Glossary entry (derived from question below)
German term or phrase:
Durfte ich
English translation:
Did I have the right to; was I justified in; was it the right thing to do
Added to glossary by
Susan Welsh
Nov 24, 2018 15:56
5 yrs ago
2 viewers *
German term
United States
Psychology, economics, politics
Native in: English 
Works in: Russian to English, German to English, English
Durfte ich
Non-PRO
German to English
Social Sciences
Psychology
prolonged grief (question is really about grammar)
This is from the summary of a treatment manual, and the quotes are examples of dysfunctional thoughts that are treated during the exposure session.
Zu Beginn der Sitzung werden die Gedanken besprochen, die während des schwierigsten Momentes in der Exposition oder nach der Sitzung aufgetaucht sind. In der Folge werden diese dysfunktionalen Gedanken hinterfragt. Dazu werden die einzelnen Gedanken zum einen auf ihren Realitätsgehalt und Nutzen hin geprüft (siehe Sitzung 10) und zum anderen werden Gedanken, die mit Entscheidungen in Verbindungen stehen, bei denen Normen des Patienten in Konflikt geraten sind (z.B. «***Durfte ich bei meiner Tochter die lebenserhaltenden Maßnahmen beenden?***»).
I can't figure out what "dürfen" means here in the simple past tense. The daughter must be dead, since this is about bereavement. From context, I think the relevant sentence might mean "Should I have been permitted to end my daughter's life-support measures?" or "Could I have been permitted to...?" - but the implications of these are opposite. The first implies that the bereaved person withdrew her daugher's life-support measures, and is now agonizing over whether that was the right thing to do (maybe she should not have been permitted to do that); the second implies that she was not permitted to withdraw life-support, and her daughter continued to live for a time but that was agonizing to all concerned.
The first meaning makes no sense to me, but I don't see that it works grammatically.
Thanks!
Zu Beginn der Sitzung werden die Gedanken besprochen, die während des schwierigsten Momentes in der Exposition oder nach der Sitzung aufgetaucht sind. In der Folge werden diese dysfunktionalen Gedanken hinterfragt. Dazu werden die einzelnen Gedanken zum einen auf ihren Realitätsgehalt und Nutzen hin geprüft (siehe Sitzung 10) und zum anderen werden Gedanken, die mit Entscheidungen in Verbindungen stehen, bei denen Normen des Patienten in Konflikt geraten sind (z.B. «***Durfte ich bei meiner Tochter die lebenserhaltenden Maßnahmen beenden?***»).
I can't figure out what "dürfen" means here in the simple past tense. The daughter must be dead, since this is about bereavement. From context, I think the relevant sentence might mean "Should I have been permitted to end my daughter's life-support measures?" or "Could I have been permitted to...?" - but the implications of these are opposite. The first implies that the bereaved person withdrew her daugher's life-support measures, and is now agonizing over whether that was the right thing to do (maybe she should not have been permitted to do that); the second implies that she was not permitted to withdraw life-support, and her daughter continued to live for a time but that was agonizing to all concerned.
The first meaning makes no sense to me, but I don't see that it works grammatically.
Thanks!
Proposed translations
(English)
Proposed translations
+2
1 hr
Sangeeta Joshi
India
India
Native in English
India
Accurate and readable
Native in: English (Variant: UK) 
, Hindi
Works in: German to English
Selected
Was I justified in
To me, your first inference seems to make better sense: that she authorised the withdrawal of her daughter's life support measures and is now agonising over whether or not that was the right thing to do. It appears that she is anxious as to whether or not her decision was conscionable, i.e. acceptable or permissible according to conscience.
Peer comment(s):
| agree |
Anne Schulz
56 mins
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Thanks.
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| neutral |
philgoddard
: That may fit the context, but it's not what the German says.
1 hr
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If the very act of deciding rather than the moral justification of such an act is being questioned here in the German sentence, then I would go with Thomas Pfann's suggestion, namely "was it for me to decide". Perhaps he should enter it as a suggestion.
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| agree |
Michael Martin, MA
: This is what the German says because the literal meaning of dürfen is not relevant here
4 hrs
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Thanks.
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4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
Comment: "Thanks to all. This was a more useful discussion than I expected (I marked it non-PRO because I thought it was a simple matter for native speakers, but it turned out not to be). Björn's post was the most helpful, but he didn't put it up as an answer. Sangeeta was the first to steer me away from external "permission" to an internal moral decision. "
+3
46 mins
philgoddard
United States
United States
Native in English
United States
Six languages into flawless English
Native in: English
Works in: German to English, French to English, Spanish to English, and 4 more.
Related KudoZ points
:
30
was I allowed to
That's how I see it.
http://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/dürfen
http://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/dürfen
Note from asker:
| I don't see how this would involve conflict with the patient's values or norms, or why it would be a matter of anxiety during exposure therapy. |
Peer comment(s):
| agree |
Katarina Peters
2 mins
|
| agree |
Stefan Ploch
: I agree. Or "Was I permitted to"
37 mins
|
| agree |
Thomas Pfann
: Yes, and not in a legal but in a moral sense – "was it for me to decide" might be another way to phrase this. The patient took a decision and is now questioning whether or not he actually had the right to take this decision.
2 hrs
|
8 hrs
David Hollywood
Native in English
worked for int. orgs (IMF, OAS, IDB)
Native in: English
Works in: Spanish to English, German to English
Related KudoZ points
:
14
Was it right of me to ...
Subtle differences here and I think this is what is meant
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Note added at 8 hrs (2018-11-25 00:07:49 GMT)
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I think she's doubting herself here...
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Note added at 8 hrs (2018-11-25 00:09:41 GMT)
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and this would be a natural way of expressing her doubts
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Note added at 8 hrs (2018-11-25 00:07:49 GMT)
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I think she's doubting herself here...
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Note added at 8 hrs (2018-11-25 00:09:41 GMT)
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and this would be a natural way of expressing her doubts
7 hrs
Michael Martin, MA
United States
United States
Native in German
&
English
Works in field
United States
Creativity wins in the long run
Native in: German (Variant: Germany) , English (Variant: US)
Works in: German to English
Related KudoZ points
:
116
Was I (ethically) permitted to...?
'Was I ethically permitted to withdraw my daughter's life support?'
If this had been about compliance to rules, there would have been a cut-and-dried answer for that. But the German verb 'dürfen' is not always used in this way. In this case, it's about this person's own moral compass, or his or her own decision, IMO.
Compare with this:
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Note added at 8 hrs (2018-11-25 00:13:07 GMT)
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"Heute ist es vier Wochen her dass ich mein Kind umgebracht habe. Ich kann an manchen Tagen gut damit umgehen, aber heute ist es besonders schlimm. Ich weiss nicht ob ich je wieder unbeschwert sein kann. Ich habe diese Kind gewollt, ich liebe und vermisse dieses Kind, und ich habe meine Ronja umgebracht, weil ich kein behindertes Kind wollte. Warum ? Hundertmal hab ich das hier gelesen, keine Antwort gefunden. Durfte ich diese Entscheidung treffen ?" http://www.nachabtreibung.de/viewtopic.php?f=379&t=11120
If this had been about compliance to rules, there would have been a cut-and-dried answer for that. But the German verb 'dürfen' is not always used in this way. In this case, it's about this person's own moral compass, or his or her own decision, IMO.
Compare with this:
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Note added at 8 hrs (2018-11-25 00:13:07 GMT)
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"Heute ist es vier Wochen her dass ich mein Kind umgebracht habe. Ich kann an manchen Tagen gut damit umgehen, aber heute ist es besonders schlimm. Ich weiss nicht ob ich je wieder unbeschwert sein kann. Ich habe diese Kind gewollt, ich liebe und vermisse dieses Kind, und ich habe meine Ronja umgebracht, weil ich kein behindertes Kind wollte. Warum ? Hundertmal hab ich das hier gelesen, keine Antwort gefunden. Durfte ich diese Entscheidung treffen ?" http://www.nachabtreibung.de/viewtopic.php?f=379&t=11120
Note from asker:
| Compare with what? Looks like you've got a missing link there. |
20 hrs
Kirsten Bodart
United Kingdom
United Kingdom
Native in English
United Kingdom
smile, it's us
Native in: Dutch , English (Variant: UK)
Works in: Dutch to English, English to Dutch, Flemish to English, and 7 more.
Was removing my daughter's life support the right thing to do?
That's how I would paraphrase it. It's indeed about the moral aspect of it, so the strict dictionary definition of dürfen has very little to contribute to the translation.
Discussion
...
1. Moral Rights
***FINE POINT*** Along with the concepts of benefit and harm, one of concepts most commonly used in discussions of ethics is that of a moral right. A right is a justified claim, entitlement or assertion of what a rights-holder is due. For a person to have the moral right to have, get, or do something, there must be a moral basis or justification for the claim...
http://web.mit.edu/course/2/2.95j/readings/introethics_pt2.h...
Thanks very much for pointing me to the book itself; the key sentence that would have enabled me to understand was OMITTED from the article text I am translating. That sentence, which comes right after "...Konflikt geraten sind", is: "Der Patient zweifelt z. B. daran, ob er eine 'richtige' Entscheidung getroffen hat." Although I have been regularly consulting the limited parts of the book that are in the online preview, I missed this. Thanks very much.
First, what do you mean by "summary"? I found a book that contains this sentence. Right before this tidbit, it tells you all you need to (wondering whether they made the "right" decision).
Second, I concur with Thomas, though I am questioning the choice he made. Did he not just agree with Sangeeta, but went with Phil instead?
It's meaning 1c in the Duden:
"die moralische Berechtigung, das Recht haben, etwas zu tun (verneint)"
https://www.duden.de/rechtschreibung/duerfen
Curiously enough, this meaning is not part of Phil's Wiki link.
Quite literally, it would mean whether she has the right to do this (e.g., isn't it God's decision). It's about something like this here:
https://www.deathwithdignity.org/news/2017/08/liberty-choice
Best