Feb 19, 2020 10:13
4 yrs ago
45 viewers *
French term
meuble par nature
French to English
Law/Patents
Real Estate
Acte de Vente.
I assume "bien meuble" = "élément mobilier" = "meuble" herein.
This bit is talking about the object of a property management company associated with the property:
"6.3./2.1.) La propriété par tous moyens de droit, et notamment par voie de dotation ou d’abandonnement sans prix :
...
* non seulement de tous les immeubles par nature, par destination y attachés.
* non seulement de tous les éléments mobiliers par nature les garnissant, * mais encore la propriété par voie de délégation active et passive de tous les contrats et marchés de fournitures de fluides et de prescriptions et encore de tous contrats de travail, les uns et les autres à souscrire pour l’utilité de ses membres,
L’appropriation par tous modes d’acquisition de la propriété de tous autres biens immobiliers bâtis ou non bâtis, inclus ou non dans le périmètre de l’Association Foncière Urbaine Libre Générale et encore de tous autres biens meubles par nature nécessaires ou utiles.
La garde, la gestion, l’entretien, la maintenance et l’acquit des charges afférentes aux immeubles par nature par destination qui seront remis en dotation ou abandonnés sans prix à l’Association Foncière Urbaine Libre Générale , aux meubles par nature, les uns et les autres nécessaires à la destination et à la maintenance de l’ensemble immobiliers
6.3./2.2) La gestion, l’entretien et la maintenance de tous équipements collectifs immeubles par nature ou par destination et encore de tous meubles par nature et en particulier, celui des installations de nettoyage, stockage et évacuation des déchets, hygiène, dératisation, désinsectisation, sécurité, éclairage, signalisation, enlèvement des épaves aériennes et terrestres, enlèvement des boues et des neiges, etc…
6.3/2.4) La propriété, l’entretien et le fonctionnement de tous équipements immeubles par nature ou par destination et encore de tous meubles par nature sportifs, culturels, cultuels et de leurs annexes, dont la création serait dédiée, ultérieurement par l’Association Foncière Urbaine Libre Générale XXX ainsi que la réglementation de leur utilisation
"L’appropriation par tous modes d’acquisition de la propriété de tous autres biens immobiliers bâtis ou non bâtis, inclus ou non dans le périmètre de l’Association Foncière Urbaine Libre Spéciale et encore de tous autres biens meubles par nature nécessaires ou utiles ... "
I assume "bien meuble" = "élément mobilier" = "meuble" herein.
This bit is talking about the object of a property management company associated with the property:
"6.3./2.1.) La propriété par tous moyens de droit, et notamment par voie de dotation ou d’abandonnement sans prix :
...
* non seulement de tous les immeubles par nature, par destination y attachés.
* non seulement de tous les éléments mobiliers par nature les garnissant, * mais encore la propriété par voie de délégation active et passive de tous les contrats et marchés de fournitures de fluides et de prescriptions et encore de tous contrats de travail, les uns et les autres à souscrire pour l’utilité de ses membres,
L’appropriation par tous modes d’acquisition de la propriété de tous autres biens immobiliers bâtis ou non bâtis, inclus ou non dans le périmètre de l’Association Foncière Urbaine Libre Générale et encore de tous autres biens meubles par nature nécessaires ou utiles.
La garde, la gestion, l’entretien, la maintenance et l’acquit des charges afférentes aux immeubles par nature par destination qui seront remis en dotation ou abandonnés sans prix à l’Association Foncière Urbaine Libre Générale , aux meubles par nature, les uns et les autres nécessaires à la destination et à la maintenance de l’ensemble immobiliers
6.3./2.2) La gestion, l’entretien et la maintenance de tous équipements collectifs immeubles par nature ou par destination et encore de tous meubles par nature et en particulier, celui des installations de nettoyage, stockage et évacuation des déchets, hygiène, dératisation, désinsectisation, sécurité, éclairage, signalisation, enlèvement des épaves aériennes et terrestres, enlèvement des boues et des neiges, etc…
6.3/2.4) La propriété, l’entretien et le fonctionnement de tous équipements immeubles par nature ou par destination et encore de tous meubles par nature sportifs, culturels, cultuels et de leurs annexes, dont la création serait dédiée, ultérieurement par l’Association Foncière Urbaine Libre Générale XXX ainsi que la réglementation de leur utilisation
"L’appropriation par tous modes d’acquisition de la propriété de tous autres biens immobiliers bâtis ou non bâtis, inclus ou non dans le périmètre de l’Association Foncière Urbaine Libre Spéciale et encore de tous autres biens meubles par nature nécessaires ou utiles ... "
Proposed translations
(English)
Proposed translations
-1
9 mins
French term (edited):
meubles par nature
Selected
things that are, by definition, furniture or furnishings
I note that you have also highlighted "éléments mobiliers par nature", however you should distinguish between "éléments mobiliers" and "meubles". Also, "meubles" should be in the plural, not in the singular as you have put it in your header term.
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Note added at 13 mins (2020-02-19 10:27:04 GMT)
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The term "éléments mobiliers" = movable property, and includes not only furniture and furnishings, but other items as well, e.g books, ornaments, artwork etc.
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Note added at 1 hr (2020-02-19 11:59:02 GMT)
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@Asker
Harrap's Law Dictionary also gives it as "movable" or even "goods and chattels". However, as your text also uses the term "éléments mobiliers", it is reasonable to assume that they are distinguishing between them. It is also reasonable to assume that the use of the plural is significant. Harrap's also gives "meubles meublants" for household furniture, but I think that in normal use, even in legal documents, people would generally omit the "meublants" unless the context of the specific text gave rise to a need to include it.
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Note added at 40 days (2020-03-30 16:22:40 GMT) Post-grading
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@Asker
Thank you, but I think that Eliza's answer and comments have convinced me that she is right. Have a look at Wikipedia:
"The division of property into real and personal represents in a great measure the division into immovable and movable incidentally recognized in Roman law and generally adopted since. "Things personal," according to Blackstone, "are goods, money, and all other movables which may attend the owner's person wherever he thinks proper to go".[1] This identification of things personal with movables, though logical in theory, does not, as will be seen, perfectly express the English law, owing to the somewhat anomalous position of chattels real. In England real property is supposed to be superior in dignity to personal property, which was originally of little importance from a legal point of view. This view is the result of feudal ideas, and had no place in the Roman system, in which immovables and movables were dealt with as far as possible in the same manner, and descended according to the same rules. ..."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_property_law
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Note added at 13 mins (2020-02-19 10:27:04 GMT)
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The term "éléments mobiliers" = movable property, and includes not only furniture and furnishings, but other items as well, e.g books, ornaments, artwork etc.
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Note added at 1 hr (2020-02-19 11:59:02 GMT)
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@Asker
Harrap's Law Dictionary also gives it as "movable" or even "goods and chattels". However, as your text also uses the term "éléments mobiliers", it is reasonable to assume that they are distinguishing between them. It is also reasonable to assume that the use of the plural is significant. Harrap's also gives "meubles meublants" for household furniture, but I think that in normal use, even in legal documents, people would generally omit the "meublants" unless the context of the specific text gave rise to a need to include it.
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Note added at 40 days (2020-03-30 16:22:40 GMT) Post-grading
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@Asker
Thank you, but I think that Eliza's answer and comments have convinced me that she is right. Have a look at Wikipedia:
"The division of property into real and personal represents in a great measure the division into immovable and movable incidentally recognized in Roman law and generally adopted since. "Things personal," according to Blackstone, "are goods, money, and all other movables which may attend the owner's person wherever he thinks proper to go".[1] This identification of things personal with movables, though logical in theory, does not, as will be seen, perfectly express the English law, owing to the somewhat anomalous position of chattels real. In England real property is supposed to be superior in dignity to personal property, which was originally of little importance from a legal point of view. This view is the result of feudal ideas, and had no place in the Roman system, in which immovables and movables were dealt with as far as possible in the same manner, and descended according to the same rules. ..."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_property_law
Note from asker:
| Thanks. So what do you think is the distinction between "éléments mobiliers" and "meubles"? Are you really saying that "meubles" in a legal context is restrictively furniture? For reference, Bridge has "meuble" (in the singular!) = "movable". |
| précision: in fact Bridge does mainly use meubles as a plural adjective, but "meuble" (singular) is translated as "movable (property)"... and "meubles meublants" is said to be "furniture". |
Peer comment(s):
| agree |
AllegroTrans
: yes and the words that follow in the ST confirm; tempted to add "and effects"
8 mins
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Thanks. I think that "effects" comes under "éléments mobiliers", not under "meubles".
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| disagree |
Eliza Hall
: I initially thought you were right, but when I looked up "éléments mobiliers" in a FR legal dictionary, I found it is much broader. Details in discussion and my proposed answer.
3 hrs
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OK, I accept the results of your research.
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| disagree |
Daryo
: limiting to "furniture or furnishings" only is ways too narrow - "biens meubles par nature" is far wider concept, the fact that IN THIS ST these "biens meubles" are mainly "furnishings ..." is a red herring.
5 hrs
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3 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
Comment: "Thanks. "movables, movable items, personal property" seemed to convey the nuances, AFAIR"
+1
2 hrs
Adrian MM.
Austria
Austria
Native in English
Specializes in field
Austria
Retd.T&I, Barrister & Austro-Advokat
Native in: English (Variants: Scottish, British) 
Works in: Spanish to English, English to Spanish, French to English, and 5 more.
Related KudoZ points
:
81
French term (edited):
un meuble par nature
a (Scots law) movable by nature (E&W) intrinsically a chattel personal
(one third of) movables in Scots law are what next-of-kin automatically inherit and is a readymade Roman civil-law term.
In English & Welsh law, chattel personal contrasts with chattel real like, anomalously in E&W, leaseholds or in, US Am law, a motot car as a 'piece of real estate'.
par destination > by intended use(r) and not 'by destination' as fixtures & fittings cannot travel self-propelled.
éléments mobiliers: (Scots) movable items (E&W) fittings - as part of fixtures that cannot be detached and fittings than can be.
Biens meubles par nature: cf, Allegro's personal effects.
In English & Welsh law, chattel personal contrasts with chattel real like, anomalously in E&W, leaseholds or in, US Am law, a motot car as a 'piece of real estate'.
par destination > by intended use(r) and not 'by destination' as fixtures & fittings cannot travel self-propelled.
éléments mobiliers: (Scots) movable items (E&W) fittings - as part of fixtures that cannot be detached and fittings than can be.
Biens meubles par nature: cf, Allegro's personal effects.
Peer comment(s):
| agree |
Tony M
17 mins
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Thanks ,Tony - alas, the agree has been cancelled out by the predictable disagree from a non-lateral thinker.
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| disagree |
Eliza Hall
: Eléments mobiliers are not only movable ITEMS (objects) but also intangible property (trademarks, ownership interests in corporations etc.). And they're not "fittings" either (see discussion). BTW what do you mean re motor car/real estate?
9 hrs
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Movables in Scots law includes intangibles, plus you tell us how motor cars rank in US Federal tax law https://www.fool.com/investing/general/2015/05/29/the-states... cf. as chattels personal in E&W law.
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| agree |
AllegroTrans
: Back to +1 with (hopefully) lateral thinking
4 days
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Thanks and congrats on the bout of 'Edward de Bono' lateral thinking,
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3 hrs
Eliza Hall
United States
United States
Native in English
Works in field
United States
Lawyer-Translator-Certified Interpreter
Native in: English (Variants: US, Scottish, Canadian, Irish, British, UK)
Works in: French to English, English to French
Related KudoZ points
:
40
tangible personal property / tangible personalty
These terms (meuble par nature, meuble, éléments mobiliers) are NOT synonyms. They're closely related concepts, but not identical. As a general rule, if you're translating a legal contract and it uses similar but not identical terms, it's doing so because those are similar but not identical concepts.
Meubles par nature: "des corps qui peuvent se faire transporter d'un lieu à un autre... comme les animaux.... [ou] les choses inanimées." (Art. 528 Code Civil, https://cours-de-droit.net/la-notion-de-meuble-par-nature-de...
So those are physical objects ("des corps"). In EN we would use the term "tangible personal property" or "tangible personalty" (note that "person" includes corporate persons -- these things can be owned by businesses, nonprofits, etc., not just people).
Eléments mobiliers: this is much broader; it includes intangibles (e.g. stocks and bonds; contract rights; trademarks and other intellectual property; etc.).
As I mentioned in the discussion, a French legal dictionary defines "fonds de commerce" as "ensemble des éléments mobiliers corporels (matériel, outillage, marchandises) et incorporels (droit au bail, nom, enseigne) qu'un commerçant ou un industriel groupe et organise en vue de la recherche d'une clientèle, et qui constitue une entité juridique distincte..." (Lexique des termes juridiques 2018-2019 by Serge Guinchard, Thierry Debard).
So I would translate "éléments mobiliers" as "tangible and intangible personalty." (Or "tangible and intangible personal property," but I prefer the slightly shorter version.)
Meubles par nature: "des corps qui peuvent se faire transporter d'un lieu à un autre... comme les animaux.... [ou] les choses inanimées." (Art. 528 Code Civil, https://cours-de-droit.net/la-notion-de-meuble-par-nature-de...
So those are physical objects ("des corps"). In EN we would use the term "tangible personal property" or "tangible personalty" (note that "person" includes corporate persons -- these things can be owned by businesses, nonprofits, etc., not just people).
Eléments mobiliers: this is much broader; it includes intangibles (e.g. stocks and bonds; contract rights; trademarks and other intellectual property; etc.).
As I mentioned in the discussion, a French legal dictionary defines "fonds de commerce" as "ensemble des éléments mobiliers corporels (matériel, outillage, marchandises) et incorporels (droit au bail, nom, enseigne) qu'un commerçant ou un industriel groupe et organise en vue de la recherche d'une clientèle, et qui constitue une entité juridique distincte..." (Lexique des termes juridiques 2018-2019 by Serge Guinchard, Thierry Debard).
So I would translate "éléments mobiliers" as "tangible and intangible personalty." (Or "tangible and intangible personal property," but I prefer the slightly shorter version.)
Note from asker:
| Thanks. Do you see any difference between "biens meubles" and "meubles"? |
| Eliza, would you care to put some flesh on the bones of your assertion that these terms are not equivalent (i.e. evidence, hopefully with a link)? I've done a bit of searching on this and found, for example, that there is one reference to "éléments mobiliers" in the Code Civil, article 831-2. The official Légifrance translation has this as "movable items". Which isn't to say that these translations are gospel, or that there is no difference between "movables" and "movable items". It's just that when you assert something categorically as you have, it's always helpful to provide the kind of evidence that you yourself would not doubt demand. |
Peer comment(s):
| neutral |
B D Finch
: I think you are right, but wouldn't this be called "movable property" in England and Wales?
18 mins
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In common-law systems (UK, US, etc.), we don't distinguish between "movable and immovable" property but between "personal and real" property. It’s just a slightly different way of looking at the same thing. Personal = a person can take it with them.
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| neutral |
Daryo
: all good refs. but as this is happening in France, I would use "movable property" instead of "translating" in a different legal system.
2 hrs
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That works too.
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| neutral |
Adrian MM.
: your personalty is, again, basically a lift and twisting of my idea of chattels personal.//I deliberately eschewed personalty as it doesn't pluralis/ze as well as chattel personal cf. 'items of personalty'.
22 hrs
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As I'm sure you realize, all correct translations are synonyms of each other. Some are simply better phrased.
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+1
3 days 10 mins
essentially movable and tangible personal property
"essentially defined" as movable, tangible, personal property.
Peer comment(s):
| agree |
SafeTex
: I don't always like long headings but in this case I think that "essentially movable" is justified to rule out any doubt.
2 hrs
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Thanks
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Reference comments
2 hrs
Reference:
Meubles par nature, détermination et anticipation
This reference might help
Discussion
"Meubles par nature: "des corps qui peuvent se faire transporter d'un lieu à un autre... comme les animaux.... [ou] les choses inanimées." (Art. 528 Code Civil, https://cours-de-droit.net/la-notion-de-meuble-par-nature-de...
So those are physical objects ("des corps").... Eléments mobiliers: this is much broader; it includes intangibles (e.g. stocks and bonds; contract rights; trademarks and other intellectual property; etc.)...
A French legal dictionary defines "fonds de commerce" as "ensemble des éléments mobiliers corporels (matériel, outillage, marchandises) et incorporels (droit au bail, nom, enseigne) qu'un commerçant ou un industriel groupe et organise en vue de la recherche d'une clientèle, et qui constitue une entité juridique distincte..." (Lexique des termes juridiques 2018-2019 by Serge Guinchard, Thierry Debard)."
My confidence about legal terms comes from the fact that I'm a practicing lawyer, as well as a FR-EN-FR legal interpreter certified by my state's judicial system.
Yes. It's a broad legal term, and it should be translated by the equivalent broad legal term.
To illustrate by another example: just because the only vehicles mentioned in your whole ST are petrol cars for personal use doesn't mean that "vehicles" means ONLY that. IOW "biens meubles" are NOT fixings nor fittings, it's a much more general category.
As for "qui est le pendant de la catégorie des immeubles par destination"
le pendant de = it's a similar case i.e. here it's the opposite of what you would expect it to be:
les immeubles par destination = movable property that is considered as /seen as being immovable
and vice versa
les meubles par anticipation = (parts of) immovable property that is considered as /seen as being movable
What do you understand by this phrase "qui est le pendant de la catégorie des immeubles par destination"? Surely "afin de faciliter la commercialisation" puts this category of things into a different one to bog-standard "fittings" (in, for example, a residential property), doesn't it?
All this is also a bit off-topic... what's your opinion of the "meubles par nature"?
Paragraphe III. Les meubles par anticipation.
Il s’agit de la catégorie crée par la jurisprudence qui est le pendant de la catégorie des immeubles par destination.
Ce sont des immeubles à qui on va attribuer de manière anticipé un caractère immobilier afin de faciliter la commercialisation. Exemple : des récoltes vendues sur pied, les produits non encore extraits d’une carrière. En l’état ces récoltes et ces produits sont des immeubles par nature mais compte tenu de leur future commercialisation, c’est-à-dire de leur séparation du fond, on va les considérer comme des meubles de telle sorte que leur vente sera elle aussi mobilière.
https://cours-de-droit.net/la-notion-de-meuble-par-nature-de...
as for "immeubles par destination" the principle is very simple: these items on their own are movable property, but when functionally attached to an immovable property, they become also "immovable" themselves (because they are meant to be part of / used on that "immovable property" (farm, office block, residential block).
But what about "meubles d'un autre type" ? The next article, 529, hopefully gives a clue: "Sont meubles par la détermination de la loi les obligations et actions qui ont pour objet des sommes exigibles ou des effets mobiliers, les actions ou intérêts dans les compagnies de finance, de commerce ou d'industrie, encore que des immeubles dépendant de ces entreprises appartiennent aux compagnies. Ces actions ou intérêts sont réputés meubles à l'égard de chaque associé seulement, tant que dure la société. Sont aussi meubles par la détermination de la loi les rentes perpétuelles ou viagères, soit sur l'Etat, soit sur des particuliers."
Which of course is not the same as "meubles par destination". I searched in the Code Civil: only **immeubles** are found to be "par destination" therein.
so "biens meubles" has nothing to do with "les meubles" found in a house, it's even far wider than the distinction between 'fixtures' and 'fittings' - it's "movable property" in the most wider sense.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_property
"tous équipements immeubles par nature ou par destination" = what is physically attached to the property - can not be moved - or is functionally part of the property, even if you could move it elsewhere
vs
tous meubles par nature (sportifs, culturels, culturels) = all "movable property" of the "... par nature" variety
tous autres biens meubles par nature
=
any other items of property movable by their nature / that are intrinsically movable property ???
A French legal dictionary defines "fonds de commerce" as "ensemble des éléments mobiliers corporels (matériel, outillage, marchandises) et incorporels (droit au bail, nom, enseigne) qu'un commerçant ou un industriel groupe et organise en vue de la recherche d'une clientèle, et qui constitue une entité juridique distincte..." (Lexique des termes juridiques 2018-2019 by Serge Guinchard, Thierry Debard).
In this case I think it's talking implicitly about éléments mobiliers corporels, due to the context (talking about buildings and then about the éléments mobiliers "les garnissant"). But we should be aware that éléments mobiliers can be extremely broad, and if it is clearly talking about both corporels and incorporels éléments, it might best be translated as "tangible and intangible personalty" (personalty being movable personal property -- with "personal" including corporate persons -- as distinct from real property/immobilier).
And 'par destination' and 'par nature' is a distinction that AFAIK we don't usually make in EN.
Have you tried the glossary? I'm pretty sure we've had quite a bit of discussion around these terms in the past.