble opinion - for this title in contemporary English - I always go through a lot of considerations when translating 'dott' and 'dott.ssa' - I debate whether to substitite with social titles - Mr, Mrs, Ms, and similar - leave it as in the original language - add a comment such as 'this is not a PhD or medical field title' ... finally, I have decided, when it's a question of putting at least something - the best equivalent is 'esquire' - which I truncate as Esq [British (no full-stop (becasue it's a truncation not an abbreviation)] and Esq. [American (because they use periods for these types of truncations)]. Italians use 'dottore' after their 'first degree' or laurea, and because the laurea doesn't equate to the 'English' university system I believe it's imprecise to use any contemporary title. Plus, it's unfair or confusing to suggest 'doctor' because the term 'doctor' is now in use in Italy for people receiving PhD's and medical designations in Italy.

I know this a common debate for translators.

I use 'esquire' to be a polite title placed after a person's name when no other title is used. As no title is used for undergraduates - usually - in English/American systems - I feel dragging out 'esquire' is fair.

It's definitely not a technique common in translating - but I've never found another solution I liked.

Calling somone with a 'laurea' level of study 'doctor' is misleading at best.

I feel the use of 'dottore' in modern Italian society is a recognition of 'social' status more than anything. They same way they use the title 'engineer' or 'lawyer' in front of names - which is not a modern English custom either. Because, 'esquire' is defined - see Wikipedia - as a social title - I find it a suitable equivalent for 'dottore.'

I don't believe 'googling' is much help on this issue - nor dictionaries - so I hope my solution catches on.

I love this definition for 'dottore' in Wikipedia (English) - "Il Dottore is a local angry disruptive busybody who doesn't listen to anyone else from any of the fields that he claims to know about, which is many (medicine, law, etc.). He is traditionally portrayed as having been educated either in Bologna or Padua, which since the Renaissance had two of the most prestigious universities of Italy and Europe." Of course this is 'dottore' in the dramatic sense!
Example sentence:

\

Peer comment(s):

neutral James (Jim) Davis : In the UK people with nothing else like a B.A. or B.Sc. to put after their name, use esq as better than nothing, so when you read it you know they have no degree. This person has a degree, so it would be totally wrong, like saying black instead of white.
20 hrs
Exactly - I agree - that's why I suggested it - as to paraphrase your words - there's nothing better to put
Something went wrong...
1 hr

BSc, BA, MSc, MA etc.

I prefer Tom's suggestion, but this is a way to render the 'dottore' if someone absolutely insists on having their qualification listed - you can list as many (often irrelevant) titles as you want AFTER a name.
Something went wrong...
3 hrs

PhD, MA, MArch, MFA, MS, etc. - in a list of names, in America

I don't know whether you intend to address the people on this list directly or will be listing them. Oliver is right re. addressing the person directly (ie in a letter, invitation, email, etc.)

When not addressing the person directly, but listing him/her, for example on a conference program, these often go after the name:

PhD = Dottore di ricerca (dottorato di ricerca)
MA = Dottore magistriale (specializzazione)
[BA = Dottore (laurea) - I can't say I've ever seen anyone list the BA after their name, and I list it here only for comparative purposes.]

Lawyers often use JD (juris doctor/doctorate).

People who have gone to business school, MBA.

The translation for someone with a "specializzazione" is tricky, because in addition to the Master of Arts (MA), there is also the MS (Master of Science), the MArch (Master of Architecture), MFA (Master of Fine Arts), and etc.

Although, as Tom in London wrote, such lists sometimes don't include such information because its assumed, for example in a small field where everyone knows each other.

I'm sure of this, if it is for an American context, because I'm an academic (now Ph.D., but before that MPhil, and before that MA) and have been dealing with this issue for a decade and a half. :-)

What I am not sure of is how you need to use the names. So, if you need to write to these people individually, I would go with Oliver's answer. And definitely, Ms. is what female professionals in America use, regardless of marital status.
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+2
18 mins

dott./dott.ssa (in italics - corsivo)

One common method of dealing with titles is to simply keep the original, but put them in italics (corsivo).

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Note added at 21 hrs (2010-06-16 07:30:09 GMT)
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Glad you mentioned that Ambra, I had meant to say it. Once I put all the titles of the top managment of a very large and austere company in Italics on this basis. Then my contact in the company (at a much lower level) just said "Cav Lav" looks silly in English and she demoted them all at a stroke. Luckily none complained :)
Peer comment(s):

agree Ambra Giuliani : Given how touchy we Italians are about titles and how it could be perceived as offensive to omit such an "ethereal" title, I usually leave it as is. Nobody has ever complained, yet.
7 hrs
Glad you mentioned that Ambra, I had meant to say it.
agree Inter-Tra : Absolutely. Agree 100%. In a congress it is required.
9 hrs
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